Handling "Feedback" in art, the Photographer's Conundrum!

We share online here in OPF and elsewhere on the web, to get feedback and just for fun. At the best of times, it's really good advice. We might get the extra nudge we hope for to be able to solve a way of showing what we really wanted to from the outset. We say now "This" is a great improvement!" and might go on to alter our photograph, rework it to fit in better to ideas of balance, power, significance and the like. But what is the "This" that is so much better?

The "This", I refer to, is the essence discovered by the self-trained eye of the person creating art. I add "self" as ultimately our suggested instructions on someone else's photograph are unlikely to match the essence of what is magical to the author. Instead, each of these critical offerings are merely referring to an essence that well-intended commentators consider express and could provide the best experience to a certain audience. The weakness, of this way of getting more knowledge about one's work, is that critiques can, in themselves, become considered as "informed, expert and authoritative". That's a common problem! The artist must, be smart enough to not take every suggestion, even brilliant one's, as appropriate or necessary. Let me add some 4 references against which critique should be tested for worth. So, we should pause to get clarity of purpose and intent in order to act effectively. Outright rejection might be self-defeating if we are stubborn and closed in meeting needs for a Promotional Campaign, for example. So test the photograph as shown and proposed changes against one or more of the following parameters that are relevant to this picture:

1. One's own artistic intent to produce Art that is valued.
   
   
2. A commercial, or social, political or cultural need.
   
   
3. A functional purpose.
   
   
4. A memento or whim to make something fun and agreeable to some group..

We need to know the answers to this inquiry to protect our integrity while benefiting from other's open to ideas and having our work serve the needs of society when that's the task at hand.

I warn anyone looking at my own "comments", feedback" or "critique" that this is just my own way of making something more of an effective voice for the artist. Neither I nor anyone else can or wishes to say how anyone else's art, choice #1 above, "should" be presented to be more effective. Rather we offer examples of where we, in humility, think you might find value in exploring.

If you choose, reject the entire idea of changing! Then tough luck on us that others "just don't get it!" For art, if it some new idea doesn't actually help materialize in physical form what the artist thinks and intended, then it must be rejected, simple as that. I'm saying that a lot of our well-meaning critique must be taken with a pinch of salt!

The exception is for the other 3 more practical needs in photography, where, (apart from the obviously naive replies), we, in OPF, have a far much better then even chance of being right, helpful and on the mark.

Asher

Good points. We may also want to differentiate between facts and opinions.

A comment, or critique, that points to how unsharp an image is is based on a fact, that the image is not sharp.

A comment, or critique, that points to not liking the color palette used in the image, points to an opinion, that the viewer does not like certain color combinations.

Critiques based on facts are more useful than critiques based on opinions. That is because one's opinion is a matter of taste and one opinion isn't necessarily better than another opinion.

Facts on the other hand are not based on opinion but on checking whether something is present or not (sharpness for example, but also proper composition, the presence of unecessary elements, etc.).

I don't understand your question. (I'm assuming that you're posing a question rather than making a declaration.)

Ken Tanaka said:

I don't understand your question. (I'm assuming that you're posing a question rather than making a declaration.)

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Ken,

If this is directed to me, then here's my response. I felt it would be good to have one thread we can refer folks to to give the caveats in dealing with or ignoring advice. I see forces which direct us to seek input from getting a sense of bonding, (by the experience of sharing within our community), to actually examining esthetic or structural characteristics of a picture intended for art or some important and pressing practical need.

How to deal with the opposing needs to protect original concepts, while being open to new ideas is the challenge I'd like to hear more on this.

Asher

I get where you are coming from. We should help but not harm. We should guide but be careful too listen to the artists concept of the photo. And we should not take criticism harshly from those who may not understand what we are trying to do

Acht.

Say what you want to say. It's up to each of us to decide:

a) is this someone I want to listen to?

b) is this person's advice relevant to where I'm headed as an artist?

If you don't say it, then I can't possibly benefit from it.
It's up to me to either learn from what you say, or choose to not listen.

I spend most of my free time playing highland bagpipes. I major part of contemporary highland bagpipe playing culture is competition. We have organized music competitions. I love playing in competition because it's pretty much the only time I have an audience who is truly listening to what I'm playing. Even if I pay an entrance fee for the privilege.

After one contest I took my score sheet to my teacher and asked if I should make several specific changes based on the judge's comments.

