News: Italian Justice???

The verdict is in for American Amanda Knox and it is guilty....It is my understanding this was reached without DNA and without finger prints. But is this just a matter where people WANT to believe shes innocent? Not too many convicted killers say yeah i did it....

Respected show 48 Hours is siding with Miss Knox....And why did the prosicuter seek a sentance that was said to be reserved for only the most extreme criminals like Moffia and such.

I have not heard enough of this case other then the majority of the so called evidence is speculation not evidance like DNA....

If she did in fact do it shes not going to say yeah i did kill her. Fact and speculation....And the Itlian Justice is coming under fire from not just the US but other parts of the world.

You would think in the more advanced countries the justice system would be more sound.

Thoughts anyone?

ErikJonas said:

...You would think in the more advanced countries the justice system would be more sound.

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I don't normally jump into these sorts of discussions, and having paid little to no attention to the Knox case, couldn't really comment.

This is a bit of a thread hijack, but one would think in more advanced countries with established and revered judicial systems and traditions- the United States comes immediately to mind- that a citizen could not be arrested internally and held without charges for three years based on some nebulous claim of being an "enemy combatant", the evidence of which is "classified."

Kafka would have loved it, and yes, I am an American citizen.

Wendy

The solution: send the prisoners to Berlosconi!

Wendy Thurman said:

I don't normally jump into these sorts of discussions, and having paid little to no attention to the Knox case, couldn't really comment.

This is a bit of a thread hijack, but one would think in more advanced countries with established and revered judicial systems and traditions- the United States comes immediately to mind- that a citizen could not be arrested internally and held without charges for three years based on some nebulous claim of being an "enemy combatant", the evidence of which is "classified."

Kafka would have loved it, and yes, I am an American citizen.

Wendy

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Wendy,

It's little to do with modernism!

Rather excesses happen when folk ignorant of the Enlightenment, the infusion of logic and Magna Carta traditions into a society don't trust a rational approach and simply use fear and naked abuse of power. Frankly, I doubt whether Bush Jr really has read anything of the French Revolution or of the Magna Carta, roots to our ideas on a modern society. Yes, it's very hard to see that laws allow the Klu Klus Clan to march and spout venom of race hatred, but "freedom of speech" in the USA allows that. Similarly, the officer who clicked his gun by the bomber's head to find the location of the remaining bomb in, (Faluja, I believe), got humiliated, harassed and booted out of the service despite the obvious saving of lives by that, torture". So our society is not quite balanced and up to snuff. Still were way ahead of other places!

There is, in fact, much in common between right-wing Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. If one believes one is on the side of good and the path to heaven, and combine this with hubris, then we have Crusades and homicide bombers, two sides of the same coin.

The balance to is to protect folk in exercising personal differences in culture and customs and to educate us to use the law to protect us from abuse.

As for the Italy, it's beautiful, but with 6 men juries that are not sequestered, (and have not just peers of the accused but judges too), there's a lot lacking for anyone expecting the rights of the protection individuals we take for granted in England and France.

Frankly, if Italy had taken the accused Taliban fighters, who doubts that their civil system would be unable to get convictions in almost every single case. if the prosecutor so wished? After all, according to all the reports of the Amanda murder trial, one needs no fingerprints, DNA evidence, witnesses or other facts. The prosecutors could just make a video with actors and then at the end show the results of an explosion in Kabul with dead all around and get an easy conviction.

Since the Afghanistan campaign is a Nato operation, that's what they might do and save a big headache and expense of American civil trials planned under the Obama adminstratoon.

Asher

I haven't followed the case, so was not sure what verdict to expect, but I do recall early on in the investigation what appeared to be contamination of DNA evidence and of the crime scene itself which should have created reasonable doubt at least, although I am not well enough versed to really comment except to say this: my knowledge of how the 'law enforcement' authorities work is that they often will do whatever it takes to get a result and almost don't care who it is as long as someone is seen to pay for a crime. That way they clear up their casebook and look like they are being effective - which is not always synonymous with delivering 'justice' or doing what is right.

