Mr. President, Tear down That Flag!

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Kanye West tried to make money on the Confederate flag selling it in a fashion line of T shirts and jackets.
Don

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley was clear and to the point in a news conference Monday afternoon. She said, "It is time to move the (Confederate) flag from the capitol grounds.''

The Confederate flag will come down eventually but not as quick as some think. It will be interesting to see how the vote goes in the General Assembly as the removal requires 2/3 vote of both House and Senate.
Don
http://www.wyff4.com/news/sc-leaders...-flag/33709020

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr.

The Confederate flag will come down eventually but not as quick as some think. It will be interesting to see how the vote goes in the General Assembly as the removal requires 2/3 vote of both House and Senate.
Don
http://www.wyff4.com/news/sc-leaders...-flag/33709020

Very simple! Politicians will gauge the political temperature of the situation and then decide their position, whatever maximizes their chances of bringing home Federal money and tourists and getting reelected!

Asher

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Indeed, and Channel 4 is an Upstate SC station. Their mobile poll now is below. I would imagine the lower part of SC is even more fond of the Confederate flag.
Don

Should the Confederate flag be removed from the State House grounds :
Yes
40%
No
60%

[jake klein]

I agree with John Stewart.

https://youtu.be/LJl9iqnvkOE

[Jerome Marot]

This was in the news today:

Walmart Decides to Stop Selling Confederate Flag Merchandise Amid Uproar Over Rebel Banner

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by jake klein

I agree with John Stewart.

https://youtu.be/LJl9iqnvkOE

Thank you, Jake Klien

Thank you Jon Stewart

At last, someone feels the situation as I do.

Essentially

The blacks have to walk or drive down streets, honoring General's who fought so blacks would never be allowed to freely be there! How disgusting! The blacks have to view the Confederate "Battle Flag" each day, officially shown by the State, where they are supposed to be "liberated".

Thanks again, Jake Klein,

Thanks again, John Stewart

Thank seven more, John Stewarts supportive Audience!

They see the obvious issue of humiliation of blacks!

It's not a matter of "communication",

It's not a matter of "misunderstanding",

It's not solved by "conversation"

At last, $hit is called $hit for the $**** it clearly is!

....and needs to be cleaned up!

Asher

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Sen.Robert Bryd who was in the KKK has roads named after him.
Don

[Michael_Stones]

Originally Posted by charlotte thompson

Bart
Exactly my point! Flags do not cause racism. Humans do!

Charlotte-

That sounds similar to an NRA slogan - guns do not kill people, people do - or words to that effect. However, I take your point.

On the topic of Obama: from a north-of-the-border perspective, he's a helluva lot better than the previous President. My guess is that he's a helluva lot better than the former President's brother would be should he became next President. Donald Trump anyone? - I despair!!!

Cheers
Mike

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by jake klein

I agree with John Stewart.

https://youtu.be/LJl9iqnvkOE

Then look at the Irish Catholic little schoolgirls having to walk a gauntlet of abuse to get to their school in a Protestant neighborhood.

Now how different is that for the offspring of slaves to have to face overtly hostile street signs and a "Battle flag" of one of the greatest efforts to keep them as "property" for work or anything the master wishes! Imagine yourself as a black child staring at this and wondering, "Where is my place and value in this world?"

That's why the statements like "only people kill, not flags or guns" is great for brevity, but is a superficial and glib remark that is, even if unintentional, a blanket dismissal of the haunting gauntlet Southern Blacks have to live inside, every day of their lives.

Just focus on the humiliation of the innocent black child, to enable us retune our sensitivity to the this embedded hostile symbology in their lives.

The street signs and battle flags honor the fight, by white Southerners to maintain their dehumanizing practice of slavery of blacks kidnapped from Africa. That's not an "interpretive" meaning, just what the "heroism" was directed to achieve.

Asher

[charlotte thompson]

I found this to be very interesting….

http://www.rulen.com/myths/


Charlotte-

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by charlotte thompson

I found this to be very interesting….

http://www.rulen.com/myths/


Charlotte-

Well, Charlotte, you are a Southern Lady then! The reference is well written and certainly engaging. It sounds from this that Southerners and their symbols are entirely misunderstood and history has blamed them where they should be considered victims of Northern hegemony!

