Is He Ready ?

When the trip of this "material life" is going to end, are we ready to let it go to another stage ??
I just wonder?
Scarey, isn't it !!

I'm not. I believe in God, I trust God & I thank God everyday for his continual provision. I am a little freaked out by the thought of dying. Wish I was gonna be around long enough to see the Eos 1DSMK10,000

Cheers,

PB

kombizz kashani said:

When the trip of this "material life" is going to end, are we ready to let it go to another stage ??
I just wonder?
Scarey, isn't it !!

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My reactions are mixed.

The picture of aged gentleman is presented as the first part of an argument. It's as if you are saying:

"This is the situation this close to the end of his life."

So let's assume you are merely saying he is close to the end of man's lifespan.

First I could let you know that this man is a great grandfather who's smile thrills his family and bring radience to their lives. I might share with you that the 8 teenagers come to him for wisdom sharing personal moments that wouldn't not be disclosed to anyone else.

So if this man is at the apotheosis of his life, where he is, to his family, almost divine, what would your question now become?

Asher

What you cannot be saying is that this is somehow a less than noble life, unless you can document that. That we cannot allow. I also hope that we are not looking at him in a Diane Arbus filter of life, searching for those with secrets of tragedies that have been already disclosed to them.

Not sure

When we come toward the end of our journey here, and hopefully it will have been long and fruitful, full of love and giving, we then can return to the helpless state we entered this world with. And hopefully too with a family around us who cherished and cared for us in our limited ability as it was when we were infants.

Kathy Rappaport said:

When we come toward the end of our journey here, and hopefully it will have been long and fruitful, full of love and giving, we then can return to the helpless state we entered this world with. And hopefully too with a family around us who cherished and cared for us in our limited ability as it was when we were infants.

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That is what I say we cannot say! This gentleman could be a practicing theoretical physicist or a music composer, for all I know! We must not assume otherwise. That is something I feel is wrong. All we can assume is that the gentleman is elderly. This man may not be at all helpless. So Kathy, watch it!!!

The girl in the short skirt is not a "asking for it" or a whore nor is this man known for what he actually is. We have the habit of classifying people in one glance and that speaks more to our own needs and experience than to anything much about the one we are observing or photographing.

With kindness,

Asher

Read the title to my post

Asher,

The title to my post was Not sure.

This gentleman could be deep in thought, just napping, - there is a whole range of scenarios. We do not know the Who, What, Where, When, Why or How of this photograph.

My commentary was strictly in response to the text of prior posts.

Hi Kathy,

I'm a little harsh, yes, but no offense is meant, least of all to you. We just need to clearly draw a line around people's diginity. This is the strict policy of OPF. There's one thing taking a picture, this we want. The text however cannot imply anything negative that might denigrate since that is against the OPF TOS and for good reasons.

We have this with street people in general and the elderly is another example that I had not thought of previously. Public figures, however, need to be careful about what they do in public, since there are always cameras around and we do and shall discuss very freely the meanings of what might be in the picture. A private person must be more protected,, wouldn't you agree?

Asher

I think that the original photograph captured the man in a vulnerable pose that does suggest confusion and perhaps helplessness. The question is...is this fair because, as you point out, we all have moments when we look idiotic/not ourselves. How much of a picture comes from the subject, and how much is projection by the photographer?

I have an embarrasing story to illustrate this...I work as a reporter and was recently invited to a tour to a hosital and managed community for the mentally ill (mostly schizophrenics). I took pictures as a part of my job, which included taking pictures of the residents. I took a whole bunch of pictures and started sorting them into which ones can be used when I thought I came across a good one of two men in drag at a "fashion show" that the residents put on for the journalists. I thought it was a good example of inmates who are allowed to express their personalities while confined to the facilities (which was quite progressive for what it is).

"They look like they're having fun...there's just a suggestion of blank confusion in the eyes to suggest they're not quite normal," ran my internal politically-incorrect dialog, "looks like it could be a winner."

Then a fellow reporter on the tour informed me that those two guys were actually the only two non-mentally ill participants in the show. They were staff members who helped organize the show!

Interpretation from the photographer's part is necessary to take a photograph, certainly a great photograph. But we also have to be very careful when making that interpretation.

Yes, dignity is most important

Recently I was off in Santa Monica looking to do soem street shooting. We went to dinner at a favorite restaurant and when we were finished eating, decided to go for a walk. I had my camera with me. During dinner I took some great shots of my meal for an assignment on another forum.