This had gone on for two years and was very high profile around the world...they were under a lot or 'pressure' to get a result to make them look effective. I do not know whether Knox and Solecito were the perpetrators of this (didn't they convict someone else for this already?) and frankly I cannot imagine how anyone could do such a thing unless they were out of their minds on drugs and had no sense of reality or consequences, but I have a sense the Italians had to get a conviction to save face almost.

Which is preferable? To have a guilty person go free due to a technicality such as failure to follow due process or contaminated evidence...or to send an innocent person to jail for any length of time, let alone 26 years? Given the choice of two options I would let the guilty one go free rather than convict an innocent.

And yes, Wendy's point is well taken. No 'civilised' western country like the UK or USA can take the moral high ground here when you look at the circumstances around Guantanamo and 'extraordinary rendition'....in fact the whole pretext for the conflicts in Iraq and Afganistan is illegal and immoral and abusive...sorry this should be in another thread

...one last point...what seems to have passed almost unnoticed recently in the UK is the shameful implementation fo the Lisbon Treaty aka EU Constitution, on which were were never given the vote or referendum which we were promised and deserved resulting in the transition from the principles of habeus corpus based upon the Magna Carta to the principles (sic) of Napoleonic Law whereby we will be assumed guilty until we prove our innocence...this is shocking and scary and this is what our great country has stooped to...is it 2009 or 1984? I keep forgetting...

sorry one more last point

we are about to see the great AMERICAN JUSTICE play out soon also with the shameful extradition of a man with Asperger's Syndrome from the UK whose 'crime' was to have hacked into USA's military computers looking for evidence of UFOs. If convicted, as he surely will be due to the same 'saving face' issue I talked about above, he will also no doubt get a lengthy jail sentence..

Frankly, he should be given a medal and hired as a security consultant to the CIA, NSA and the Pentagon since this 'disabled' young man was able to show them how poor their computer security was. The ones who should be prosecuted are not him but the highly paid buffoons who are paid to keep the system hacker-proof. I think they should employ talented hackers all over the world to test their systems

Nigel Allan said:

I do not know whether Knox and Solecito were the perpetrators of this (didn't they convict someone else for this already?) and frankly I cannot imagine how anyone could do such a thing unless they were out of their minds on drugs and had no sense of reality or consequences, but I have a sense the Italians had to get a conviction to save face almost.

Which is preferable? To have a guilty person go free due to a technicality such as failure to follow due process or contaminated evidence...or to send an innocent person to jail for any length of time, let alone 26 years? Given the choice of two options I would let the guilty one go free rather than convict an innocent.

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I agree! I don't think it does anyone any good to have folk convicted on less than overwhelming evidence when there is no obvious danger to public safety to do otherwise. I must say I'm disappointed in the Italian justice system.

Nigel Allan said:

And yes, Wendy's point is well taken. No 'civilised' western country like the UK or USA can take the moral high ground here when you look at the circumstances around Guantanamo and 'extraordinary rendition'....in fact the whole pretext for the conflicts in Iraq and Afganistan is illegal and immoral and abusive...sorry this should be in another thread

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I have no doubt that we can have high judicial standards and still deal with combatants in civil courts. The trouble here is that the folk captured are a mix of violent fighters and people in the wrong place at the wrong time! We are all fortunate not to have the burden of deciding the right approach. People who plant bombs are not mere criminals. These guys are warriors. As a prisoner of war, they can be kept until the end of the war. As a plain criminal, trial in a reasonable time is required. So it's important to discern which category they fall in and have systems to keep records so that cases can be filed in either criminal courts or military ones.

Nigel Allan said:

...one last point...what seems to have passed almost unnoticed recently in the UK is the shameful implementation fo the Lisbon Treaty aka EU Constitution, on which were were never given the vote or referendum which we were promised and deserved resulting in the transition from the principles of habeus corpus based upon the Magna Carta to the principles (sic) of Napoleonic Law whereby we will be assumed guilty until we prove our innocence...this is shocking and scary and this is what our great country has stooped to...is it 2009 or 1984? I keep forgetting...

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I'd like to know what the French or Germans think of the Magna Carta. Do mainland European kids even ever about this in school or college?