Of course, it could be entirely true, as I was not there in the battlefield, war rooms nor within earshot of Lincoln's musing to his confidants about the South. On the face of it, the reference you have given seems pretty partisan! I wonder how well it stands up to scrutiny? Did you find any scholarly reviews outside of the folk with agendas who have examined such claims?

Still, we can simply ask blacks who see the "Battle Flag" how they feel? That tests the actual effect, (mistaken or not), of the potential of the "battle flag" to demean, anger and humiate today's black citizens.

Asher

[charlotte thompson]

Asher,

Yes sir I am very Southern. I do condemn violence on any level! Racism is ignorance. Yes I know how to use firearms. I use to shoot skeet and trap with my late husband on many occasions though much better at trap LOL- Clay birds of course- I was brought up with respect for life on any level as I brought up both my boys. As for the link I have no idea but history doesn't always tell the truth of it. Thought it interesting though-

Charlotte-

[Asher Kelman]

The most significant facts are that blacks who were packed like matchsticks by British, Dutch and French slavers and had a high mortality rate at see were shipped to the Southern plantations and sold as slaves.

Now they believe that the "Confederate Battle Flag" signifies that ordeal. So no matter who is to blame, the coastal African tribes who raided the villages to the north to bring Africans in ropes to the trader's ships, the traders, the finance companies in Liverpool England or the Bankers throughout Europe, certainly , everyone made a profit, direct or indirect, from the labor of these kidnapped Africans survivors of the perilous journey here.

It makes no difference what we might think. The fact remains that we owe it to the descendants of these slaves that they no longer grow up facing constant gauntlets and confrontations of this evil past. They are quick to forgive, but these emblems prevent the healing.

Asher

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Jon Stewart might would find it interesting in 1860 one of the largest owners of black slaves in SC was William Ellison of Sumter, a black man. Stewart is funny to laugh at but he is not too knowledgeable about the history of SC.
Don

[charlotte thompson]

Asher

Yes of course slavery is very wrong! I agree! However as I have stated before a piece of cloth / flag/flags is or can be about ego plain and simple- If it is about race/slavery etc then it belongs to the mind not" a flag! We have created a monster out of ignorance- Now it is important for me to let you understand I detest" any form of violence yet this misguided Dylan Roof uses racism and a flag albeit many flags just to start what he has started- A landslide of more hate. I do commend you for this thread. In many ways these conversations bring understanding. I think personally- "The world was made to destroy itself"
Now wait! Seriously think about that.

C.

[Asher Kelman]

My father in law made his own bullets, LOL and did a lot of skeet shooting, but his lover was film photography and most of my dark room experience was with him!

Asher

[charlotte thompson]

My late husband made his own bullets as well- Small beautiful world.

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by charlotte thompson

Asher

Yes of course slavery is very wrong! I agree! However as I have stated before a piece of cloth / flag/flags is or can be about ego plain and simple- If it is about race/slavery etc then it belongs to the mind not" a flag!


C.

Charlotte,

It's not important what defense we have. African tribes raided other kingdoms, roped up the people and marched them to slavery. They had to establish staging depots with food and water to keep their property in good selling condition. On the coasts there were more factories or other infrastructure under black african control. Then, in Port Harcourt, off shore were the slavers. They were from Portugal, Spain, England and more. 12 million Africans were transported packed as bundles of wood, chained together, on the decks and in the holds.

In the Caribbean, Southerns States and Portuguese and Dutch settlements and plantations, blacks were sold as slaves for mining, framework and plantation work, or as house servants.

The joint effect of all this is that all the black tribal chiefs involved benefitted, except those who eventually were themselves taken by stronger neighbors to salvers too!

So this is not just a black thing and a white thing. We're all guilty. blacks, Catholics, Protestants, Arabs and Jews. Everybody, directly or indirectly benefitted from the slavery of the African tribes that were extracted criminally from their homelands.

Unfortunately, we have little refuge in Bibles for preventing slavery. The "good book" appears to countenance it but does provide some rules and every 50th year, slaves get emancipated, LOL! Now that's enlightenment!

Even Canada had slavery, but that was indigenous, one tribe massively enslaving another nation on the Pacific Coast.

So now we have this intertribal and racial wound in the open, lets deal with this.

