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  #1  
Old June 4th, 2016, 01:12 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Default Mohammed Ali

The ' greatest ' is dead. A man of his generation and a man for all generations to come.

May Allah rest his soul in peace.
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  #2  
Old June 4th, 2016, 04:00 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
The ' greatest ' is dead. A man of his generation and a man for all generations to come.

May Allah rest his soul in peace.
His humor was impressive and he taught a generation the value of focus to a goal and a love for humanity.

Asher
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  #3  
Old June 5th, 2016, 08:07 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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" I am America. I am the part you won't recognize. But get used to me- black, confident, cocky; my name not yours; my religion not yours; my goals, my own. Get used to me. " Mohammed Ali.

" Man, I aint got no quarrel with them Vietcong. No Vietnamese called me a ****** ". Mohammed Ali.

Flags have been flying at half-mast on all public buildings in Louisville.

The world has been paying tributes to a colossus of the 20th century.

" Muhammed Ali was the greatest. Period.
...his name was as familiar to the downtrodden in the slums of south-east Asia and the villages of Africa, as it was to the cheering crowds in Madison Square Garden......how fortunate we all are that the greatest chose to grace our time...
Mohammed Ali shook up the world. And the world is better for it. We are all better for it. " President Barack Obama.

" ..he was a champion in the ring, but, more than that, a hero beyond the ring.
When champions win, people carry them off on their shoulders. When heroes win, people ride on their shoulders. We rode on Mohammed Ali's shoulders. " Rev. Jesse Jackson.

" I was honored to award him the Presidential Citizen's Medal at the White House, to watch him light the Olympic flame, and to forge a friendship with a man who, through triumph and trials, became even greater than his legend..." President Bill Clinton.
The former president shall give give eulogy at Ali's funeral.

"Muhammad Ali was an iconic and historic figure who thrilled, entertained, influenced, and inspired millions. Americans will always be proud to have been in his corner and called him one of our own," President George W.Bush .

And so it goes. All across the world. From world leaders to ordinary people, have expressed their sadness at the passing of this great American icon.

But what about here at OPF? The silence here is so loud that it speaks volumes to me. Why? Is it because he was an American, or that he was black or is it because he was a Muslim?
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  #4  
Old June 5th, 2016, 11:37 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Fahim,

Quote:
Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
" I am America. I am the part you won't recognize. But get used to me- black, confident, cocky; my name not yours; my religion not yours; my goals, my own. Get used to me. " Mohammed Ali.
<snip>
And so it goes. All across the world. From world leaders to ordinary people, have expressed their sadness at the passing of this great American icon.

But what about here at OPF? The silence here is so loud that it speaks volumes to me. Why? Is it because he was an American, or that he was black or is it because he was a Muslim?
Well, in my case, none of those. More that I was trying to finish a 38-page technical paper, "History of the development of the use of the positive cylinder and negative cylinder conventions in ophthalmology and optometry".

Carla had the honor of, quite a few years ago, meeting Muhammed Ali in person. She was at DFW airport in Dallas, returning from a business trip, and found that Ali, with a considerable entourage, was sitting in one of the waiting areas.

As she passed by Ali, she greeted him with, "Hi, champ". He smiled.

Carla then approached Ali's wife (whom she somehow recognized) and asked her if Ali would be willing to give her an autograph. The wife said, "I'm sure he'd be happy to".

Carla went to Ali and asked him for an autograph, which he happily gave her. (She still has it.) Carla says she does not remember the exact context for this, but she remembers him saying to her, "It's later than we think."

Carla says it was clear that she was in the presence of a great force, and she was not just referring to pugilistic potency.

Muhammed Ali was one in a million, both in his chosen profession and as a citizen of the world. Our collective potency is diminished by his death.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #5  
Old June 5th, 2016, 01:51 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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As President Bill Clinton said ' ..(Ali ) was greater than his legend...'

But it would appear that many of our friends on OPF might not have heard of him. What with PSG, Bayern Munich, and Barca and Real Madrid..being the focus on the continent...

http://https://www.theguardian.com/sport/commentisfree/2016/jun/05/muhammad-ali-gary-younge-tribute

Along with the American sports pages, the British press has run massive special editions.

