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  #1  
Old November 8th, 2018, 07:10 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Default Sad, tragic and unjustifiable, Mass Murder in a bar near me!

Awoke 30 min ago and picked up my phone for no reason: terrible news.

Man strode into a packed bar with hundreds of mostly college kids and threw in a smoke grenade and then killed the girl behind the bar and continued to shoot. Sheriff arrived and shot dead.

At end 12 dead and the gunman!

This is 2018 and we are still primitive.

Many wounded with glass getting through windows.


Asher
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  #2  
Old November 8th, 2018, 07:13 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Read more here.

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  #3  
Old November 8th, 2018, 07:18 AM
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“A hooded gunman wearing all black opened fire at a country dance bar holding a weekly "college night" in Southern California, using a handgun and a smoke device to kill 12 people and sending hundreds fleeing, authorities said Thursday.

Terrified revelers used barstools to break second-floor windows and jump to safety to escape the dance bar, where the gunman was later found dead.” Haaretz
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  #4  
Old November 8th, 2018, 02:23 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Terrible indeed.
Ban arms. ASAT
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  #5  
Old November 8th, 2018, 02:33 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Terrible indeed.
Ban arms. ASAT
My 7 and 10 year old grandchildren have active shooter “drills” with armed Kevlar vested deputies! Imagine this is normal and what it does to the kids’ sense of security.

We have a selfish immoral Republican Party in Power closely aligned with the gun lobby!

They have little appetite for gun control!

It’s disgusting. We have 14,000 troops on the Mexican border to “protect us” against the (fantasy) drug dealers, rapists, murders and “Middle Easterners”, said to be in the caravan of 2,000 folk escaping violence in Honduras and other South American countries! But we cannot consider protecting innocent children by banning firearms!

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  #6  
Old November 8th, 2018, 05:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Does this happen where you are? Do you think gun control in the USA will solve this or is this just part of society worldwide?

Asher
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  #7  
Old November 8th, 2018, 10:34 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Does this happen where you are? Do you think gun control in the USA will solve this or is this just part of society worldwide?

Asher
In Europe?
Nope, nada
Sometimes a lonesome guy kills his wife or a neighbor (generally because love jealousy/distress) but no mass murders as it happens in your country.
There surely are be some statistics, but I don't know where…

I do not take into account terrorists acts. They do not need to be allowed to buy arms…
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  #8  
Old November 8th, 2018, 10:57 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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We have had many examples of Republican candidates representing Jewish candidates with bulging eyes, elongated noses clutching wads of $100 notes and in the background a woman in a hospital bed not able to get care because the Jew has eaten the money. So is it not at all suprising we have a massacre in our synagogues? They are blaming “Globalists”, (that means Jews), for helping refugees come to the USA! That is the unforgivable crime! But what is the point of saying “Help the stranger!” If we don’t do that?

A White Protestants extremist fringe have been encouraged and given permission to behave as racists and act our against blacks, Hispanics and Jews. The latter, not so much here for “killing Jesus”, as I. Europe, but mostly for campaigning for the rights of minorities. Jews are considered scheming traitors to “the white race” allowing blacks and brown folk to stand up and look directly into the eyes of whites as apparent equals! So Jews are blamed for every Black TV announcer or politician as if the Jews are traitors to sonecwhite dream!

In Europe it’s much less complicated. Antisemitism is based on killing Gods son and controlling the world, LOL!

Amazing to me that the antisemites have no problem buying drones or guns from the Jewish State.

That’s how stupid it all is.

I teach my children to treasure other folks children, no exceptions.

I am grateful for the maturity and friendship here.

I am committed to the ideas of the British Philosphers, Locke, Berkeley and Hume and the French Assemblies evolved idea of the rights of the citizen!

Asher
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  #9  
Old November 8th, 2018, 11:11 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Just about ten days before last week’s Pittsburgh “Tree of Life” Synagogue massacre, a white supremicist gunman tried to break into a Black night club, but security was too impressive, so he went to a five and dime store and found to black men and executed them with bullets at the back of her head.

