• Please use real names.

    Greetings to all who have registered to OPF and those guests taking a look around. Please use real names. Registrations with fictitious names will not be processed. REAL NAMES ONLY will be processed

    Firstname Lastname

    Register

    We are a courteous and supportive community. No need to hide behind an alia. If you have a genuine need for privacy/secrecy then let me know!
  • Warning: and are NSFW. Threads may start of as text only but then pictures could be added as part of a discussion or to make some point. This is not for family viewing without a parent's consent and supervision. If you are under age 18, please do not use this section
  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Beyond the Poetry of Donne, "For whom does the Bell Toll?

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Fahim posted a wonderful photograph and an excerpt of poetry, here. So how do these great words apply to the real world where institutions have great, (often secret), power over the individual.



Fahim,

Sorry, my good friend, I love poetry, but Donne is either somewhat delusional or out of contact with what actually is happening to people in the reach and influence of the Chiurch!

I think that his noble words refer to an institution in his mind, not the one that actually exists on planet earth! His vision does not extend much beyond the reach of the candlelight and incense around him. I'm not implying that Donne was not a great poet, far from it! But I do think he was detached from the reality of the landscape in which the church functioned in his time and until our time.

This does not take away one iota from the abundant good deeds of Christians as part of the life of service to others. However, more is demanded of the leaders of institutions, very much more. For as they increase in power, they also need to educate themselves as to the realities of the world in which they operate, far beyond the ceremonies in the beautiful sanctuaries they preside over.

Unfortunately for us, "The Bell tools for us!" if we fall for the beautiful poetics and ignore reality.

"And when she buries a man, that action concerns me: all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God's hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again for that library where every book shall lie open to one another. "

We'd derive from this that the Church would value even the, (defenseless and dirt-poor), unwed girls with a child sent to their custody and care.

Yet in practice, 800 children of unwed young mothers were buried without Christian burial and excluded from the hallowed ground of a Christian cemetery! This is causing pain and anger in Ireland. The Irish government paid the convent for food and care of each mother and child. So how could they die in such numbers? Surely malnutrition would be impossible under these circumstances! Still, the deaths occurred under the watch of a local nunnery regularly, without any eyebrows raised, over a 36 year period from 1925 ending in 1961! In the Los Angeles times, today, the incident just received a trivial low level, inner page announcement not mentioning "when" this occurred or the extreme magnitude of the mass deaths, about 22 per year!! Read more here. So the poetic words of John Dunne, beyond being beautiful, have nothing to do with the reality of the matter.

All credit to the Archbishop Michael Neary, who heads the Tuam archdiocese in Ireland, who has supported a non-church inquiry to the horrific local finds. After all, if this actually occurred under the watch of the nuns, we have to look at all the Church-run homes for unwed mothers, all over Ireland. This one Catholic priest is the one who should be praised from the Vatican, not just the Popes recently Canonized so readily. Forget about proving miracles! This Archbishop actually has admitted what was done wrong and wants no role for the Church to hide nasty secrets that may be revealed. Bravo!!!!!

Still, "the bell tolls for us" if we believe in any institutions. The more powerful they grow, the more corrupt they can become. So assume it's normal for large inbred institutions with clout and influence to be significantly corrupt. It follows that we must look to and depend on whistle blowers and those with a conscience, to allow the public to rein in usurped power and excesses that take away from the dignity and rights of the public and the individual.

It's individuals of the of this Archbishop, (and apparently selfless whistleblowers such as Snowdon), that allow us the rein in institutions that consider themselves too important to be bound by decency and respect for the humble person, unable to defend his/herself against the institutions of power and influence.

Asher
 
A strange post, Asher my good friend.

1. The link to "Fahim's post" shows pictures of an infant but nothing contributed by Fahim. [link corrected July 20th 2014]

2. Donne died in 1631 yet you criticize that he "ignore[d] reality" using evidence from an events that occurred in the mid-20th century. How realistic is that?!!!

I think I understand the intent of your post and am not unsympathetic. Since the times of the Renaissance and Enlightenment, Western thought optimistically assumed a progression toward greater civilization of people despite occasional relapses. In some ways that has been the case. But remember also that mass killings and genocides reached their apex in the 20th and 21st centuries with WWs 1 and 2, Hiroshima, Iraq, providing just some examples. The provocative agents in these examples were the state rather than Donne's church.

