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..is it Heresy?

Tom dinning

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Now I understand, Theo.
you have confused IMO with the 'truth'.
I'm sure you are aware that there were some 300 billion photos taken last year alone. A small percentage were taken by people like yourself; masters of their game. Without knowing the facts (ie, IMO) I'd suggest that most of those pictures were taken by non-masters of the art with a DDS or EVF, either of which seem to be (IYO) unworthy of producing a decent photo. Going one step further, I'd even go so far as to say they, chances are, you haven't seem even a mere fraction of the shots taken.
So, are you telling me that, somewhere out there, history will not reflect something beyond your view and place at least one of those photos in height esteem?
Really, Theo, admit it. You're a snob. You are the anti-Tom. What you have said here about teaching and me is so far from my reality I'm now of the opinion that we will never find common ground.
It's not the EVF that's bothering you, it's your inability to understand basic differences in people. If I had more patience I'd bother to continue but your like my neighbor. He's narrow minded as well. He's also Greek. Is that just a coincidence?
 
T

Theodoros Fotometria

New member
Tom dinning said:
Now I understand, Theo.
you have confused IMO with the 'truth'.
I'm sure you are aware that there were some 300 billion photos taken last year alone. A small percentage were taken by people like yourself; masters of their game. Without knowing the facts (ie, IMO) I'd suggest that most of those pictures were taken by non-masters of the art with a DDS or EVF, either of which seem to be (IYO) unworthy of producing a decent photo. Going one step further, I'd even go so far as to say they, chances are, you haven't seem even a mere fraction of the shots taken.
So, are you telling me that, somewhere out there, history will not reflect something beyond your view and place at least one of those photos in height esteem?
Really, Theo, admit it. You're a snob. You are the anti-Tom. What you have said here about teaching and me is so far from my reality I'm now of the opinion that we will never find common ground.
It's not the EVF that's bothering you, it's your inability to understand basic differences in people. If I had more patience I'd bother to continue but your like my neighbor. He's narrow minded as well. He's also Greek. Is that just a coincidence?
Click to expand...
Tom, Tom… please try to argue on arguments not on emotions… It's not your neighbour that is narrow minded, it's you! Instead of posting here people discrepancy and trying to defend ALL discrepancy, you would be better off posting where you find that an EVF offers something over alternatives… Yet you prefer sarcasm, eggs, flour, cakes, walks on the moon, banging girls, get drunk, talk no subject with "friends" all the time… Your girl is right Tom… how can you talk so much with "friends" without a subject all night? …this is no Aussie culture, it's your culture and I do know what I'm talking about… and YES Tom… EVFs ARE the final "industrial corruption" against photo-graphers to destroy photo-graphy… Yet, it never bothered you… but, "f**k" photo-graphers… let's eat some pop-corn"!
What's your poison Tom? …I'll buy the next round. It's not a world were some are right or some are wrong Tom, neither it's a world that everybody is right and "people are different"… It's only a world that has to preserve its precious values against corruption… but to do that, the world has to understand what a value is...
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Theodoros,

I'm 100% certain that major art has already been made using an EVF as the critical tool for framing and with someone not having already decide what to shoot, pre-visualizing there too.

As Tom rightly points out, given the billions of pictures made each day, it's far fetched to posit that getting a world class collectable artwork from this is unlikely and approaches the impossible!

But if you can't or wont contemplate that you could be overreaching in your position, and we're all mistaken, then simply avoid the EVF and stick to optical systems we already love.

In time, you might be proven right but I'd wager against that!

BTW, for some of my art, I shoot from the hip and do that while walking and still get the composition. If I track down my old film, I'll show you what one can do with that trick. Today, I've been spoilt since the Pentax Spotmatic with through-the-lens viewfinder, so I've lost the skill to accurately point a camera and correctly frame without checking in a viewfinder. My success rate is down but so what I can crop a tad and folk will think I'm a sharp shooter! IOW, this is not a matter of difficulty for most of us. Now if I buy a Leaf Credo 80 mP back with a 90 degree viewer, then I will be using an EVF. I do ot think that will block any creativity I have left at my senior age!

Asher
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Theodoros,

I'm 100% certain that major art has already been made using an EVF as the critical tool for framing and with someone not having already decide what to shoot, pre-visualizing there too.

As Tom rightly points out, given the billions of pictures made each day, it's far fetched to posit that getting a world class collectable artwork from this is unlikely and approaches the impossible!

But if you can't or wont contemplate that you could be overreaching in your position, and we're all mistaken, then simply avoid the EVF and stick to optical systems we already love.

In time, you might be proven right but I'd wager against that!