But it was only 2 men killed so it is below the threshold of “4” so it’s not a “mass shooting”!

Imagine if the night club had no impressive armed security!

Asher
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  #10  
Old November 8th, 2018, 11:26 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Since the folk here came from Europe?

What happened?

Asher
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  #11  
Old November 9th, 2018, 01:12 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post

Imagine if the night club had no impressive armed security!

Asher
Imagine if no one were allowed to own firearms…
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  #12  
Old November 9th, 2018, 01:19 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Since the folk here came from Europe?

What happened?

Asher
Je ne suis ni historien ni sociologue…
I do not want to argue with clichés.
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  #13  
Old November 9th, 2018, 01:20 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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I am allowed to have any weapon I want. However, I am frightened I might be angry and grab that gun or innthr middle of the night catch an intruder and then discover, too
Late it’s my own son!

You are correct, Nicolas!

No way I would take these risks.

I would rather have the police well trained and ban private citizens from having guns.

At the very least, gun owners should have to undergo screening and training.

Asher
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  #14  
Old November 9th, 2018, 02:59 AM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Liberato, a companion from my primary school agrees with the dissemination of guns among the population regarding their own defense.

On the contrary, I am clearly on the opposite side.

Just a thought !
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  #15  
Old November 9th, 2018, 03:06 AM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
In Europe?
Nope, nada
Sometimes a lonesome guy kills his wife or a neighbor (generally because love jealousy/distress) but no mass murders as it happens in your country.
There surely are be some statistics, but I don't know where…
I do not take into account terrorists acts. They do not need to be allowed to buy arms…
France has other problems related to the heritage of former colonies. What curiously - or perhaps not - doesn't happen in Portugal.

In the 60ies many Portuguese emigrated to France. They suffered, worked and today they are merged/melted in the French society. We all have a cultural common background !

In Portugal to own a gun you must have a permission. Good !
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  #16  
Old November 9th, 2018, 03:13 AM
Jarmo Juntunen Jarmo Juntunen is offline
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Xenophobia and sheer racism are on the rise everywhere in Europe. Finland is no exception. Finland is also sadly high in European violence stats, especially when it comes to domestic violence. But we haven't had mass killings in years and gun control is probably one of the tightest in the world (and still we have a huge number of firearms, owing to a high number of hunters). What we over here can not understand is the reaction on the US decision making level to this tragic events. Thought and prayers? Now that's a big help.
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  #17  
Old November 9th, 2018, 03:21 AM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmo Juntunen View Post
Xenophobia and sheer racism are on the rise everywhere in Europe. Finland is no exception. Finland is also sadly high in European violence stats, especially when it comes to domestic violence. But we haven't had mass killings in years and gun control is probably one of the tightest in the world (and still we have a huge number of firearms, owing to a high number of hunters). What we over here can not understand is the reaction on the US decision making level to this tragic events. Thought and prayers? Now that's a big help.
Prayers ? Come on Jarmo...

Money makes the World go round... if you know what I mean !
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  #18  
Old November 9th, 2018, 03:28 AM
Jarmo Juntunen Jarmo Juntunen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
Prayers ? Come on Jarmo...

Money makes the World go round... if you know what I mean !
Of course, Antonio. But thoughts and prayers seems to be the only reaction especially Republicans are willing to give.
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  #19  
Old November 9th, 2018, 05:28 AM
Peter Dexter Peter Dexter is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Does this happen where you are? Do you think gun control in the USA will solve this or is this just part of society worldwide?

Asher
Colombia where I live has a violent gun deaths rate of almost twenty six per one hundred thousand people compared to the rate in the US of something under four. What's interesting is that despite the high rate mass gun killings like this one don't occur except as organized operations carried out by guerrilla or drug gangs with the specific intent of intimidating a populace. Other group killings are always reprisals or robberies. They may exist but I have personally never heard or read about truely "random" killing by an individual based on hatred or other motives.
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  #20  
Old November 9th, 2018, 05:51 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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For me personally, I thought I had left behind much of racism when I left the UK and became a US citizen. I thought “ Well the USA was racist but they are really mending their hearts!”