We need to respect hurt to the descendants of slaves in this country. Their cheap labor built a foundation of property and exports to Europe that made the mansions of the South the envy of everyone who came before them.


So why not deal with what the black feel and not our justifications and "reasons" for the status quo.

At this point, please look once more at the video of the Irish Catholic schoolgirls humiliated by the screaming Irish Protestant women. That is what the Battle Flag does to blacks. We cannot hide behind "logic" and "proofs" of the history of the war to deny black children free passage without going through what to them is a gauntlet of ugly symbols of their enslavement.

Being right is not enough. We also have to do right too!

1. remove the Symbols. They are no, per se evil, but their symbology certainly is!

2. MR President, Apologize for the USA having, in it's past, Exploited blacks in slavery!


Asher

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Originally Posted by charlotte thompson

Asher

Yes of course slavery is very wrong! I agree! However as I have stated before a piece of cloth / flag/flags is or can be about ego plain and simple- If it is about race/slavery etc then it belongs to the mind not" a flag! We have created a monster out of ignorance- Now it is important for me to let you understand I detest" any form of violence yet this misguided Dylan Roof uses racism and a flag albeit many flags just to start what he has started- A landslide of more hate. I do commend you for this thread. In many ways these conversations bring understanding. I think personally- "The world was made to destroy itself"
Now wait! Seriously think about that.

C.

If the Bonnie Blue flag had been flying above the Confederate War Memorial would there be such a push to remove it ? White supremacist have not hijacked it and the flag was used prior to the Civil War as well. I wonder if there would have been such an uproar to take it down ?
Don

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr.

I wonder if the Bonnie Blue flag had been flying above the Confederate War Memorial would there be such a push to remove it ?
Don

Don,


It's a pretty design! No doubt has glorious history too! It never gained the long term traction as General Lee's rectangular "Battle Flag". It did however go into legend in "Gone with the Wind" as a nickname for a little girl with blue eyes!


The question cannot be, "What does this flag mean?", but is this, "Do the descendants of our slaves, (who perceive a flag, as a gauntlet of hate and humiliation), have to suffer such confrontations today? That's the only relevant opinion, not mine, not yours.

The cost-benefit for removing such symbols deemed so evocative of subhuman treatment, is greater than the emotional comfort of cherishing flags under which Lee's men fought bravely. Again, flags don't do anything per se, but in this case, they are so strong symbols of evil to the blacks, that their utility in public places has run out.

I am not blaming the South for all this. The North, directly or indirectly benefitted from the industry, and trade and unprecidented wealth of the Caribbean and South America made possible by the cheap labors in territories other than the Northern States.

Asher

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Well as I said above white supremacist have not hijacked it and the flag was used prior to the Civil War as well. I wonder if there would have been such an uproar to take it down ? I was thinking about it in that context. So you have never seen it ?
Don

http://www.washingtonartillery.com/Def.htm

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr.

Well as I said above white supremacist have not hijacked it and the flag was used prior to the Civil War as well. I wonder if there would have been such an uproar to take it down ? I was thinking about it in that context. So you have never seen it ?
Don

http://www.washingtonartillery.com/Def.htm

I've seen it before. But that was in my study of "Gone with the Wind", years ago with a references to the "Bonnie Blue"

White supremecists are not the real issue. The victims' families in South Carolina, having no time or place for hatred, have forgiven them, and so these nutcases, for now, can be removed from the top of the news. Trust me, I am not ignoring them, but they are not the issue.

Rather its the pervasive gauntlet of symbology and attitude that blacks have to face growing up in the entire USA.

We gave reparation to the families of interned, (ethnically Japanese), citizens of the USA during the war. We apologized to them.

We must do the same to the blacks!

Asher

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

I've seen it before. But that was in my study of "Gone with the Wind", years ago with a references to the "Bonnie Blue"

White supremecists are not the real issue. The victims' families in South Carolina, having no time or place for hatred, have forgiven them, and so these nutcases, for now, can be removed from the top of the news. Trust me, I am not ignoring them, but they are not the issue.

Rather its the pervasive gauntlet of symbology and attitude that blacks have to face growing up in the entire USA.

We gave reparation to the families of interned, (ethnically Japanese), citizens of the USA during the war. We apologized to them.

