Horse Events

Scott, those are great references to talented photographers. Thanks.

I am not telling anyone how to shoot or express their art!

I only argue being open. We shouldn't trash or dismiss them out of hand as some "gimmic" by unskilled would-be artists seeking to overcome deficiencies but pointless shorrtcuts.

Asher

Don
in the 2 pictures we can see on your link the 2 women are almost verticals!, this is the choice of the photographer to center on the personnage or on the background. This is completely different! and second what Scott explained perfectly...

Correction, "The Third Man" was directed by Carol Reed, Orson Welles was a co-star, although iirc Orson also used the technique earlier in Citizen Kane, and as Scott noted the technique actually originated with German film makers in the 30's and 40's. Hitchcock was also fond of the technique. Supposedly after filming Third Man, the crew presented Reed with a spirit level.

- DL

Don Lashier said:

Correction, "The Third Man" was directed by Carol Reed, Orson Welles was a co-star, although iirc Orson also used the technique earlier in Citizen Kane, and as Scott noted the technique actually originated with German film makers in the 30's and 40's. Hitchcock was also fond of the technique. Supposedly after filming Third Man, the crew presented Reed with a spirit level.

- DL

Click to expand...

Actually, I forgot about the Expressionists. I agree that Dutch angles are a dime a dozen in TV video -- a quick look even turns up a rights-free site offering anything you might want, from traffic to reefer madness, all at a Dutch angle. But I just finished looking through thumbnails of M, Fritz Lang's 1933 classic (there's a public domain MPEG2 version available for anyone who can handle a 3 GB download at http://www.archive.org/details/M_ ), and only found one shot not perfectly horizontal. Maybe if you go back to Lang's Dr. Mabuse films, which were pretty freaky, you'll find the first Dutch angles.

In Hitchcock, do you remember the stomach-turning shot in Vertigo, where he drops the camera down the stairwell while zooming it back from tele to wide? All this stuff gets most of its energy from combining motion with unstable angles, which takes us a long way from the horizon in still photos.

scott

scott kirkpatrick said:

In Hitchcock, do you remember the stomach-turning shot in Vertigo, where he drops the camera down the stairwell while zooming it back from tele to wide? All this stuff gets most of its energy from combining motion with unstable angles, which takes us a long way from the horizon in still photos.

scott

Click to expand...

Hitchcock's were often dynamic, in addition to your example I also recall some carousel scenes in "Strangers on a Train", but iirc most of the Third Man scenes, as well as Orson Welles', were static. (gotta get out my LD and watch it again

Myself, I'm somewhat of a fanatic about keeping things level so rarely use it, and then it's typically when looking "up" where for some reason it appears more natural.

- DL

Back to topic!

Jon, Bob, Tom and Tony, all of you shoot horses in these events. I know that in your case, Tom, it is a love of photography and the animals. But I'd like to know how this works as a real income source, like say track, swimming and other sports event photography?

Asher

I think LA Equestrian Centeror the various event organizations have an official photographer. I would assume that they sell the prits to the event organizer and or to the riders. I have given my images to some of the riders and riding groups before for their websites and such.

I would also assume that this group is mostly well off set and would be willing to pay for many of the photographs of themselves with their horses.

Tom,

Happy weekend to you!

I wonder whether you have ever looked to see how the "official" photographer is generally organized?

Do they have a truck fitted with computers and printers and send the images by a runner/wirelessly or do they simply deliver some other time?

Asher

Back on track

I started this thread initially to explain how complicated the subject of horse event photography is and outline the problems and solutions you may encounter along the way.

The tangent regarding cinematography techniques is also quite interesting as I spent 20 years as an industrial (assembly machine/machine tool) cinematographer. (We used to be the auto capitol). I was also the Cinematographer/Videographer of record for the Detroit Formula 1 Gran Prix in the 80's. Horses are more fun.