Trump has empowered the occult and suppressed hereditary xenophobia, brought from their countries of origin orclearned here. His base is at least 30 % what Europe would call “Fascist”! Another part is ignorant hyper-belief in Protestant Christianity as the only religion of salvation for man and the “sewage level” inferiority if anyone who does have the “Holy Spirit” in their hearts. They hate gays, but screw in prison, they hate Hispanics, but use them for cheap labor, they oppose abortion but actually are hypocrites.

Normally, a leader here, after being made President, is the “United”. Trump is a divider and every day spouts Goebels hatred in “dog whistles”.

However, he has forced the Democratic Party to renew itself. We have taken over the House if Representatives and now Trump has “oversight” and anyone corrupt will be exposed.

Trump is a boil on the arse of an “Olympic Long Distance Runner”! The boil will nurse and the evil will come out and the skin will heal.

Hopefully, the athlete will be wiser about his lifestyle!

Asher
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  #21  
Old November 9th, 2018, 05:54 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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......and guns?

We will start to control them!

At least if one has mental problems and cannot fly on a plane, or beats his wife or mother, he has no place owning any gun!

Now he can own any gun and buy large magazines and a bump stock for rapid fire!

Asher
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  #22  
Old November 9th, 2018, 06:01 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarmo Juntunen View Post
Of course, Antonio. But thoughts and prayers seems to be the only reaction especially Republicans are willing to give.
“Thoughts and prayers” from one of us, is actually almost expected! After all we are a family. For powerful politicians, it’s an insult!

After all they get funds from the National Rifle Association to keep buying of any gun, by anyone without training or efficient checks!

This to me is despicable!

Asher
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  #23  
Old November 9th, 2018, 08:36 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Nicolas,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Imagine if no one were allowed to own firearms…
That would actually be my personal preference. But in the US, I am afraid it is far out of reach. And even if it were enacted, there is such a gigantic pool of firearms in circulation (over one per capita, it is estimated). And sadly, they are not biodegradable, nor do they have a finite service life, like the battery in my Bluetooth headset.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #24  
Old November 9th, 2018, 11:18 AM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Who cares ?
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Old November 9th, 2018, 12:04 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
“Who cares”

About what?

“The millions of guns in circulation in the USA” or what?
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  #26  
Old November 9th, 2018, 12:11 PM
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The millions of guns in circulation in the USA, the destroyed lives, the dead...

Which measures are implemented in the US about this problem ?
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  #27  
Old November 9th, 2018, 01:11 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
The millions of guns in circulation in the USA, the destroyed lives, the dead...

Which measures are implemented in the US about this problem ?
We all care! However, the gun lobby is powerfully funded and links up with the Evangelical movement and they join forces to vote against controlling guns, allowing abortions, limiting gay rights and so are stronger than the rest of us.

Blacks had their president, and after that sat on their hands, women had rights to abortions, so ignored hate of Hispanics, Jews supported the underdogs and so were excluded from "whiteness" and branded as "globalists". That is much more polite than saying "killers of God"!

We need to join together ALL THE TIME and stop pandering to Trump as he might support something we like today, but the future is grim for all of us if we have a fragmented society.

The "Right to Bare Arms" is really more important in the USA than the right to health care, pure water for our children or the survival of plants and animals!

but think about, folk believe in these things as religious tribal essentials that they think or existential. That is why folk are willing to die for their religious beliefs. It may seem illogical, but try having a public roast of a cow for a cookout in India or a pork barbecue in Mea Shearim in Jerusalem ands people would be killed in the service of the Supreme all merciful Deity!

Right to bear arms is one of those phases like
  • "Women belong in the kitchen"
  • "I must be called she and shower with the girls, because I say I'm a woman"
  • "The Earth is just 5000 years old!"
  • "God is male"
  • "God blesses fighter bombers!"
  • God as monkey, elephant, snake and figures, as Man with a surname and miracles, for a flair of credibility
  • "Selective moral outrage" no abortions.............but one can carpet bomb Kurds or Houthi.
All these concepts can be argued. But advocates for and against are really just infected with an unsupportable cultural idea. Believers really are in serious bubbles of delusion!