Nigel Allan said:

sorry one more last point

we are about to see the great AMERICAN JUSTICE play out soon also with the shameful extradition of a man with Asperger's Syndrome from the UK whose 'crime' was to have hacked into USA's military computers looking for evidence of UFOs. If convicted, as he surely will be due to the same 'saving face' issue I talked about above, he will also no doubt get a lengthy jail sentence..

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Yes it does appear a little tough. I must say I didn't realize he was checking up on the latest UFO reports. Smart guy! Still, he has a good chance of getting released here as appeals work pretty well in cases like this.

I wonder what he found out!

Asher Kelman said:

I have no doubt that we can have high judicial standards and still deal with combatants in civil courts. The trouble here is that the folk captured are a mix of violent fighters and people in the wrong place at the wrong time! We are all fortunate not to have the burden of deciding the right approach. People who plant bombs are not mere criminals. These guys are warriors. As a prisoner of war, they can be kept until the end of the war. As a plain criminal, trial in a reasonable time is required. So it's important to discern which category they fall in and have systems to keep records so that cases can be filed in either criminal courts or military ones.

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The reason a lot of these so-called combatants were 'in the wrong place at the wrong time' is because Bush and Blair waged an illegal and unjustified invasion of another sovereign state. I guess if another country invaded the USA and had their soldiers on American streets people would understand how this feels and feel rightly indignant if those who uprise against the invaders were held without trial in a concentration camp for several years.

The incidents of 911 were not justification as to this day it is still disputed who actually perpetrated them. There is no proof is was al quaida or anything to do with the Taliban, this was a convenience for the Bush/Blair axis to march on this territory, and besides the history will no doubt reveal that the 'war on terror' waged against Afganistan was planned before these 'attacks'. This is a whole different thread from where we started, Asher, and while I don't want to get into a debate about 911, Iraq or Afganistan I just wish to make the point that one cannot take as 'gospel' that 'we' are right and 'they' are wrong. This is propaganda and your thinking is muddied by the American news bias I believe.

Nigel Allan said:

I just wish to make the point that one cannot take as 'gospel' that 'we' are right and 'they' are wrong. This is propaganda and your thinking is muddied by the American news bias I believe.

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Me? I don't even take gospel as being gospel! I'm fully aware of propaganda and particularly attuned to history and a broad basis for news. There's no foundation for thinking that I'm "taken in" or have muddled or "muddied thinking". My sources of news is so varied, database of facts too broad and my rational training too deep to allow for such to happen. Still, it does require that I remain sober!

Rather, I'd suggest that anti-Americaism might color the old Euro zone's interpretation of everything touched by America, including Tony Blair. From my experience, over many decades, I have found empirically that Western Europeans tend to hold an anti-american bias whereas former Eastern European satellites of the former Soviet Union hold the opposite stance.

On an individual basis, all Europeans seem to like things American and Americans, one at a time. However, when they have to think of the American state, then folk, (in the original lands of USA's masses), develop unease. There is some cultural blindness and memory loss to the imperial backgrounds of the member-states of Europe. This gives rise to a set of constructs where Europeans are peace-loving and America is one huge avaricious war machine. Rather, it might be that, like in a game of Cricket, it's no longer the turn for the Europeans to be up for bat. The Europeans had their innings, but they don't see that at all. That's what's going on perhaps.

Asher

Asher I am far from anti-American. I just question things that look odd to me, regardless of the news media or what the politicians tell us.

Something stinks really putridly about the whole "911 -al qaida - Afganistan - Guantanamo - Iraq - Patriot Act - petrodollars" affair. I have lumped them all together as a single unifying concept as they cannot be judged separately. They are all related and it is far too big an issue to discuss here. But I don't buy this 'enemy combatants' justification for what has taken place the last 7-8 years.