She said, "I think he just didn't like the way you played it." It was a really eye-opening moment. Previously I had perceived every negative comment a judge might make as automatically being a factual observation.

It's art, and there's a lot involved in it. I might not like something you (who ever) do, and you might not like something I do. The important thing is to keep perspective.

If my photo is what I want it to be, and if no one else like it, well then that's an interesting fact, but it's not a reason I should take offense. It just is what it is.

None of that really matters unless I'm trying to sell it, anyway.

Asher, I believe I understand your point.

There is maybe another thing to keep in mind for both posters of photographs and those who take the time to comment: feedback will have to be taken at face value - there are no other cues such as modulation of voice, facial expression, etc. It is way too easy to misunderstand each others written words.

An illustration of this, if I may.

Two weeks ago I spent a couple morning hours at a location where the temperature was zero degrees F. It was a place I'd visited many times through the years, but never at dawn in the dead of winter. Taking photo after photo of the same scene as the sun cleared the horizon was an exercise in working the camera and then warming the fingers back up for another attempt. Of all the photos taken during the session, the only one I kept was this one taken where the sky is lit up, but the land is just seconds away from the direct rays of the sun - http://www.pbase.com/salty_one/image/131882657

Now, when I showed this online version to a person at work a couple days later, she said, "What is this supposed to be?" She figured I was joking around. To my mind, the photo was a subtle landscape. To her, it was something not worth doing. She smiled, I smiled, and we both got back to work.

If I'd seen her comment by written word only, especially from someone I did not know personally, I'd have been doing some serious evaluation of my efforts that cold morning. In this face to face discussion, however, it was clear that my photo and the viewer simply did not connect.

Hi Tom,

Tom Robbins said:

Asher, I believe I understand your point.

There is maybe another thing to keep in mind for both posters of photographs and those who take the time to comment: feedback will have to be taken at face value - there are no other cues such as modulation of voice, facial expression, etc. It is way too easy to misunderstand each others written words.

An illustration of this, if I may.

Two weeks ago I spent a couple morning hours at a location where the temperature was zero degrees F. It was a place I'd visited many times through the years, but never at dawn in the dead of winter. Taking photo after photo of the same scene as the sun cleared the horizon was an exercise in working the camera and then warming the fingers back up for another attempt. Of all the photos taken during the session, the only one I kept was this one taken where the sky is lit up, but the land is just seconds away from the direct rays of the sun - http://www.pbase.com/salty_one/image/131882657

Now, when I showed this online version to a person at work a couple days later, she said, "What is this supposed to be?" She figured I was joking around. To my mind, the photo was a subtle landscape. To her, it was something not worth doing. She smiled, I smiled, and we both got back to work.

If I'd seen her comment by written word only, especially from someone I did not know personally, I'd have been doing some serious evaluation of my efforts that cold morning. In this face to face discussion, however, it was clear that my photo and the viewer simply did not connect.

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Excellent point, you are absolutely right. BTW, I insist that you show some pictures from the "Midwest Winder Scenes" in another thread! Especially the "open water", "sandstone seep" and "december blizzard" and the "morning in the valley".

Cheers,

Handling Critiques

Handling Critiques:

There is a certain species, some trained, some less, sipping cappuccino, those with their pinkie-extended types on a mission, that all art should be interpreted literally.

They shine with an extended vocabulary of insanely strung together words that form sentences of some sort, and have the ability to talk you an ear full until you are numb in the brain, and of course, they stick to formal done-rights and done-wrongs, but mind you, this is just the introduction, then comes the emotional part, then the in context part, they elevate themselves from the casual observer through well chosen accessories, that old, but not dirty scarf hanging loose around the neck like a priest would have in mess, or may be oversized glasses with pink frames, or totally on the contrary, the understatement Sartre type, all in black.

You know them when you see or hear them.

They are the parasitic life form in a capitalist driven art world which has one motor only, commerce!

Food critiques are in the same category, they are part of a system that is there to design value and scarcity, hence high prizes, marketing. I regularly enjoy seeing them in those fine dining cookery mob entertainment in the Idiot box, for one reason only, when it comes to guessing what wine was served, they always got it wrong, in 95% of the cases they got it wrong.

They jabber about the presentation of the food, the texture of the crispy crust of the lamb that was probably 17 seconds undercooked and the hint of ginger in the ice cream, an insult to their taste buds, or exactly the contrary, the courage to add some ginger, and on that it depends whether they get a star or not.