A short history of Ali and his times.
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  #6  
Old June 6th, 2016, 01:44 AM
StuartRae StuartRae is offline
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Quote:
But what about here at OPF? The silence here is so loud that it speaks volumes to me.
What can I say that hasn't already been said? Please don't assume that because I don't cry in public that I'm not sad.

Regards,
Stuart
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  #7  
Old June 6th, 2016, 02:09 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Hi Stuart.

There is a MLK day. There is a Veterans Day. There is a statue of Churchill, of Elvis, of Nelson Mandela.
Is it because we forget them? Is it to remind us that Elvis was a person?

Does the US have a Memorial Day Lest Americans forget?

Your point is well taken.

So should be mine.

Best regards.
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  #8  
Old June 6th, 2016, 08:35 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
Hi Stuart.

There is a MLK day. There is a Veterans Day. There is a statue of Churchill, of Elvis, of Nelson Mandela.
Is it because we forget them? Is it to remind us that Elvis was a person?

Does the US have a Memorial Day Lest Americans forget?

Your point is well taken.

So should be mine.

Best regards.

In general, Fahim, statues are made to honor public figures are to worship them as in Mary or Jesus on the cross. Hopefully, they remind folk of the best of the myriad of values these selected "heroes" in our cultures have.

To the extent that they inspire a new generation to apply wisdom and consideration and steadfastness to their lives and treatment of others then, these edifices are justified. As measures of superiority and domination, they have negative sides too.

Christopher Columbus "discovered" America, like Daesh, (ISIS) "discovered" swathes of Sinai, Libya, Iraq and Syria. There are two sides to edifies of our heroes. When we are the victors, we just want to be romantic and ignore the negative. The conquistadors stole the wealth, massacred the men, (in some areas of their conquered territory, villages have no native male DNA), and force concubined the women! Where's the difference difference between Medieval Spain and today's ISIS?

I will just praise and hold in awe the power Mohammed Ali gave to Blacks and deprived peoples all over the world. It says everyone of us has a spirt to be harnessed for one's people's self worth if one is willing to focus and fight for what is an inalienable right. That is how I view him on the whole.

.......and he rescued a suicidal man from a balcony of a building and saved his life. That was very selfless and heroic and gives him a pass for anything negative he might have inflicted on others.

Asher
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  #9  
Old June 6th, 2016, 09:25 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Agree with you there, generally, with one big exception..

Neither do I like statues or edifices of animate objects, nor do I approve of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
In general, Fahim, statues are made to honor public figures are to worship them as in Mary or Jesus on the cross. Hopefully, they remind folk of the best of the myriad of values these selected "heroes" in our cultures have.

To the extent that they inspire a new generation to apply wisdom and consideration and steadfastness to their lives and treatment of others then, these edifices are justified. As measures of superiority and domination, they have negative sides too.

Christopher Columbus "discovered" America, like Daesh, (ISIS) "discovered" swathes of Sinai, Libya, Iraq and Syria. There are two sides to edifies of our heroes. When we are the victors, we just want to be romantic and ignore the negative. The conquistadors stole the wealth, massacred the men, (in some areas of their conquered territory, villages have no native male DNA), and force concubined the women! Where's the difference difference between Medieval Spain and today's ISIS?

I will just praise and hold in awe the power Mohammed Ali gave to Blacks and deprived peoples all over the world. It says everyone of us has a spirt to be harnessed for one's people's self worth if one is willing to focus and fight for what is an inalienable right. That is how I view him on the whole.

.......and he rescued a suicidal man from a balcony of a building and saved his life. That was very selfless and heroic and gives him a pass for anything negative he might have inflicted on others.

Asher
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  #10  
Old June 6th, 2016, 12:10 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Fahim,

It is not, in my opinion valuable for me to pay homage to edifices of any human figure, however noble as this encourages deification of humans. We are, however noble, all fallable and while I do not interfere with other folks beliefs, I my myself have no personal affinity to any representation of famous people.

I can admire the artwork but shield myself from more than that as otherwise the premises of the heroism of the person depicted becomes an unwanted foreign invader of my own values. I try to weigh the worth of great men and women by aiming for objectivism. Idealized iconic representations shortcut this process and only serve to recruit the unwary and obtain the loyalty of the masses.

Asher
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  #11  
Old June 6th, 2016, 04:34 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Asher,

I, too admire the craftsmanship of master painters, sculptors etc. But I do not necessarily have to bring their works in my home. That does not diminish their craftsmanship and my admiration for their work one iota.