Donne was a poet who tried to express a philosophy and dream in artistic terms. The contributors here are photographers that express themselves in artistic terms; at their best, their photographs express a philosophy and a dream. Some like me (and I suspect you) have non-religious philosophies different from Donne, but we share elements of his dream. However, given evidence from the recent past and the news broadcasts on any given night, the philosophies that uphold our dreams may "ignore reality" no less than did John Donne.

Cheers
Mike
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Donne died in 1631 yet you criticize that he "ignore[d] reality" using evidence from an events that occurred in the mid-20th century. How realistic is that?!!!

The Inquisition by the Church of Rome started in the 11th Century, my good friend.

Donne lived in a world with a constant background of its continued acquisition an misuse of imperial power. "By 1256 inquisitors were given absolution if they used instruments of torture." and "Arguably the most famous case tried by the Roman Inquisition involved Galileo Galilei in 1633." Wikipedia. so this indicates the reach of the church into everyday life and thinking at the time of Donne's life.

Certainly, the Anglican version of the established Catholic Church, besides swopping out the Throne of England for the Papal authority as head of the church, still continued much of its ceremony and certainly is custom of torturing dissenters or those deemed potentially untrustworthy. "

Donne's brother Henry was also a university student prior to his arrest in 1593 for harbouring a Catholic priest, William Harrington, whom he betrayed under torture.[5] Harrington was tortured on the rack, hanged until not quite dead, and then subjected to disembowelment.[5] Henry Donne died in Newgate prison of bubonic plague, leading Donne to begin questioning his Catholic faith."

So while Donne exercised power in the new Anglican Church, he was unrealistic about it's practical effect on the lives of so many Catholics who still had allegiance to the Pope. His poetry was magically divorced from this reality.

Asher
 
The Inquisition by the Church of Rome started in the 11th Century, my good friend.

Donne lived in a world with a constant background of its continued acquisition an misuse of imperial power. "By 1256 inquisitors were given absolution if they used instruments of torture." and "Arguably the most famous case tried by the Roman Inquisition involved Galileo Galilei in 1633." Wikipedia. so this indicates the reach of the church into everyday life and thinking at the time of Donne's life.
Asher

Points taken, Asher, but the historical evidence cited here is not the content of your original post, which is what I responded to. I try to be a logical thinker and find it hard to blame someone for what happened before and centuries after his death. What occurred during his lifetime and he was complicit in is another matter entirely.

Perhaps Donne did not "ignore reality" but was a bad guy gifted in poetry who participated willingly in the violent reality of his time. What do you think?

Cheers
Mike
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Points taken, Asher, but the historical evidence cited here is not the content of your original post, which is what I responded to. I try to be a logical thinker and find it hard to blame someone for what happened before and centuries after his death. What occurred during his lifetime and he was complicit in is another matter entirely.

Perhaps Donne did not "ignore reality" but was a bad guy gifted in poetry who participated willingly in the violent reality of his time. What do you think?

Cheers
Mike

Mike, I have not researched enough, but so far, discover that he was a guy who spend a lot of his money on "womanizing" until he was broke! However, because of his scholarship and intellect paradoxically he rose to accept high office in the church! The torture under the authority of the Crown as head of the English Church, was current during his creative writing period as far as I can tell right now. So he was aware of the on going cruelty. Actually was perhaps more devoted to his creative poetry and even love sonnets. He seems, with my limited facts so far, to, perhaps, have been distracted by this poetic skill of his. So his poetry refers to a magical world of the privileged, not the real one that the common man, a lot of Catholics, suffered under. So far, I don't get the impression that he was evil, but perhaps just passive on political matters until too late.

Still, to his credit, he did address social issues in his early writings. But perhaps his underlying family memory of the Catholic Martyrdom of his executed relative, Sir Thomas Moore, for being candid about his opinions, led Donne to be more circumspect. In Satire lll, John Donne, emphasizes the importance of religion but advises, to his credit, the importance of getting the "true religion" and not just following the edicts of either "kings" (see below "kings' blank charters to kill whom they hate;" or "what one's neighbor professed". see below, "a Philip, or a Gregory, A Harry, or a Martin, taught thee this?".



"........The mind's endeavours reach, and mysteries
Are like the sun, dazzling, yet plain to all eyes.
Keep the truth which thou hast found; men do not stand
In so ill case, that God hath with his hand
Sign'd kings' blank charters to kill whom they hate;
Nor are they vicars, but hangmen to fate.
Fool and wretch, wilt thou let thy soul be tied
To man's laws, by which she shall not be tried
At the last day? Oh, will it then boot thee
To say a Philip, or a Gregory,
A Harry, or a Martin, taught thee this?
Is not this excuse for mere contraries........."