Anyhow - Asher - There are some show photographers who travel on-site with a fully equipped trailor. Wireless from camera to receiver to printer. They have a fairly large investment in equipment and this results in some pretty high end costs to the customer. This type operation generally involves attending events that will produce income from an "instant gratification" on the participants purchases. Unfortunately, it seems that wealthy customers are less inclined to purchase prints on a regular basis.
As to income, without being specific, the way I run my operation generally nets me a few hundred per day (net being the key word).
I break my efforts into 3 basic areas. The first is the photographic aspect, that is, all things related to capturing and finishing the images offered to the customer.
The second is learning and applying the technical details of the SUBJECT in order to capture the essence of the moment from a "horsemens" aspect.
And of course, we have the never ending marketing/sales/PR part of it all.
I do have to pay a certain "price" for being able to experience the sheer joy of photography for its own sake.
I have positioned myself in a 'niche' (hate that word) market that provides me with the greatest degree of enjoyment and return on investment for time spent.

Asher Kelman said:

I wonder whether you have ever looked to see how the "official" photographer is generally organized?

Do they have a truck fitted with computers and printers and send the images by a runner/wirelessly or do they simply deliver some other time?

Click to expand...

At Spruce Meadows (one of the world's premiere jumping venues), the facility is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a week to the public. During competition times, one company is the only vendor who takes images for Spruce Meadows publications and for sale to the competitors - this requires two to four photographers. Two other photographers are hired for the event to shoot signage shots and other specific activities such as awards, dinner parties, etc. Wi-Fi is not used for the photography.

The one company with print sales rights has special features in the media room for his computer, printer, and equipment storage. Most printing, however, is done at the photographers offices. The media room, which usually contains 10 to 20 photographers and reporters, is well equipped with wifi. Immediately after shooting, the photographers send, by internet, their selected images to whom ever hired them. Usually, this is to various press organizations such as newspapers, wire services, etc.

Spruce Meadows is, in North America, quite unique - it is very large with 6 jumping rings and very fine indoor venes. It also has a television production facility which creates programmes for world-wide distribution. In fact, this group called SMT, produces a weekly show for European distribution.

My project is independent of the mainstream - I hope to produce a coffee table book after about a year of shooting. Since I am a neophyte at shooting horses, I need a few more competitions to get the type of images I need for the book.

Asher Kelman said:

Back to topic!

Jon, Bob, Tom and Tony, all of you shoot horses in these events. I know that in your case, Tom, it is a love of photography and the animals. But I'd like to know how this works as a real income source, like say track, swimming and other sports event photography?

Asher

Click to expand...

Of late, I've been shooting HS/Club soccer and swimming. At soccer tourneys I see "professional" photogs (i.e. 'Action Photos' is the name of the group I usually encounter), shooting everything in sight. They have a booth and display their photos for purchase at the booth.

They print 6x4s and insert them into plastic pages which are in a three ring binder identified by game. Parents will sift through the pages, remove photo(s) of choice and purchase.

Photos are low quality in terms of image impact, nothing of publishable quality. Usually limbs are truncated, horizons tilted (for no apparent reason) and no ball. But they sell as the photos are cheap, better than with a P&S (Action uses Canon cameras w/ L lenses) and parents and their money are soon parted when it comes to their little darlings (I am no different).

I have yet to see Action Photos at an inter-school swimming event.

Gary is right on

What he describes is exactly the situation that exisits in many sport related venues.
When you get away from Tony's level and specific purposes, the recent marketing of P&S and entry level DSLR's has really muddied up the waters. Anyone who can spend a couple hundred (or less) can now be a "Photographer", especially if they sell a print to a Mom or Dad.
This is the exact situation I attacked. Now, my strongest advocates and best customers are just those type of people.
My market is comprised almost entirely of middle and upper middle class customers who have come to realize that they will (most likely) never get that split second image of perfection between their rider and horse.

Bear in mind that there is a definate and certain element of danger involved in this type of shooting. Your dealing with 1200 pound animals who may or may not obey their riders. Fortunately I haven't been kicked yet. Stepped on and leaned on are part of the job. I have many photos of riders who have been thrown, rolled on, kicked and on occasion bitten. It is not for the faint of heart. Good grief, maybe I am crazy. Oh yes, dirt and rocks thrown up and at you and your equipment are pretty normal also.
I've never been a me-too person and that is perhaps why I am attracted to the sport.

