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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Styles and font sizes

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
With the "NC white Background" style in effect, the font used for the subject (and for some other elements) seems disproportionately small compared to the fonts for the other elements.

Many users will not experience this, as in their browsers they may have either settings:

• To use their own established fonts rather than those prescribed by the page being viewed, or

• To enforce a minimum font size (which will, in typical circumstances, "bring up" the point size of the problematical elements on this forum).

But neither of these is handsome for general use. For example, the "minimum point size" setting will often cause disruption to the layout of a page as larger-than-intended font renderings make various text elements overflow their containers. (Sometimes, the containers will expand to accommodate this, thus obscuring important element on the page.) For example, I cannot navigate the B&H pages with a reasonable "minimum point size" in effect. (And it was in fact the B&H Webmeister who called my attention to the cause of this.)

I suggest the font size setting for the subject line for the NC white Background style be made compatible with those for the other NC style variants.

Interestingly enough, the three variants of the "NC" style don't actually seem to have any other differences. For example, the "black text" style does not put into effect black text (at least on my browser), and the background is always white (despite the intimations of the style names).

Thus, I can completely overcome the problem reported with respect to subject lines here by just choosing one of the styles other than "NC white Background".

So maybe one "peculiarity" provides the cure for another.

But other elements (such as button labels) are still "too small".
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I too am a little confused by this. It could be that somehow the various updates in vBulletin have interfered with the designs and so they are no longer implemented as originally envisioned by Nicolas Claris when he created these options for us.

If you have suggestions for what we should consider doing to clarify this, go ahead. Did B&H come up with their own solutions?

Asher
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
...Interestingly enough, the three variants of the "NC" style don't actually seem to have any other differences. For example, the "black text" style does not put into effect black text (at least on my browser), and the background is always white (despite the intimations of the style names)..
Hi Doug,

I have just tried all three styles in FF3, IE8 and Opera10. They all work as they are supposed to (such as displaying black text or white background). So I am curious why your browser doesn't deal with them properly. Which browser and which version are you using?

Cheers,
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Cem,

Hi Doug,

I have just tried all three styles in FF3, IE8 and Opera10. They all work as they are supposed to (such as displaying black text or white background). So I am curious why your browser doesn't deal with them properly. Which browser and which version are you using?

I am using Mozilla Firefox, currently Version 3.6.

It may be that all your browsers are set to enforce a minimum font point size or something similar. When I set such in mine, the "problem" doesn't appear.

I haven't attempted to look into the HTML to see how the point sizes are actually coded (it is difficult with style sheets, and I don't really have the background to do it).

But I am mystified about the background color issue. So there is obviously something going on here that I haven't quite figured out.

I'll look at it with IE.

Thanks for your inputs.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Looking just at colors under Safari 4.04, OS 10.5 v. 10.6 may be different

Checking on Safari 4.04 under OS 10.4.11 the styles work as follows

NC style: blue background brown text

NC style white background: white b.g., brown text

NC Black text: works

NC style black text white background: exactly that!


Checking on Safari 4.04 and Firefox 2 under Snow Leopard, the styles work as follows

As above but no black text on the last two option.

Asher
As to text point size or particular fonts, I have to reread your points, Doug so I can fully understand where things might not be working.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

Checking on Safari 4.04 under OS 10.4.11 the styles work as follows

I was in error about the colors. I got screwed up because:

• I was looking at various elements; now I have looked specifically at actual message body text.
• I didn't realize that the "not black" wasn't very "not black" and the "not white" wasn't very "not white".

I see the same colors in both IE and FireFox, namely:

Message base test: Black: #00 00 00, not black: #66 33 00

Background: White: #00 00 00. not white: #F7 FA FF

As to text point size or particular fonts, I have to reread your points, Doug so I can fully understand where things might not be working.

Good idea. Font size issues were really my main point.

I note that the font sizes all seem "reasonable" in IE (and consistent between the styles), but I have no idea how it fiddles with things. (For example, I'm not aware of any choices regarding minimum font sizes.)

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
A look at the HTML code is interesting.

The "Subject" line in the message listings is what I have focused on so far - it was what I mentioned in my "report". (There are comparable issues elsewhere in the site, but I haven't looked further into them. Maybe after lunch. Red beans and rice, with sausage.)

That item's format is governed by the ".alt1" style class.

With the NC white Background and NC Black text - White Background styles in effect, the style class definition for .alt1 includes:

font-size: 12 px

With those two styles in effect, the font size presentation for that items looks reasonable.

With the NC and NC Black text styles in effect, the style class definition for .alt1 includes no font-size element.

With those two styles in effect, the font size presentation for that items is "too small" unless of course I have a minimum font size in effect.

No doubt some default comes into effect in this case.

I suspect this is some flaw in style sheet work.

I note that, throughout the code, there is a mix of specification of font sizes in points and pixels. That is generally not considered a good idea (although I think there are situations that might justify it). I of course know nothing about all that. I'm just a telephone engineer.

Best regards.

Doug
le crayon rouge ne dort jamais
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
There is also an inconsistency in font size between quoted matter and the "base" text.

It looks like a problem with the ".alt1" and ".alt2" style classes.

Again, I note that for one, the font size is denominated in points, and in the other, in pixels.

The relative scaling between them depends on the pixels/inch display setting in the operating system (Windows).

The values used in those two style class definitions would produce the same display text size for a display resolution of 96 px/in (the Windows default).

But of course for many displays today, the user should properly set the resolution to perhaps 120 px/inch.

That results in these two kinds of text being presented at different size on the screen, probably not intended.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
To get some further insight into the implications of having a minimum font size set, FireFox users may want to try a little experiment with this page (from the B&H Photo-Video site):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/browse/Cameras-Photo-Gear/ci/9810/N/4294541384

Look at it both with no minimum font size set and with a minimum font size of perhaps 18 pt.

The minimum font size setting is found here:

Tools>Options>Content>Fonts & Colors: Advanced>Minimum font size.

One choice is "none".

On other kinds of pages at the B&H site (such as those encountered in placing an order), the "engorged" navigation box (with a minimum front size in effect) obscures vital parts of the page (such as name and address entry fields, and in some cases, the "continue" button).

This is why I would prefer not to have a minimum font size engaged as a way to overcome the curiosities in the forum's HTML coding.

I'd be interested to hear of the observations of others with this test.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
So, Webmeister, is there any interest in this anomaly? I didn't even get a bedbug letter.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So, Webmeister, is there any interest in this anomaly? I didn't even get a bedbug letter.

Best regards,

Doug
Hi Doug,

Perhaps you might summarize what you think we should do and then what the benefits would be.Sometimes I am just waiting for someone to say, "This is the solution" and this would be the benefit. Also we have yet to migrate to VBulletin 4.


Asher
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,
Hi Doug,

Perhaps you might summarize what you think we should do and then what the benefits would be.Sometimes I am just waiting for someone to say, "This is the solution" and this would be the benefit. Also we have yet to migrate to VBulletin 4.
I believe what needs to be done is:

• The font size specifications for each element need to be made consistent in the style sheets (or however they are defined) for the four available styles. (Today they are not consistent across the four styles.)

• All font sizes should be specified in points, not some in points and some in pixels, as at present.

• The point sizes to be specified for each element should be considered from the point of readability and so forth. No assumption should be made that the user's browser would intervene (such as by imposing a minimum font size for display).

The benefit would be overall improvement in consistent readability (regardless of the browser in use, or its settings) and well as freedom from inexplicable changes when the user chooses a different style (the styles presumably only being intended to differ with regard to text and background color).

Best regards,

Doug
 
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