BTW, for some of my art, I shoot from the hip and do that while walking and still get the composition. If I track down my old film, I'll show you what one can do with that trick. Today, I've been spoilt since the Pentax Spotmatic with through-the-lens viewfinder, so I've lost the skill to accurately point a camera and correctly frame without checking in a viewfinder. My success rate is down but so what I can crop a tad and folk will think I'm a sharp shooter! IOW, this is not a matter of difficulty for most of us. Now if I buy a Leaf Credo 80 mP back with a 90 degree viewer, then I will be using an EVF. I do not think that will block any creativity I have left at my senior age!

Asher
 
T

Theodoros Fotometria

New member
Asher Kelman said:
Theodoros,

I'm 100% certain that major art has already been made using an EVF as the critical tool for framing and with someone not having already decide what to shoot, pre-visualizing there too.

As Tom rightly points out, given the billions of pictures made each day, it's far fetched to posit that getting a world class collectable artwork from this is unlikely and approaches the impossible!

But if you can't or wont contemplate that you could be overreaching in your position, and we're all mistaken, then simply avoid the EVF and stick to optical systems we already love.

In time, you might be proven right but I'd wager against that!

BTW, for some of my art, I shoot from the hip and do that while walking and still get the composition. If I track down my old film, I'll show you what one can do with that trick. Today, I've been spoilt since the Pentax Spotmatic with through-the-lens viewfinder, so I've lost the skill to accurately point a camera and correctly frame without checking in a viewfinder. My success rate is down but so what I can crop a tad and folk will think I'm a sharp shooter! IOW, this is not a matter of difficulty for most of us. Now if I buy a Leaf Credo 80 mP back with a 90 degree viewer, then I will be using an EVF. I do not think that will block any creativity I have left at my senior age!

Asher
Click to expand...
EVF with MFDB Asher? …are you sure? ….maybe you mean using LV? …as I do? Are you sure we are not talking on the Babel tower story here Asher?
 
Tom dinning

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Theodoros Fotometria said:
Tom, Tom… please try to argue on arguments not on emotions… It's not your neighbour that is narrow minded, it's you! Instead of posting here people discrepancy and trying to defend ALL discrepancy, you would be better off posting where you find that an EVF offers something over alternatives… Yet you prefer sarcasm, eggs, flour, cakes, walks on the moon, banging girls, get drunk, talk no subject with "friends" all the time… Your girl is right Tom… how can you talk so much with "friends" without a subject all night? …this is no Aussie culture, it's your culture and I do know what I'm talking about… and YES Tom… EVFs ARE the final "industrial corruption" against photo-graphers to destroy photo-graphy… Yet, it never bothered you… but, "f**k" photo-graphers… let's eat some pop-corn"!
What's your poison Tom? …I'll buy the next round. It's not a world were some are right or some are wrong Tom, neither it's a world that everybody is right and "people are different"… It's only a world that has to preserve its precious values against corruption… but to do that, the world has to understand what a value is...
Click to expand...

What bullshit, Theo. This isn't a world where everyone is right.
Emotion! "industrial corruption", "destroy photography" Now that's broad minded and factual of you, Theo.
"how can you talk so much with "friends" without a subject all night". What's that about? And what's with the 'friends' thing in quote?
Can't you see: I'm aggravating you. Keep biting and I'll keep feeding you the bait. You're biting the hook, not the fisherman. You started this discussion if I remember rightly, back in the dark past. The deeper we get into it the more conspiracy theory we can see from you. Conspiracists (is that a word) believe they are right above all else. So if they are right the other side must be a little bit wrong. Or am I wrong in thinking that?
The beauty of this is, Theo, I have you believing what you have said about me is true.
You have no idea!
Now get back in your corner, take a deep breathe and come out fighting.
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Theodoros Fotometria said:
EVF with MFDB Asher? …are you sure? ….maybe you mean using LV? …as I do? Are you sure we are not talking on the Babel tower story here Asher?
Click to expand...


The entire screen at the back is an LCD. It can fit on my Bronica or my view camera! Add a viewing lens to exclude the world and you have a fatastic EVF!

Asher
 
Doug Kerr

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
So, how do we feel about zoom-tracking direct optical viewfinders, as found on (for example) the Canon PowerShot G16?

Best regards,

Doug
 
T

Theodoros Fotometria

New member
Doug Kerr said:
So, how do we feel about zoom-tracking direct optical viewfinders, as found on (for example) the Canon PowerShot G16?