The official photog that I've seen seems to work by himself and takes the shots but I've never seen any other equipment/printing booth or anything like that. So I guess he delivers them at a later time.
I think this is the site for one of the offical photographers.
http://accustomphoto.com/
Here is his gallery online http://accustomphoto.com/Pages/gallery.html

Asher,

I sometimes work with Bob Branam, owner of one of the bigger hunter/jumper photography companies on the east coast. He has several trailers fitted with computers and printers that he parks on site. He usually has one photographer covering each ring, one person manning the trailer and then a runner in a golf cart that picks up/drops off cards about once every 45-60 minutes. It seems to work fairly well.

Michael

Seems as though...

...."Big Business" is creeping into everything. Sad in a way, things seem to take on a set formula and this becomes a de facto standard for what follows.

All that I sell has been reviewed and tweaked by me. It is not so much the money as the loss of the personal touch that used to be part of thngs.

Running faster to nowhere - what happens when we get there?

Michael Springfield said:

Asher,

I sometimes work with Bob Branam, owner of one of the bigger hunter/jumper photography companies on the east coast. He has several trailers fitted with computers and printers that he parks on site. He usually has one photographer covering each ring, one person manning the trailer and then a runner in a golf cart that picks up/drops off cards about once every 45-60 minutes. It seems to work fairly well.

Michael

Click to expand...

Jack Hartzman worked with Michael Tapes to set up something like that.

The handle 50,000 images from 8 photographers! I guess they can't print on site too!

http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4412#post4412

The system is set up for a PC laptop, so it would run, I guess on a Powerbook Pro running XP!

Asher

Jon P. Ferguson said:

...."Big Business" is creeping into everything. Sad in a way, things seem to take on a set formula and this becomes a de facto standard for what follows.

All that I sell has been reviewed and tweaked by me. It is not so much the money as the loss of the personal touch that used to be part of thngs.

Running faster to nowhere - what happens when we get there?

Click to expand...

Jon,

I wonder if it is possible or worth your while to have an economical system for you to print on site. Perhaps either the official guys don't allow it or else if it is just you, then all you need is orders?

If you do print, then what printers keep up with the volume and what is that?

Asher

Jon P. Ferguson said:

What he describes is exactly the situation that exisits in many sport related venues.
When you get away from Tony's level and specific purposes, the recent marketing of P&S and entry level DSLR's has really muddied up the waters. Anyone who can spend a couple hundred (or less) can now be a "Photographer", especially if they sell a print to a Mom or Dad.
This is the exact situation I attacked. Now, my strongest advocates and best customers are just those type of people.
My market is comprised almost entirely of middle and upper middle class customers who have come to realize that they will (most likely) never get that split second image of perfection between their rider and horse.

Bear in mind that there is a definate and certain element of danger involved in this type of shooting. Your dealing with 1200 pound animals who may or may not obey their riders. Fortunately I haven't been kicked yet. Stepped on and leaned on are part of the job. I have many photos of riders who have been thrown, rolled on, kicked and on occasion bitten. It is not for the faint of heart. Good grief, maybe I am crazy. Oh yes, dirt and rocks thrown up and at you and your equipment are pretty normal also.
I've never been a me-too person and that is perhaps why I am attracted to the sport.

Click to expand...

Greetings to all.
I having been an equestrian photographer for five years.
I agree with most of what you say. However the "danger" factor is a little overstated. If you pay attention and keep your eyes open there is minimal risk. Riding is another story. And yes there is good money to be made.
Mark

Tony Field said:

At Spruce Meadows (one of the world's premiere jumping venues), the facility is open 24 hours a day, 365 days a week to the public. During competition times, one company is the only vendor who takes images for Spruce Meadows publications and for sale to the competitors - this requires two to four photographers. Two other photographers are hired for the event to shoot signage shots and other specific activities such as awards, dinner parties, etc. Wi-Fi is not used for the photography.