How to handle them?

You can fight them off quite quickly with complicated Adorno quotes they do not understand but eagerly nod their head in agreement and start laughing as if you would have made a joke, or you just ignore them.

You can fight them off quite quickly with complicated Adorno quotes they do not understand but nod their head in agreement and start laughing as if you would have made a joke, or you just ignore them.

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Deleuze works well, too...

I love them, They never cease to get ridiculous. Met them a couple of times at photo exhibitions (where everything is so "deja vu") then start to make them drunk. Satisfaction guaranteed.

Sandrine Bascouert said:

Deleuze works well, too...

I love them, They never cease to get ridiculous. Met them a couple of times at photo exhibitions (where everything is so "deja vu") then start to make them drunk. Satisfaction guaranteed.

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Hell yes, I meet them on Gallery openings, exhibitions etc., they have the ability to make a slapstick out of an otherwise boring afternoon, I only wish I could have filmed them, make short clips of their statements and reactions, their appearance, their sense of self importance and art authority, string them clips together and post on you tube. LOL

Great point Sandrine. Don't go to a show without a good supply of Deleuze. You'll probably need it!

If you're trapped in the dream of the other, you're ****ed.
Gilles Deleuze

'The task of art today is to bring chaos into order.' - Th. W. v. Adorno

May be even more true today than ever before....

This thread sure got derailed quickly. I'm impressed.

For myself what worries me the most as a poster is disinterest. I much prefer a harsh comment than nothing. Because mostly nobody's here for the sake of being rude. Like me, most of the time if I really don't like the photograph or find it ugly, I do not write. If I like it but find it perfectible in a way that I feel capable of judging (composition etc...) I'll tell. But if an image of mine is left lonesome somewhere, then I know it's crap (or simply not interesting). It's no big deal then, but I'd prefer that someone tells me...

But we always must remember that some members take a valuable time posting and commenting, even reposting their suggestions, sharing their knowledge from all range from science, arts, travels, culture. That cannot be found the same way in the "real life".

Cem_Usakligil said:

Hi Tom,


Excellent point, you are absolutely right. BTW, I insist that you show some pictures from the "Midwest Winder Scenes" in another thread! Especially the "open water", "sandstone seep" and "december blizzard" and the "morning in the valley".

Cheers,

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Well, Tom,

We also have a running track record of the opinions of a lot of regulars here and so we are able to have an idea as to where they might be standing as they look at another's work. An opinion of a photographer, who we know takes care in evaluations, can seem be more valuable to us than someone than someone who is unknown to us. However, the newbie might very well have the most unbiased and down to earth or erudite views to share. It's still for the individual photographer and the community to then judge the worth of all these incoming opinions or judgements.

It's a struggle as we try to do out best with a new photograph. An introduction is always a generous act by the artist of any work. However, some seek to hold back. Still, an "Untitled" picture by Cem or say, Alain, would not be really , "untitled". It's not as if the work came from an unknown place on the planet! It's not really presented in a vacuum. We've seen so much of their work and even without a title we have references we draw on in experiencing the new work.

This gradual assembly of knowledge about each other's photography is so helpful and is part of the joy of sharing.

Asher

I don't understand what this thread is about, sorry. I understand the idea that one should ignore feedback if it goes against his or her vision as an artist, is that what you are trying to say?

For example: if I were a photographer who had a vision to take pictures of old industrial buildings, because I feel a need to document something which is rapidly disappearing from the landscape, I may get negative feedback at the beginning: "why are you photographing ugly old buildings? try to photograph modern architecture or old castles, that, at least, is beautiful". Except that Bernd Becher did just that and became world famous in the end.

Is this what you had in mind?

Maybe we should try to define "feedback" first, then. There are different kinds of feedback one can get when presenting a picture. The first kind, and the one which is easiest to get, is technical feedback: is the picture sharp, well exposed, etc... In most places (forums, courses...) one will rarely get much beyond that.

In some cases, one will get artistic feedback: does the image fit established rules of composition, colors, etc? But this is where the "objective feedback" stops.

Rules are there to be followed or broken, but there must be a reason. Your choices to follow or break a rule and which one should be based on the message and feelings you want to convey. And this point is where the subjective starts. You can have a picture which is unsharp, strangely exposed, with an unconventional use of colors and composition and it can still be a great work of art.