I'd have thought this was enough to arrest, torture and kill him for heresy! So I was over-reactive to consider him totally passive. He had a low voice and did not address the despicable behavior of the torturers in the name of religion. So it still is relevant to consider his poem of the tolling bell, to be an insular elitists declaration.

But I stated this too strongly! I'm glad you called me to task on it!

Asher





 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Donne was a poet who tried to express a philosophy and dream in artistic terms. The contributors here are photographers that express themselves in artistic terms; at their best, their photographs express a philosophy and a dream. Some like me (and I suspect you) have non-religious philosophies different from Donne, but we share elements of his dream. However, given evidence from the recent past and the news broadcasts on any given night, the philosophies that uphold our dreams may "ignore reality" no less than did John Donne.

Cheers
Mike


We'll put, Mike!

We should take seriously what happens in our name, (wars, imprisoning on an industrial scale, half for drug offenses, LOL). But, while we put our artistic energies into beautiful photographs, we do tend to ignore the tragedies in the news each day, just as Donne did!

We're no less guilty, just because we're not as famous!

Asher
 
We'll put, Mike!

We should take seriously what happens in our name, (wars, imprisoning on an industrial scale, half for drug offenses, LOL). But, while we put our artistic energies into beautiful photographs, we do tend to ignore the tragedies in the news each day, just as Donne did!

We're no less guilty, just because we're not as famous!

Asher

I'm not sure of the logic here. I believe that our artistic energies that may reflect beauty are not exclusive of our attention to the tragedies in the news. There are many artists now and in the past who used their creative energies to expose the atrocities of the world around them. On the other hand, there were a number of critics that felt Ansel Adams was remiss in creating images of natural beauty when the world was seeing such horror. I'm not convinced of his guilt.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I'm not sure of the logic here. I believe that our artistic energies that may reflect beauty are not exclusive of our attention to the tragedies in the news. There are many artists now and in the past who used their creative energies to expose the atrocities of the world around them. On the other hand, there were a number of critics that felt Ansel Adams was remiss in creating images of natural beauty when the world was seeing such horror. I'm not convinced of his guilt.


Bill,

Thanks for sharing your views. It's important to consider this and although we might not get to some Nirvana level of insight in a few cross posts, I feel I can learn from your feedback. Many of us do art and also happen to try to do our part in life to the best we can to support our family and give back to society.

It was not Ansel Adam's job in life to do anything other than photography. He never, AFAIK, put himself up as a representative of God on earth as a priest to lead people by example and guidance. He was honestly doing an artistic trade to a degree of excellence that improved the practice and standing of photography and so left a legacy of ideas and images that still have value today.

By contrast, John Donne was a cleric of the Church of England and so had taken on a grave responsibility for spiritual and social welfare of the people in his sphere of influence. To his credit, his poetry does ask us to question the sources of man-made religious power. Was that as much as he could have achieved with his intellect and authority?

At a time when Catholics were tortured, burnt, and disemboweled while still clinging to life, it was no mean feat to be appearing to be questioning state policies, even if he did it embedded in sophisticated analogies, (that likely went over the heads of the less scholarly compatriots of the day).

Asher
 
Asher Kelman; But said:
Asher
I am not talking about JD, (we probably share similar views on his actions), more, I am coming from an Irish background (Scottish as well, but that's another story) where in our everyday lives, much of the good and beautiful were sacrificed to the horror and shame of the world. If you're talking about walking and chewing gum at the same time, then yes, I would have to say that when I am steeped in beauty, I am "guilty" of setting aside the horror and tragedies of the world for a bit of time. I'm afraid my sanity requires it. I'm also foolish enough to believe that the world would benefit from a deep breath of fresh air tinged with a touch of beauty (but as I've said, it's pretty hard to hang onto the beauty wagon these days).
Best to you, Bill
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
.............when I am steeped in beauty, I am "guilty" of setting aside the horror and tragedies of the world for a bit of time. I'm afraid my sanity requires it. I'm also foolish enough to believe that the world would benefit from a deep breath of fresh air tinged with a touch of beauty.....


Well put, Bill,

Perhaps JD was then no different than the rest of us. He needed to breathe too!

Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
A right-wing "op-ed" essay in this morning's local paper, cautioning against "excessive" environmental regulation, carried the subtitle, "Fewer jobs from sunsets than from oil and gas."

Thus we hasten toward a new "Dark Age" (and I speak not of running out of energy for lighting).

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
In the ideal world, the artist would make beautiful things:


  1. - Art for Art's Sake - poetry, music and objects that engage us, lifting our sprits and awakening our wonder of everything.
  2. - Art for practical purposes and commerce
  3. - Art just just to entertain, amuse and distract us without any more serious intent
  4. - Art to illuminate who we are, what we have done and what we should do and so improve the human condition and the dominions of nature over which man has assumed control.

Sometimes, the last kind of art, the art that completes the circle, bring us back to the beginning and end of everything, "Holding a Lantern to see where we've been, what we do and the path ahead" is perhaps the most challenging.

Asher
 
In the ideal world, the artist would make beautiful things:

  • - Art for Art's Sake - poetry, music and objects that engage us, lifting our sprits and awakening our wonder of everything.
  • - Art for practical purposes and commerce
  • - Art just just to entertain, amuse and distract us without any more serious intent
  • - Art to illuminate who we are, what we have done and what we should do and so improve the human condition and the dominions of nature over which man has assumed control.

Sometimes, the last kind of art, the art that completes the circle, bring us back to the beginning and end of everything, "Holding a Lantern to see where we've been, what we do and the path ahead" is perhaps the most challenging.

Asher

Some last thoughts about Donne after a couple of days of musing. Nothing profound, I haven’t the background for that, but a detour into a topic of interest. The question addressed is whether Donne’s “Holding a Lantern…” really does illuminate the human condition. Let’s begin with the poem.

'No Man is an Island’
No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

From my reading, the premise and inference in Donne’s metaphorical reasoning respectively address interdependence among humans (i.e., ‘no man is an island’) with an implication that the death of anyone diminishes everyone else. This kind of thinking continues to inform religious and community-minded people to the present day. Most community activists I know espouse the premise; the lyrics of the Beatles famous Walrus song endorse it: 'I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.'

Ironically, given Donne’s vocations within the clergy, the pessimistic idea that death of an unfamiliar other diminishes us all seems at odds with the principle of resurrection in Christian philosophy. If resurrection is real, the difference between the quick and dead is a matter of time not quality – death is destiny but an individual’s existence continues. Consequently, the death of John or Jane Doe is not a loss but a transition that provides no good reason for feelings like guilt, or lasting sorrow.

Alternatively, if you (like me) are skeptical about the idea of resurrection, can Donne’s premise and inference set our thoughts to right? John Fowles thought not in his best book, The Magus, that I just finished re-reading.
'No Man is an Island' Pah. Rubbish. Every one of us is an island. If it were not so, we should go mad at once. Between these islands are ships, aeroplanes, telephones, wireless – what you will. But they remain islands. Islands that can sink or disappear forever. You are an island that has not [yet] sunk.​

Bill McCarthy’s earlier post expressed similar sentiments: over-attention to horror and tragedy taxes sanity; people benefit from beauty (as well as good conversation over a glass of Jamieson). You’re neither foolish nor have any need to feel “guilty”, Bill :)
Bill McCarthy said:
… I am "guilty" of setting aside the horror and tragedies of the world for a bit of time. I'm afraid my sanity requires it. I'm also foolish enough to believe that the world would benefit from a deep breath of fresh air tinged with a touch of beauty….

Where these jottings take me is to a conclusion that Donne done wrong (sorry about the pun) in his choice of premise and the inference drawn from it – flawed philosophy, in other words. His poem fits into Asher’s list as an example of ‘Art for Practical Purposes’, not as art that illuminates whom we are. The former is unsurprising, given his involvement in the politics of religious control, whereas his muddled understanding of what resurrection implies is an example of poor scholarship that is hard to excuse.

Cheers
Mike
 

Don Ferguson Jr.

Well-known member
In lines 9-10, Donne says : ''When one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language.''
Don
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
In lines 9-10, Donne says : ''When one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language.''
Don

Don,

So, then there's no loss as the person is just transitioning in the translation process, not ceasing to exist, as mike points out. Then we return to the inherent losses implied in the "no man is an island" dogma and the concept of such losses collapses.

Asher
 

Don Ferguson Jr.