We must do the same to the blacks!

Asher

I've read that less than 10% of African slaves ended up in the US. The vast majority went to the Caribbean or further south into Brazil, which holds the esteemed position of having the most black slaves imported during the slave trade.
Reparations are "unworkable " Obama said.
Also, some wish that Obama would be offended living in his mansion that slaves built.
Don

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr.

I've read that less than 10% of African slaves ended up in the US. The vast majority went to the Caribbean or further south into Brazil, which holds the esteemed position of having the most black slaves imported during the slave trade.
Reparations are "unworkable " Obama said.
Don

Don,

Interestingly, the Portuguese were the top slavers and, paradoxically, they seemed to allow a more sovereign relationship to blacks in their colonies, Mocambique for example. In many territories, amongst the Portuguese, there's surprisingly little racism. Except in particular circumstances as in Goa, on the Indian sub continent.

Again,

We have no corner on inhumanity!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

BTW, the U.K.'s apology, by Tony Blair for the Suffering of the Irish Famine lead to resolution of the animus between Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.

Probably, the most noble and effective thing the fellow did in his entire life! A good model for Mr. Obama!

The sincere promotion of love, can, at rare times, disarm even righteous murderous, bent on revenge" rage! So we should follow the example of the families of the victims and further the dialog of healing by cleaning the debris that prevent racial wounds from healing. That means admitting the wrong, apologizing and clearing away unneeded insults to being a black in the USA!

❤️

Asher

[Maris Rusis]

It was told to me today, here far off on the other side of the world in Australia, that the Confederate flag is, in its history and its menace, the American swastika.

A Jewish person seeing the swastika celebrated and flying overhead, of itself or as part of another flag, surely could not feel anything but the deepest anguish. How can an African American rest easy in the shadow of the Confederate flag?

[Asher Kelman]

Originally Posted by charlotte thompson

Asher
I don't look at the flag as a symbol of racism. It's just another Southern flag to me. As are people of any race or color just another human being to me!
from " the examiner .."Attacking the Confederate battle flag is a way to avoid the real issue that Roof’s massacre has brought into focus, that being the treatment of the mentally ill. In a strange way, by going after the banner that flew over Gettysburg and Shiloh, the politicians are fulfilling Dylann Roof’s desire to restart the Civil War, albeit without more gunfire. I
Too think the same…
C.

Charlotte,

It's an error to conflate the killer's nutcase attitude and politics with "mental illness" or else we no longer will be recognizing criminality, just untreated mental disease. Here the particular eruption of hatred didn't arise from some disorder of the mind. Rather it is an infectious attitude transmitted from like-minded racists. They communicate with one another, each reinforcing a need to deal with the "upstart" blacks threatening the supremacy of what they perceive as the "white race". This is a community. They may not eat together or actually meet in person, but to the extent that they look to each other for mutual support and strengthening of their resolve, they are working as a group and what tragically occurred, is actually the net result of the "voltage" to which each of them separately mutually gives to their cause. Eventually, some individual can no longer sit quiet and allow the status quo, the perceived existentional threat to their "race", continue unchallenged.

So, out of pressing utterly "logical" necessity, a lone cognitive individual, (actually representing that actually disparate, (and almost anonymous), peer group), acts! This provides a loner with an opportunity to transform, in one stroke, from an unimportant, unfulfilled lonely single male, to a significant hero of the "movement". Sacrificing oneself to save society, is, after all, biblical and typically, these fellows have some strong, albeit, dysfunctional connection with religion.

So it's important to exclude mental illness and ideas of a "lone wolf" behavior as explanations for the murder of nine blacks in a bible study group in a South Carolina Church. Neither of these are anything but dismissive ways of addressing an pervasive distaste, bumpy some Whites towards Blacks throughout the USA, that, in a small subsection our populace, will eventually lead to tragedy!

Asher

[charlotte thompson]

Asher
if we remove flags for this or that do we not also remove slave history books with photos of flags confederate from all American libraries as well. Would not those history books also be offensive-should schools not teach... is that not offensive? I don't understand how that would work.
C.

[Don Ferguson Jr.]

Oh, and I do think it jumped the shark because now Reid is saying UNLV should "consider changing their name from Rebel."
Don