What I like and/or dislike is my own choice and for my personal lifestyle only. I will never force others to subscribe to my thoughts, likes or dislikes. Others have all the right to have their own likes and dislikes. That's their prerogative. As I have a right to mine. Agreement should not be sought by force by either parties. Just tolerance of each others points of view; however much one might disagree with the other.
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  #12  
Old June 7th, 2016, 04:57 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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Ali who?
Oh, the boxer.
Such a fascinating obsession with a bloke who pounded his fist into othe people's faces for a living.
I'm not suggesting it defines the man but it goes a long way to influencing my opinion of him.
I'd prefer to see the accolades put upon someone with a bit more of an impact on human endeavour.
I know doctors, lawyers, teachers, parents and charity workers who have done more and receive less.
I'm sure those who were close to him will miss his.
For the rest of us it's probably not a good idea to worship idols, or elevate humans to a godly status, least wise we loose sight of our own significance.

Xx
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  #13  
Old June 7th, 2016, 08:30 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom dinning View Post
Ali who?
Oh, the boxer.
Such a fascinating obsession with a bloke who pounded his fist into othe people's faces for a living.
I'm not suggesting it defines the man but it goes a long way to influencing my opinion of him.
I'd prefer to see the accolades put upon someone with a bit more of an impact on human endeavour.
I know doctors, lawyers, teachers, parents and charity workers who have done more and receive less.
I'm sure those who were close to him will miss his.
For the rest of us it's probably not a good idea to worship idols, or elevate humans to a godly status, least wise we loose sight of our own significance.

Xx
Tom,

I agree with all you say. The boxing part is a path that, to the black community and much of the European "sports-loving" community, seems a reasonable route to riches and fame. It has not yet penetrated the psyche that battering another fellow's brains out is what guerillas do to win dominance in the tribe. (Biting off the testicles and ears is another trick of the wild that helps exsanguinite the previous champion, so deposed!).

We also have hundreds of millions of fans supporting multi million dollar funded "American football", generating billions of dollars, where about 40% will develop traumatic brain energy, as did Ali and other boxers like him. Helmets don't fend of g-forces of acceleration and deceleration with the custard textured brain smashing repeatedly against the cranium.

What is shocking is that in Los Angeles, alone, two of the most respected and well funded Universitiies for neuroscience, UCLA and USC are best know by the 12 million inhabitants here as The Trojans and the Bears for their beloved football teams! There is no mention of stopping or even planning the phase out of "sports" that finance the schools wealth but damage the brains of the players for the rest of their young lives!

But back to Mohammeed Ali. His humor, quick tongue, resistance to white authority and success in his "sport" made him a powerful inspiration for many, especially the disenfranchised people who happened to have color of skin other than white!

I think it's mistaken to make him to be a national hero.

But dare I say they internationalized the brand of Mother Theresa to be synonymous with "goodness and self-sacrifice" when in fact doctors in her clinic were forbidden to administer life-saving antibiotics to deathly ill young men, (collected by her team from the gutters), with just pneumonia or other treatable infections, as her prayers by their bedside "would take them quickly to the throne of Jesus the savior"! The latter may well be a skill that this famous Croatian, devoted peasant-nun actually possesses, but by my standards, it is not any "holy person's" perogative to deny simple competent medical care that had a 99% chance of delivering a man back to complete bodily health. Yet Mother Theresa is an icon, not only of the Catholic Church, but also of people all over the world, as the meme has already entered everyone's minds and it is now pretty well fixed for eternity!

It is the weakness of man to glorify, and adulate leaders and then deify them. At least Mother Theresa was already a Catholic Nun, so her route to Sainthood is short and sweet. If Ali had been Catholic too, for sure he would have been investigated for more than miraculous muscles too and would have been found to have also helped healing and be added to the roster of revered saints.

That is what we tend to do and did to create a line up of champions to inspire, guide and discipline us and our offspring.

However, it is really bipassing critical reasoning as "deification", in all its forms, is an ancient, but sadly a primitive phenomenon of humanity that we could do well to grow out of!

We can do better than have simplistic icons to guide us. All people have both nobility and shamefull aspects. We are literate and are trained to discriminate between good and evil, good and better and evil and worse.