Best regards,

Doug
Click to expand...
That's a good point Doug, obviously there is no problem when one uses an SLR, but with rangefinders there is problem. The tradition is to use a "turnit" as they used to call it for many decades, but with zooms and rangefinder there is a problem… Personally, I find no reason why there isn't an OVF with optical zoom build in, which could be activated automatically taking directions from the Lens CPU contacts, but no maker has presented anything like that yet…
 
Doug Kerr

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

Theodoros Fotometria said:
That's a good point Doug, obviously there is no problem when one uses an SLR, but with rangefinders there is problem. The tradition is to use a "turnit" as they used to call it for many decades, . . .
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar with that term. What does it refer to? A "turret" of viewfinders?

. . . but with zooms and rangefinder there is a problem… Personally, I find no reason why there isn't an OVF with optical zoom build in, which could be activated automatically taking directions from the Lens CPU contacts, but no maker has presented anything like that yet…
Click to expand...
Well, the OVF I mention has that functionality, but not though an electrical interface, but rather mechanical.

Doug
 
Doug Kerr

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

Is it your view then that the organ of the camera setup through which the photographer among other things) determines that the camera is aimed as he wishes ("viewfinder" in the broader sense of the word) should ideally bring to the photographer's eye a "view" that is exactly what the photographer would see if viewing the scene directly but with either:

• Only the portion of the scene that would be captured on the film or sensor visible, or perhaps

• With slightly more than that portion visible but the boundary of that portion indicated (as is done in many direct optical viewfinders).

Doug
 
T

Theodoros Fotometria

New member
Doug Kerr said:
Hi, Theodoros,

Is it your view then that the organ of the camera setup through which the photographer among other things) determines that the camera is aimed as he wishes ("viewfinder" in the broader sense of the word) should ideally bring to the photographer's eye a "view" that is exactly what the photographer would see if viewing the scene directly but with either:

• Only the portion of the scene that would be captured on the film or sensor visible, or perhaps

• With slightly more than that portion visible but the boundary of that portion indicated (as is done in many direct optical viewfinders).

Doug
Click to expand...
Hi Doug, it's common demand among photographers that optical viewfinders should be as accurate as possible with respect to what is recorded on the imaging area, inaccuracies of up to 92% viewing are not considered as big enough to affect ones aiming, but obviously I can see a reason why people would strongly protest against more than 100% viewing, since this could affect their composing abilities especially if they tend to include important information towards the edge of the frame… Personally, I don't own a digital modern rangefinder, I'm still "stuck" with my two Voightlander prominents and 35, 50 & 100 lenses with the original "turnit". I never had any serious parallax problem with them. The thing is, that if one has an OVF on his camera, he also has the back screen to use as an EVF alternative if he so wishes, but the opposite does'n apply.
 
Doug Kerr

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Theodoros,

Theodoros Fotometria said:
Hi Doug, it's common demand among photographers that optical viewfinders should be as accurate as possible with respect to what is recorded on the imaging area, inaccuracies of up to 92% viewing are not considered as big enough to affect ones aiming, but obviously I can see a reason why people would strongly protest against more than 100% viewing, since this could affect their composing abilities especially if they tend to include important information towards the edge of the frame…
Click to expand...

I was speaking of viewfinders whose image included more than the taken image but on which the taken image extent was indicated by a visible frameline.

The famous "bright frame" optical viewfinders (including the notable Albada type) did that.

Do we think users at the time these were common strongly protested against this paradigm? Had Albada wasted his time by inventing it?

Doug
 
T

Theodoros Fotometria

New member
Doug Kerr said:
Hi, Theodoros,



I was speaking of viewfinders whose image included more than the taken image but on which the taken image extent was indicated by a visible frameline.

The famous "bright frame" optical viewfinders (including the notable Albada type) did that.

Do we think users at the time these were common strongly protested against this paradigm? Had Albada wasted his time by inventing it?

Doug
Click to expand...
That's on the user isn't it? Why should we search for right or wrong in such a case? There are some that would like to see more in case they "work" on a scene and would perhaps prepare for next shot while they shoot one and others that may find their frame not isolated enough… I have that on my Contax 645 because of the slightly lesser size of the MFDB sensor area (49x37mm) than the camera's capability, thus I use a "mask" on the screen… it doesn't bother me at all, it doesn't bother me on the Fuji GX680 where the screen is considerably larger than the Contax one (more "waisted" area)...
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Theodoros,

Knock, knock! Have you gone outside and looked for foliage changes? Who walks the streets? I'd love to have you start a new thread about what you see in your walks around your neighborhoods.

We can return to this after I've gotten my Credo back with a fitted eye piece of my Bronica. Then I can report on what a super-EVF can do.

Asher
 
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