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Light complexion and the sun

Ron Morse

New member
This is my daughter Sonya on Benson an American warmblood.
20D-Tamron 24-135-ISO 200-74mm-f/7.1-1/800

At horse shows you have no choice of when or where you take shots. This was taken at home late afternoon. I fairly often get the faces like my daughters came out when the sun is bright and hitting right on the face. What do I need to do different? Or does it need to be done in the PP?

 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hi Ron,

Could you post her face only so we can discuss complexion. The issue is redness from the reaction of the light skin to sun? Or is it the harsh light at midday which effects everyone or what?

I hope we can give some ideas.

Asher
 

Ron Morse

New member
Hi Ron,

Could you post her face only so we can discuss complexion. The issue is redness from the reaction of the light skin to sun? Or is it the harsh light at midday which effects everyone or what?

I hope we can give some ideas.

Asher


Its the harsh light Asher. My daughter is very light complected. I've noticed that people with darker skin don't give the same problem nearly as bad.
I will see if I can find an other image that I won't have to crop as much to post.
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
This is my daughter Sonya on Benson an American warmblood.
20D-Tamron 24-135-ISO 200-74mm-f/7.1-1/800

At horse shows you have no choice of when or where you take shots. This was taken at home late afternoon. I fairly often get the faces like my daughters came out when the sun is bright and hitting right on the face. What do I need to do different? Or does it need to be done in the PP?


Hi Ron!

The best way to avoid those is to photograph RAW or to set the aperture/time lower when you see the light is hard and very intensive.
RAW gives the best dynamic - with the 20D it´s 12bit instead of 8bit/chan. Generating a TIFF from a RAW-file in a RAW-converter gives a wide range of tones to compensate over- and underexposured parts in a picture.

best, Klaus
 

Ron Morse

New member
Thanks Klaus.
I got the 20D shortly after they came out and just about everything I have ever shot has been in RAW. This shot was a RAW. However faces and skys always give me lots of trouble.
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
Thanks Klaus.
I got the 20D shortly after they came out and just about everything I have ever shot has been in RAW. This shot was a RAW. However faces and skys always give me lots of trouble.


Hi Ron!

Which RAW converter do you use? Could you link the original RAW-file?

best, Klaus

here´s a little correction - the hard and deep shadows in the face you can only handle by either a fill-in flash fron the camera´s point of view or by trying to make two or three DRI-files out of one RAW-file.
But i doubt that it could work in this case. Sometimes it´s a way.

Ron.jpg
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
One cannot escape extremes of dynamic range by simply changing the exposure, since either the bright side or the dark side will be rendered poorly. One needs instead to decrease the spread in exposure between both side of her face. Here are some ideas:


  • Reflector/light to fill in the dark side. This will always give the best result as opening up shadows in PS afterwards reveals noise as the area is often captured with very few photons in each photosite and so there has to be a lot of amplification to get this image to be rendered.

  • Use semi transparent sheet to tame the sunlight and diffuse it.

  • Shoot RAW exposed as far to the right as possible and then over expose .5 to 1 stop. Process the RAW image for the light side and the shadows and combine in P.S. This option one should always be prepared for as it at least allows the spread of exposure to be managed in post processing and does not require lights/reflectors.

  • Flash to one side using a modifier, a neutral density filter or an assistant!

  • A shaded area


Asher
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Ron,

I don't see this as a portrait of your daughter - her face area is about 1% the area of the horse, 0.23529% of the total image area. The clothing, background, distracting heavy helmet, sunglasses, etc. blend or distract from her face. The horse is great, however, and that is what I look at. So, if you fiddle around trying to expose or whatever for your daughter's face when you take the shot, the horse will be messed up, a much bigger area to deal with in pp.

In pp a few minutes work will get it exactly as you want it. A method I tried, is to copy the background to a new layer, then select the face, and copy the selection to a new layer, turn off the other layers. In the face layer, zoom in, and adjust the gamma, hue, whatever beyond what would look nice. Turn on the background copy, then adjust the opacity of the face layer until the total image looks right for you.

What looks right in a photo is never what it looks like for real (unless it's, say, a 1 to 1 photocopy) - scale comes into play, peripheral vision, loads of stuff. Also, of course, how you see your daughter in a photo, is not the same as others see her.

Ron, I think you need to let yourself go - do lots more pp, have some fun. An oval frame, blur the background, the horse stepping out of the frame. ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
I personally would have underexposed that shot by about 2/3rd, just to retain more detail in the girls face and jacket.