Unfortunately, brain-beating sports bring in tons of money and are opium for the masses. So it's important for photographers, who wish to hold a lantern up to the world over which we have mastery, to not stand by silent when others sanctify these damaging sports!

Asher
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  #14  
Old June 7th, 2016, 09:04 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I agree with all you say. The boxing part is a path that, to the black community and much of the European "sports-loving" community, seems a reasonable path to riches and fame. It has not yet penetrated the psyche that battering another fellow's brains out is what guerillas do to win dominance in the tribe. (Biting off the testicles and ears is another trick of the wild that helps exsanguinite the previous champion, so deposed!).
<snip>
However, it is really bipassing critical reasoning as deification is an ancient, but sadly a primitive phenomenon of humanity that we could do well to grow out of!
Well said.

But your reference to "what guerillas [sic] do to win dominance" requires me to tell an anecdote from the past.

When Carla's son Russ and his wife Kelley were living in the historic University District in Fort Worth, Texas, they had as friends and neighbors down the street a very nice family, the father in which was originally from Mexico. (He was an engineering technologist with a firm that produces Fresnel lenses for a wide range of applications.) A substantial thread of Hispanic culture ran through the family.

One day I was sitting in Russ and Kelley's living room watching television. Also visiting at the time, and sitting near me in the living room, was the young daughter of this neighbor family, Angelica.

On television there was some story about an armed insurrection somewhere in Africa. Someone who had just entered the room and caught the end of the story asked, "Is that about a war breaking out?"

I said, "No, it's just a guerilla action", of course pronouncing "guerilla" in the familiar American way, essentially as "gorilla".

"Gorilla?", said Angelica, baffled by what a "gorilla action" might be.

"Guerilla", I said to her, with my best Mexican-Spanish pronunciation.

"Oh, sure", Angelica said.

Of course, had this taken place in New Mexico, I would have said, "No, it's just a guerilla action", doing my best to give "guerilla" its proper Mexican-Spanish pronunciation (as any self-respecting newsreader on New Mexico television would have done).

Best regards,

Doug
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  #15  
Old June 7th, 2016, 01:16 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
... The boxing part is a path that, to the black community and much of the European "sports-loving" community, seems a reasonable route to riches and fame. It has not yet penetrated the psyche that battering another fellow's brains out is what guerillas do to win dominance in the tribe. (Biting off the testicles and ears is another trick of the wild that helps exsanguinite the previous champion, so deposed!).
Guerillia(s)? I see what you did here.

SCNR

I agree on quite a few things he did, but as far as I remember he refused to be endorsed by organizations etc.
Public mourning can make use of the publicity of the mourned for own goals - the one mourned cannot respond.
This is why I keep my thoughts for myself - as a sign of respect.

Michael
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  #16  
Old June 7th, 2016, 02:04 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
Guerillia(s)? I see what you did here.

SCNR

I agree on quite a few things he did, but as far as I remember he refused to be endorsed by organizations etc.
Public mourning can make use of the publicity of the mourned for own goals - the one mourned cannot respond.
This is why I keep my thoughts for myself - as a sign of respect.

Michael
Michael,

You guys are alert and don't let me slip anything, even this subtle by you! Yes, I took poetic license, after all, not so long ago, Mike Tyson, too, bit off his opponents ear to help vanquish his opponent!

War allows one to go berserk and blame the circumstances!

I have much respect for Ali's life as a leader promoting the underdog. I honor his bravery in rescuing one individual from likely suicide. But that doesn't alter my aversion to making a boxer into some exemplary fellow for our entire civilization, as the press and TV stations would have us think.

Homage to any sportsman is fine entertainment, but to one who eliminates his opponents by knocking them senseless is uncivilized and to me, at least distasteful!

I have a simple view, ordinary mothers that talk and sing to their children are perhaps among the greatest heroes in the planet and fathers who come home to assist in child care are a close second.

Asher
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  #17  
Old June 10th, 2016, 06:45 AM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Boxing doesn't appeal to me in the least as a participant sport but as a spectacle I find it disconcertingly compelling. As a sport, it is the rawest there is, if you step in the ring it requires 100% commitment and there is nowhere to hide.
I admire sportspeople for their sport and sporting achievements. Off the 'field', many are found wanting or may be great people but I like to focus on their sport.
Ali was an absolute wizard at his craft. Extremely intelligent at working out just how to beat his opponent. Best ever.
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