Well-known member
There still has to be a loss because they are taken from the whole of humanity. A better language means taken to a better place so life does not end at death according to Donne.
Don
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
............ A better language means taken to a better place so life does not end at death according to Donne.
Don

All well and good, Don, but then where's the loss! That's exactly the essence of the breakdown of the concept of "loss". water turing into steam or ice does not represent a loss of water. So we can't reconcile transition "to a better place" with some registering of loss. The opposite should be true, if the dead are merely in a "better place", we would be all gaining, as our connected "others" are doing better, therefore we all must be doing better.

So the conundrum persists! We can't have loss if there's conservation of souls migrating to "a better place".

Asher
 

Don Ferguson Jr.

Well-known member
Robin Williams death is a loss to all of mankind because he was taken away from the whole of humanity that is what ''any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind'' refers to in the poem.
Donne does not contradict himself saying one is taken to a different place after death where they can live on. The line about ''better language'' is pointed out to show he did talk about the resurrection after one dies. Donne does not mention loss in that part of the poem but rather transition to a new life with a higher state.
Don
 
Last edited:

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Robin Williams death is a loss to all of mankind because he was taken away from the whole of humanity that is what ''any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind'' refers to in the poem.
Donne does not contradict himself saying one is taken to a different place after death where they can live on. The line about ''better language'' is pointed out to show he did talk about the resurrection after one dies. Donne does not mention loss in that part of the poem but rather transition to a new life with a higher state.
Don


You have wisdom there, Don!!

Yes, each person withdrawn from live influence on the rest of us is a loss to us in proportion to the way that person has lived. Robin Williams gave so much to so many people, privately and publicly that even if he's "in a better place" there's a wound to the commone psyche and well being.

For most humans, their passing effects a much tinier body of humanity and their absence is like "one missing raindrop". That's, sadly the truth of it!

Asher
 
Robin Williams death is a loss to all of mankind because he was taken away from the whole of humanity [-] that is what ''any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind'' refers to in the poem.

It's easy to find examples that support Donne's argument. It's also easy to find examples that contradict it - Hitler, Stalin, convicted mass murderers or serial killers. After replacing the anonymous 'any man' in Donne's poem by Hitler (for instance), does the modified phrase


"... Hitler's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind"

provide a basis for acceptable philosophy?

Cheers, Mike
 

Don Ferguson Jr.

Well-known member
It's easy to find examples that support Donne's argument. It's also easy to find examples that contradict it - Hitler, Stalin, convicted mass murderers or serial killers. After replacing the anonymous 'any man' in Donne's poem by Hitler (for instance), does the modified phrase


"... Hitler's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind"

provide a basis for acceptable philosophy?

Cheers, Mike

If a person good or bad dies they are still taken from the whole of humanity so a loss occurs. The death of Hitler is a good loss where as the death of Robin Williams is a bad loss. ;)
Don
 
You're right to replace Donne's term 'mankind' with 'humanity', Don. Mankind nowadays refers to number of people; humanity to either that quantity or specific qualities of the human condition. You're right, too, that any person's death diminishes the size of the population by one unit, although Donne's poem intends to convey more than that.

What he meant, if I understand the poem, is that the death of "thy friends or of thine own" results in the loss to other people of humanistic qualities possessed by that person. But if the qualities possessed by that someone are more negative than positive (i.e., a 'bad' person), the product of a quantitative loss (-1) of that 'bad' person's qualities (-h) is a net gain for humanity (+h).

Cheers again :)
Mike
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
A parable

In the traditional American telephone network, long distance calls were known as "toll calls", because a charge was made for each one.

For calls originated by a customer of a Bell Telephone System company (which of course charged for the call) but "completed" by a non-Bell company, a part of the charge (the toll) was shared with the non-Bell company, the details dictated by a complex multilateral contract known as the "Division of Revenue Agreement."

A meeting of the industry association responsible for this process was being held to consider changes in how this would work when there was more than one non-Bell company involved in completing the call. The meeting was in fact held in a city served by a non-Bell telephone company.

At about the time the conference was scheduled to conclude, the financial officer of that local company said to the general manager, "I think I'll have my secretary go over to the conference site and pick up a copy of the new Agreement. Otherwise we won't know the result until Monday when we get our copy by mail."

"No", said the general manager, "never send to know for whom the Bell tolls,"


Apologies to the good father.

Best regards,

Doug
 
Top