Although there were many things I could have shot, my eyes kept "seeing" some of the well known Santa Monica Street people. I put my camera away. For no other reason but I just felt that to shoot the photos of what I was seeing would somehow take away the dignity of the people I would be capturing. Sometimes, we as photographers, need to make that decision. Sometimes, we must decide if our image will serve as a greater purpose to society by our choice and the cost to the people we might be embarassing, should they have a choice in the matter.

Thanks Angelica, you made my point. This elderly gentleman must be respected as such. This is so important.

If I'm in a room and the best dressed person opens the doors for the ladies, takes out a pocket handkerchief and dusts the chair for the lady to be seated and is gracious to everyone is the guy I'd be concerned with. Why? He has created an aura of charm, which, on occasion, is a cover for deception. Humans, like all hunters, are experts at that.

Now it's so funny that when we see someone without the accoutrements

1. purse,
   
2. position,
   
3. posture and
   
4. panache,

we have a natural tendency to be dismissive. I do the opposite. In the finest parties, I talk to the servers and cleaners. I can learn something from them. The men share feelings and the women their children’s dreams. The rich people share stories about their Hispanic maids and the men their mistresses or millions. Utterly superficial, 90% lies and 100% boring!

Now our man in the picture, I'd let him be himslef and I'd not question him. He's worked a whole life. I'd give him respect, my arm to go up step and maybe he's help me too!

As for the future, my thanks are for each day when I wake up. My job description is limited to concern for what I do to others in doing what I want for myself.

Asher

Kathy,

Although there were many things I could have shot, my eyes kept "seeing" some of the well known Santa Monica Street people. I put my camera away. For no other reason but I just felt that to shoot the photos of what I was seeing would somehow take away the dignity of the people I would be capturing.

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It's a fine line we have to draw. Surely it would be just as unjust for those people to be treated as invisible. I have to admit I'm conflicted on this, I see your point and Asher's point about dignity, but I also think that the darker side of life should be documented (and not always as the kind of Dorothea Langue "migrant mother" issue shots). It can be a powerful and not necessarily dignity-stripping photograph to show that even in Santa Monica, among the pierside restaurants, poverty exists.

For instance, here is one of the pictures I took at that sanitorium. I thought that I have been sensitive with this picture (I chucked the ones that focused too tightly on the bedridden woman and tried to make the picture's main focus the nurse -- the point is the woman, who is without family, is well taken care of), but some people on another photo forum still felt like I crossed the line. I absorbed the criticism and thought it was valuable, but I still don't know whether I was right or wrong to take that shot.

When it comes to whether or not to show or not to show the marginalized and how, there are no easy answers.

Intent

I think you need to look at the purpose of the photograph to make the determination.

If you are shooting as a journalist, then the purpose is to report things as they are but if you are shooting for art or portfolio then you also need to look at what the end use of that might be. For me, on that day, I was not reporting anything. I was shooting for practice, for possible art and had not particular end use in mind. To shoot the people I was seeing that day, I felt would have taken away something from them.

Angelica,

Your picture is powerful and draws us to the humanity of the situation. The microphone intruding to the left brings this to even more sense of conflict that we should know about this.

Dorothy Land might not have taken this picture, but would, I believe, admire you work.

The legal aspect is not clear to me, however, as this picture is taken in her private hospital room. How could she give consent? The latter is not required in the street, but what about in a hospital. My belief is that this might have crossed the line.

Still, overall, I look at this as a positive contribution and the art, to me at least, outweighs other considerations. I see no disrespect at all, just sensitivity in the best tradition of classical photography. The lighting from the window on the nurse's face makes her the main character, provides a mood of sensitivity and thoughtfulness, pushing this picture's quality to "excellent".

I personally might experiment with removing the extra figure behind the nurse. It might, or might not simplify things and add clarity. I suspect, it is needed, but am not sure.

Thanks for your contribution,

Asher

Thanks, Asher,
I have to say I was really astonished by the level of access we got on the tour as far as photography was concerned. The hospital was careful to obtain the permission of all the patients who are capable of giving it, but obviously the woman in the picture was not. They asked us not to take pictures where she is the only subject in the shot in her case. I have a feeling privacy laws are not as tight here in Taiwan as, say, in the states.

Angelica & Asher

I just want to express my concerns about these photographs. I have gone through a range of emotions looking at them, and delayed responding in order to check my feelings, but the image of the lady in the bed has played on my mind, and I decided I must respond.....