The one company with print sales rights has special features in the media room for his computer, printer, and equipment storage. Most printing, however, is done at the photographers offices. The media room, which usually contains 10 to 20 photographers and reporters, is well equipped with wifi. Immediately after shooting, the photographers send, by internet, their selected images to whom ever hired them. Usually, this is to various press organizations such as newspapers, wire services, etc.

Spruce Meadows is, in North America, quite unique - it is very large with 6 jumping rings and very fine indoor venes. It also has a television production facility which creates programmes for world-wide distribution. In fact, this group called SMT, produces a weekly show for European distribution.

My project is independent of the mainstream - I hope to produce a coffee table book after about a year of shooting. Since I am a neophyte at shooting horses, I need a few more competitions to get the type of images I need for the book.

Click to expand...

Tony,
Your pictures are great. You can shoot with me anytime!
With my business I shoot and sell on location to the riders. Different than shooting for a book.
However you always need good shots. My approach is to shoot from a variety of perspectives to get different "looks". My clients have been riding for many years and have the generic "jump" shot. So I have to create a different look for them to want. For example : Horse / rider close ups or shots through the fence rails.
Besides getting a good action shot I look for the candid/unusual shots. You should always track the rider as they leave the ring. Sometimes you strike gold. For example: the high five with the trainer or the horse hug . I sell much more of these than action shots.
Onsite selling is also key to making money. You don't need a trailer. All you need is a tent, a laptop and a printer to start. People will take the time to view and purchase on location. As long as you don't waste there time waiting. One other issue. Just my experience. One other thing. DON"T BE AFRAID TO PLACE A VALUE ON YOUR TIME AND SERVICE!!!!!! I am at these events to make a living. It can be fun. But it is still hard work. This is a never ending debate. Perhaps for another discussion.
Mark

This thread has taken me back to 1975 when I owned horses. I had quite a few Quarter horses and several Hunter Jumpers as well. Eventually I made it a side business buying and selling horses. It became way too time consuming and I eventually sold or gave away my horses. Gave away you ask? Yes there were some older horses I had that I gave to up and coming young riders with the proviso that the horse would always have a home on their farm once they passed the horses ability. I essentially found some wonderful homes for all of them My favorite lived to the ripe age of 19.

It actually was quite nice getting photo's in the mail of my "kids".

I didn't ride but I would get really good riders to show the horses as the idea was to create a breeding stock of sorts. It actually was quite successful.

I took many many pictures during that period, all film and some slides. I'll have to find them and see if any match the wonderful work I've seen in this thread.

Thanks for the wonderful walk back into the barn. It brought back a lot of memories.

Jeff

Hi all,

Between you you've all posted some great shots. I've never shot sport, but I can certainly understand why it would be challenging.

If I may, I'd like to make a general observation. The first thing that I see when I look at a photograph is the light. For me, the light forms a major part of the composition of a photo. One of the difficulties that I foresee with outdoor sports photography is that you have little control over the lighting or timing of the events; however with a little bit of prepartion, a good eye and some luck, there are opportunities to take advantage of the lighting available to you.

For those who haven't visited his site, I highly recommend reading the workshop's at Dave Black's site. He's a master at using light in sports photography. Here's a workshop he did at the Derby that epitomises his work:

http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/06-2006.htm

A list of all his workshops can be found here. There a few horse related ones:

http://www.daveblackphotography.com/workshop/index.htm

Good reading,

Tim

Tim,

Thanks for posting the Dave's workshops. Anyone here take them and can report?

Mark,

what is your shooting location range of operation in case someone would like to ask if they could look over your shoulder? Would you mind?

I am pleased we have a number of people interested in this area where the animals are loved and treated with care and respect!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Tim,

Thanks for posting the Dave's workshops. Anyone here take them and can report?

Mark,

what is your shooting location range of operation in case someone would like to ask if they could look over your shoulder? Would you mind?

I am pleased we have a number of people interested in this area where the animals are loved and treated with care and respect!

Asher

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,
I am based in southern New York.
Mark