Hi Steve!

This way the deep shadows are even deeper - the better way would be, as i said before and Asher also suggested, to spread the RAW into 3 "exposures": one - 1 or 1 1/2 stop to get the face correct, one at level and one +1 or 1 1/2 over"exposured" to get some halftones into the shadows.
A combination of the 3 "exposures" in Photomatix or even in PS would surely help.

Nevertheless such hard sun light falling from the side at nearly 90dgree always need a fill-in light - either a flash or a big dish. Flash is far easier . . ;-)
It´s always good in such situations to have the flash equipped with a warm-tone filter and adjust it about - 1/2 to look naturally.

best, Klaus
 

Ron Morse

New member
Thanks everyone. I'm really glad that I put this up. It has got me thinking about my ventures with the horse shows. I started taking pictures at the shows because of my daughter. She started taking lessons at the age of 4. She started competeing that summer in a little lead line class and has gone up to just 2 levels below the olympic level now with the olympics in mind at the age of 20.

I don't have a web site and only put up a little card at the shows. In a short time I was getting e-mail after every show asking if I got pictures of someone or not and especially if I got shots of someones children. I was getting $10.00 for a 4x6 and $25.00 for a 8x10. The thought of making real money never occured to me since I was having fun.

Last summer I never attended a single show since I was having so many failures with the focus and was ready to go back to film. Out of 100 shots it was a good day if I had 20 in focus. Being used to film I believed people when they told me it was me not the camera and after buying everything people recommended and still having the same problem I was totally discouraged. I sent the camera back to canon for repair. They found both the focus and exposure off as I understand their letter. At any rate it is now what it should have been in the beginning.

I spent a lot of time last evening looking at horse show photographer websites and found that almost all sell shots no better than this and some much worse. They have the horse right and very often the rider is not. My daughter competed out of state last year on the east coast. She got a picture last summer from a photographer that I would have deleted. The timing was perfect but other than that it was terrible. From my experience what most people care about is that the horse is looking just right with the rider second as long as the rider is close. but not all people. Don't get me wrong. This was just a trial shot for the camera after getting it back from canon late last fall while Sonya was giving big Benson a workout. I took this just a few weeks after rotator cuff surgery while still in a sling and after just going to CF 4-3 for the first time. This picture and the others I took HURT A LOT but I now love the CF 4-3 function.

Steve I'm trying to get the best of both worlds. Probably not possible with this type of photography without a lot of PP. I'm afraid people would not accept the horse underexposed.

Klaus and Asher thanks for the suggestions. As far as reflectors and flash go a person would be expelled for using them. Imagine a horse running or going over a jump and a flash spooking the horse. Some horses would spook if you just clapped your hands. At a horse show a couple of summers ago a lady came to me and said she had seen some of my pictures and wanted me to take some of the 2 horses that she had just had flown in from Germany on a 747. It was raining and my wife was holding a umbrella over my camera. I took pictures of the first just fine. When it came to the second horse the ladys trainer came to me and in a very rude manner told me to get that umbrella out of their before I spooked the horse. I in a very civil tone told her that the owner should have explained that to me so that she ( the trainer ) wouldn't have had to be so obnoxious to others. Her face got red but she didn't say any more. I was luckey that day with almost all the ladys shots in focus but not one in focus for my daughter.

It is impossible for me to make adjustments on the fly. The horses are running in and out of shadows, in and out of the bright harsh sun and often timed so they are going as fast as they can. I use AV with at least 1/500 with an ISO high enough to keep 1/500. I have tried EV but I think AV worked better. May be it will be different now that the camera works.

Ray it's not a portrait of my daughter. As you said it more about the horse. I would just like to get the face better but I think that will be less of a concern from now on. I once did a picture for a lady and told her I was sorry that her face didn't come out perfect. She said she didn't care because it was all about the horse anyway. I must look into the layer method. I don't have much practice their. It might be worth the extra work when I get that one great shot that needs it.

After looking at other sites I don't think that I will worry as much about the riders face as much any more. I really don't want to spend all the time working on hundreds of shots as it would take. Although I would like to get it as close as I can.

I think that after I get the 1DMIII with some help from my friends here. I may have a go at a website to sell some of my horse shot instead of just tacking up a card.

With in the next 2 to 4 weeks I am putting in a new riding arena for my daughter with lots of jumps. This should give me lots of practice with the MIII before I try to sell anything on a website.