I come to this from the point of view of someone who has worked with the elderly, the terminall ill (both young and old) and the brain injured (through illness and accident). These are all situations that could be anyone of us.......like Asher and I'm sure all of us, I am very grateful for every healthy, happy day that I live.

I am strongly opposed to the idea of taking photographs of people who could feel that their dignity/privacy has been compromised by the resulting images. I understand the importance of increasing awareness and raising the profile of caring for the ill/elderly, but I think the best way to judge this is to ask yourself this question......

If I were the woman laid in the bed, or the man on the street looking frail and in difficulty, would I want my photograph taking without my consent?

My answer would be a resounding NO. In the absence of permission I am worried by these images, particularly the one in the ladies Hospital room. I feel that the right to privacy of this vulnerable lady has been compromised, although I understand that the Hospital concerned had given their consent. I question the motives of the Hospital in allowing this to take place......

If the object of the exercise was to remind us of the fragility of life, then the objective has been achieved, Angelica has done her job and has done her job well, but I feel when people can no longer speak for themselves, we have a duty of care and should err on the side of caution and respect their right to privacy............

Hi Janet,

The point you raise must be always in our minds as a point of conscience to refer to whenever one is taking photographs. The word "taking" was not used accidentally, rather to refer to the power we have to harvest other people's privacy, legally or not.

Ethical behavior is about what one should do as opposed to what one is able to do at one's whim.

Without knowledge of the other side of curtains of privacy, men could still beat their obedient disenfranchised wives, fail to educate their daughters, exploit the poor, fail to provide for the indigent and so forth.

If there were no pictures, the darkness will set in and the elderly will then have no medicines and be restrained with straps in an unchanged bed with no one to advocate for them.

"Mind your own business" has been used as a cover for all sorts of unfair and exploitative practices.

Having said this, we have to rise above "doing our thing" and ask whether we can recognize our mere entertainent from more valuable purpose.

In the USA, that picture in the hospital would have required a lot of thought and might not have been allowed in many institutions. As it is, no harm appears to have ben done.

Having said that, the picture itself does so much that is good and noble and so little that harms, that I feel that the art removes my reticence in the final analysis.

Janet, I have no real answer except to have a conscience.

We must just consider the other person no less noble and worth respect than ourselves. At the very least we must struggle each and every time in order not to take another person, (especially a person who is perhaps less able to fight for their rights) for granted.

Asher

Hi Asher

You have eased my mind a little about this issue, and I agree with your comments about the need for photographs, but my concern was mainly that I felt this lady had more than likely assumed she would be safe from prying cameras in her own hospital room.....I am sure these photographs would not be allowed in the UK with the ladies face visible....

Janet,
Decades ago, when the institution was first founded, the place was basically a depository for people society would rather forget. Back then, it really was grim and shocking (as shown by first-hand accounts of staff and, yes, photographs). What the hospital staff were trying to show in allowing the woman to be photographed is not that she is vulnerable and at the end of her life but that somebody like her is now taken care of properly despite her lack of resources...kept clean and as comfortable and healthy as possible. I don't know if that comes through in my photograph. I was really moved by the staff there...through their interaction with the other residents it is clear that they are very passionate about their work and think of themselves as the residents' family member as well as caretakers.

It's also true that standards for privacy in photographs are a lot less strict here...it's a societal difference, I think. Whether or not there is or should be an absolute right to privacy is an interesting subject for debate, but I think that at the very least the hospital staff had their hearts in the right place.

Hi Angelica

Thank you for giving this additional information, and yes you're right it would seem that the standards of privacy are different, here in the UK the rights of the patient to privacy are of paramount concern.

Privacy and all issues surrounding it will continue to be a source of contention, a dilemma that we will never solve.

I wish you well with your career, and am glad to hear of the changes that have taken place and that this lady, and others like her are well cared for, with best wishes....

Angelica Oung said:

Thanks, Asher,
I have to say I was really astonished by the level of access we got on the tour as far as photography was concerned. The hospital was careful to obtain the permission of all the patients who are capable of giving it, but obviously the woman in the picture was not. They asked us not to take pictures where she is the only subject in the shot in her case. I have a feeling privacy laws are not as tight here in Taiwan as, say, in the states.

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In Canada, permission would be given only (1) if the resident were able to provide it or (2) a cognitively incapacitated resident's legally appointed guardian provided it. The latter is usually a family member. An institution that failed to safeguard the interests of the resident and family would be in for harsh criticism.