Most of the above ideas are resistant to logical argument. however, for survival, Muslim immigrants to Europe are starting to concert to Christianity as folk did to Islam in the first places overrun by the Caliphates' armies over a millennium ago.

For most conditions, folk won't change their mind. However, if everyone who converted to belief in Buddha got 5 million US $ and would be free of illness, most of us would be\come Buddhists......and eat the Rohinga, if asked!

In the USA, we are not going to easily persuade folk to be tolerant and treasure each other's children as their own. but we can make alliances while clinging on to our cultural beliefs, despite being unsupported by logic. All for the greater good.

So, in the USA, we need to make alliances of a progressive social agenda, but support a capitalistic economy. The gun rights concept does not need to be abolished, but curtailed at least like the rights to drive cars....... but not as restrictive as getting a license to do brain surgery......with a gun or otherwise!

Asher
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  #28  
Old November 9th, 2018, 02:02 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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I am hoping that America wakes up and unites against xenophobia and curtails the ownership of guns by anyone who either by deeds, such as wife-beating, or their own speech calling other groups as vermin or the equivalent.

I am optimistic that we will survive and heal but many more massacres in kindergartens, schools, restaurants, cinemas, concerts, clubs and churches will have occurred before “prayer and thoughts” are replaced by political backbone to stop incitement and the guns to carry out whims of murder!

Asher
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  #29  
Old November 9th, 2018, 04:32 PM
Peter Dexter Peter Dexter is online now
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In the city of Cali in order to get a permit to carry a firearm you must make out an application that includes a letter from a psychiatrist stating that you are of sound mind that is submitted to the local Army base. Upon approval you must purchase the weapon from that Army base as well. There are no legal gun stores. The permit describes the weapon exactly and even includes the number and caliber of bullets you’re allowed to have on your person . All of this is routinely circumvented by bad guys and even good guys but if you are caught in possession of or using an unregistered weapon in a self defense situation you can be in big trouble.

Of course there are huge numbers of unregistered weapons in the hands of criminals in the city. For those who can’t afford the purchase there are even clandestine rental outlets in the more dangerous barrios where the bad guy can rent a weapon, anything from a hand gun to an AK 47 to commit a particular crime.

When my wife at the time and I moved to a property in the country we initially believed we would need a gun or two for self defense and started the application process. However I came to realize that the only reason bad guys would come to my property would be to rob and the kinds of things they would steal are all replaceable. I also realized that if I were to shoot and kill or wound one of them we would absolutely have to leave because he or a relative would be gunning for us in reprisal in the future. Decided to skip the guns.

In Cali and other Colombian cities killing with guns is a descreet basiness . There are “oficinas de cobro” where you can hire a killer, often 17 years old to avoid being charged as an adult, to “acabar con” a person who owes you money, a person you owe money to, a disloyal girlfriend or retribution for what ever fits your fancy. These crimes are carried out by two men on a motorcycle, the one in back being the shooter. For this reason there is even a law enacted that prohibits two men on a motorcycle (though I often see it ignored). And there is even a preferred motorcycle, a 2 cycle Yamaha RX 115, sufficiently powerful and quick (while not costing too much) to escape pursuit by the gendarmes. The cost for suc h would be the equivalent of several hundred to a thousand dollars depending on profile of the victim and difficulty.
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Old November 9th, 2018, 04:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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So in your city, if you wish to die, all you have to do is tell someone to flick off!

....and perhaps it is essential to do it in public, poor beer on his pants and hand him a little American flag ..........and pin a rose on his shirt!

Here just go to a club or a rock concert!




I wonder whether a key part of the mass killer’s
motivation is to cease being utterly unimportant?
In one act of craziness, he gets total relevance!


Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; November 9th, 2018 at 08:08 PM.
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