I have worried all my life about getting things perfect. I hope I am heading in the right direction.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ron,

There are a number of subjects you brought up and started a helpful discussion. We only touched on a few aspects of your picture. The rider and the horse, but only focus and lighting.

Now let's talk about the picture, I hope that's O.K. This was taken, after all as a portrait. May we discuss this itself now and go beyond her face? I'd like to consider position, compositon, balance, foreground, background and so forth. If you like we can hold off.

Asher
 

Ron Morse

New member
Ron,

There are a number of subjects you brought up and started a helpful discussion. We only touched on a few aspects of your picture. The rider and the horse, but only focus and lighting.

Now let's talk about the picture, I hope that's O.K. This was taken, after all as a portrait. May we discuss this itself now and go beyond her face? I'd like to consider position, compositon, balance, foreground, background and so forth. If you like we can hold off.

Asher


Asher we can discuss it anyway anyone pleases. I have big shoulders and am not upset the least by criticism that is well ment. Bear in mind that this and about 45 other shots were only taken as a test to see how the camera focused after its return from canon with no regard what so ever about anything else. When I noticed my daughters face I wondered if their was a simple way around it. With that said I would appreciate any pointers that I get. So please feel free to discuss it or any other part of my post.
 

Klaus Esser

pro member
Asher we can discuss it anyway anyone pleases. I have big shoulders and am not upset the least by criticism that is well ment. Bear in mind that this and about 45 other shots were only taken as a test to see how the camera focused after its return from canon with no regard what so ever about anything else. When I noticed my daughters face I wondered if their was a simple way around it. With that said I would appreciate any pointers that I get. So please feel free to discuss it or any other part of my post.

Hey Ron!

I understand your problems and conflicts. But there has a compromise to be made. The best one regarding your limitations would be to choose a camera´s viewpoint with the sun in your back or at least not in an angle bigger than 30degree. And to shoot RAW at max. 200ASA. Above that contrast get´s harder. You can make an action in Photoshop or Canon´s DPP to make spreaded DRI from one RAW if it´s the ultima ratio.
There´s no difference in that between a 20D or 1DIII. The 1DsMkII has a somewhat greater dynamik - but a really wider dynamik you have only with digibacks - around 12 steps in one shot.

But the main problem is the direction/angle of hard sunlight.

best, Klaus
 

Ron Morse

New member
Hey Ron!

I understand your problems and conflicts. But there has a compromise to be made. The best one regarding your limitations would be to choose a camera´s viewpoint with the sun in your back or at least not in an angle bigger than 30degree. And to shoot RAW at max. 200ASA. Above that contrast get´s harder. You can make an action in Photoshop or Canon´s DPP to make spreaded DRI from one RAW if it´s the ultima ratio.
There´s no difference in that between a 20D or 1DIII. The 1DsMkII has a somewhat greater dynamik - but a really wider dynamik you have only with digibacks - around 12 steps in one shot.

But the main problem is the direction/angle of hard sunlight.

best, Klaus

Thanks for the tips Klaus. I do try to keep the sun at my back but it isn't always possible. I will work harder on finding the right spot during the stadium jumping.

Two of my main reasons for going to the MIII are the focusing accuracy on a fast running horse over the 20D and quite important to me is the ISO in the view finder. I couldn't count the times I have had the ISO cranked up indoors and hurried out side to catch something else and forgot to turn down the ISO since I couldn't see it in the viewfinder. Also I seldom get a burst going over a jump of more than 4 before the horse lands with the 20D. With the MIII set for 8 I might get the perfect timing. I always delete the jump shots that I don't want while I am waiting for the next rider to keep from filling my cards. Their are also a lot of other things that I am anxious to try with the MIII. I am keeping the 20D since I like it a lot after canon fixed the focus and exposure. I have no doudts that I will be the same guy taking the pictures after I get the new camera. If I can afford it and it makes this older guy happy, why not get it.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ron,

If I was wealthy, I'd buy you a 1D Mark III before I treated myself. You'll really like the ability to catch focus if it delivers as promised and you'll get the extra dynamic range! Your daughter and the horse too will be impressed!

Asher
 
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Chip Springer

New member
One way to fix it in PS is by making a Selective Color Adjustment layer/RED and darken with the bottom slider. I usually add a little yellow to skin. If needed, invert the mask and paint over area with a white brush.
 
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