The subjective feedback is when people like your picture but can't always tell why. They feel an emotion, but they usually can't analyze the process leading to it. That makes this feedback elusive, obviously. And because it is subjective, not everybody will agree. So if you ask for feedback from one person only, it has no value: that particular person may or may not like this picture.


Except that if you drop 20 pictures on a table in front of a crowd, you will be surprised how often the same 2 or 3 will always come back amongst the favorites. Subjective feedback does not work in isolation, but it works very well in statistics.

Jerome Marot said:

I don't understand what this thread is about, sorry. I understand the idea that one should ignore feedback if it goes against his or her vision as an artist, is that what you are trying to say?

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It's not that simple. If all we want is praise, we can look at our reflections in the mirror after smoking a joint! It cannot be that we simply reject or accept but rather we test the wings of the creatures we make and see if they will actually fly in the world around us.

Asher

Feedback would be pointless if we always knew what we're after

Asher Kelman said:

If all we want is praise, we can look at our reflections in the mirror after smoking a joint!

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It would seem to me, you never smoked a joint. LOL

Asher Kelman said:

If all we want is praise

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This is not what I said. I said "if it goes against his or her vision as an artist".

I'll give an example. In another forum, a guy posted a picture which was very much high key. Members, who were photographers, criticized the image as overexposed. In truth, it was done on purpose, the image was of a tropical beach and the idea was to make the viewer feel the glare and heat of the tropical sun. It was obvious, but only to non-photographers, because they would not see the picture through the prism of photographic technique: "is this picture correctly exposed?".

There is no "correct" exposure. You are free to expose as you wish, to get the colors and shapes on paper that you want. But each choice will bear consequences. The consequence here was "photographers won't be able to appreciate the picture".

“Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard are sweeter” -- John Keats

- D'un autre côté, faut voir les choses... Dès qu'on aime le confort, c'est fou c'que l'oseille peut filer vite... Le tailleur, le loyer, les brèmes... On est entouré d'voleurs !... Et j'compte pas les dames... Si j'continue à les enjamber au Claridge et à les goinfrer chez Lasserre...
Alphonse Marechal in "La métamorphose des cloportes"

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I think that closes well the quotes challenge...


@Jerome
Have you never changed your mind after someone pointed out some technical issues on your photos? Just a question. Some technical enhancements can serve your purpose better than your former intent. Sometimes you'll find a deeper way to express your thoughts. It doesn't mean that you failed as an artist, It means that you're fallible, as every human is...

Sandrine Bascouert said:

Have you never changed your mind after someone pointed out some technical issues on your photos?

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Sure, I have. Did I give the opposite impression? That was not my intention.

Let me ask the question in a different manner: when you upload a picture for critique or comments, are you only interested in objective comments? I mean: are you only interested to hear whether it follows established rules, be it on technique (e.g. exposure, focus) or composition, color? If not, what else are you interested to hear?

Doesn't it ever happen that you break one of these established rules on purpose? When that happens, what kind of comment should be appropriate? Certainly not "the picture is wrong because you did not follow such rule", I presume.

Of course not. If you see a comment that state that your horizon is not perfectly straight, it helps until a certain point
What I was trying to say is that objective comments are never such. In every technical comment made by sensible persons you'll find an understanding of what you aimed for. For the rest the "IMHO" term exists for what it's supposed to be. And I agree for the fact that you need numerous comments to go ahead, not just one.

”Each one of us, in his timidity, has a limit beyond which he is outraged. It is inevitable that he who by concentrated application has extended this limit for himself, should arouse the resentment of those who have accepted conventions which, since accepted by all, require no initiative of application. And this resentment generally takes the form of meaningless laughter or of criticism, if not persecution.” -- Man Ray

Sandrine Bascouert said:

In every technical comment made by sensible persons you'll find an understanding of what you aimed for.

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And if you don't, it may be that what you aimed for is not understandable. A valuable comment in itself.

Sandrine Bascouert said:

...In every technical comment made by sensible persons you'll find an understanding of what you aimed for....

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I find the emphasis on sensible persons to be a bit disconcerting.

Who are these people? Is there a list somewhere? How do you recognize them? Will they buy my art?

So far, I found that most of the members here (there are others on other places/forums) are quite sensible about photography.

Joe Hardesty said:

Will they buy my art?

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Yes all 'sensible people' will buy your art

The problem is there's few of them!