If there are war criminals that should be tried, then their names are Bush and Blair, who, inter alia, lied to their respective electorates and parliaments to wage war. There is far far more to this than meets the eye

I call a spade a spade and it has nothing to do with either anti or pro Americanism. Isn't it curious that Afghanistan recently held elections and that even though the elections were judged to be rigged it is the incumbent, Hamid Karzai, whose people were responsible for rigging them, who has remained in power while the opponent withdrew? So much for Bush's claim that this is about bringing democracy to the area.
From war on terror to bringing democracy to bringing stability to the area...what next?

Why don't they just say that Afganistan stood in the way of a major pipeline and that Iraq, amongst other things, had the unfortunate geography of being situated on top of a western oilfield and Saddam was not within his rights as leader of a sovereign state to decide to sell oil in Euros instead of petrodollars?

They'll soon run out of lies and excuses and smokescreens and sooner or later the dumbed-down electorate who are satisfied with the culture of celebrity, a ball game on their flat screen TV and a six pack might eventually wonder why on Earth did we go to war in these places? Why are we sending out our soldiers who themselves now question what they are fighting for?

I think we need to get together when I'm next in London and drink some beer!

There is no simplistic petro-dollars reason. The Taliban do exist. They were hospitable to and protected Al Queda and the latter did send the 9/11 bombers. Iraq was a poor decision, in the line of Imperial Bush. It was a stupid act for it removed the one enemy of Iran! Now the Sunni oil Sheikdoms are under threat. Possibly Mecca and Medina too. Bush is not known for his educational prowess. (Still, anything done to Saddam was justified by his mal-treatment of the Shia and the Marsh Arabs and even though that's an unintended by-product, it's a good balance of history).

Afghanistan has been the graveyard of many armies. The job for the world is not to make Afghanistan democratic! It should keep its Islamic character and just not become a base for Al Queda. The problem is that Afghanistan is an essentially tribal society and democratic elections are still run via that standard. So based on the local measures of value, it's Afghani. Based on our way of doing things, it's not an honest democracy. However, we do not need to expect that! We just need it to function so that money given for hospitals, roads, training, blankets or food gets delivered and not kept by corrupt officials. A system of police and justice is needed to that some state can function in the vacuum left by the Taliban. It's going to be a compromise and although it might have a democratic patina to it, it will essentially be a patched up tribal alliance network favorable enough to Pakistan and Washington.

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

I think we need to get together when I'm next in London and drink some beer!

...the vacuum left by the Taliban.

Asher

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Can't wait for the beer, Asher

I believe there will be no vacuum...they cannot be destroyed because they are a philosophy or ideology not a race or politcal party.

And yes there is much more to it than petrodollars, but that was a nice side benefit for those who led us down this path. Their real goal is being realised as we speak with the enslavement of the west not the middle east.

9/11 will become known as the time they stole our freedoms (Patriot Act and the phony war on terror stemming from this 'Pearl harbour' pretext for war) and 2008 will become known as the year they stole our wealth with the orchestrated financial collapse and ensuing 'debt' we all owe. It's all part of a grand plan, but 'nuff said....I'll confine my commentary to photography

"... more advanced countries"; "more advanced countries with established and revered judicial systems and traditions- the United States comes immediately to mind". Quotes like these are at odds with much that I read about US justice. Among the examples is a famous sports star who seemingly got away with murder because of race issues (you know who I mean); law students that discovered dozens of false convictions because the poor and members of racial minorities had minimal access to capable defense lawyers; the contention a few days ago of whether one drug or three is preferable for lethal injection!!! and so on. Have I been reading subversive and misleading content in those 'established and revered' US news publications I sometimes read or what? The impression I glean from those US sources is the judicial system favors the middle-class strata and upward but is awful for the poor.

Michael_Stones said:

"... more advanced countries"; "more advanced countries with established and revered judicial systems and traditions- the United States comes immediately to mind". Quotes like these are at odds with much that I read about US justice. Among the examples is a famous sports star who seemingly got away with murder because of race issues (you know who I mean); law students that discovered dozens of false convictions because the poor and members of racial minorities had minimal access to capable defense lawyers; the contention a few days ago of whether one drug or three is preferable for lethal injection!!! and so on. Have I been reading subversive and misleading content in those 'established and revered' US news publications I sometimes read or what? The impression I glean from those US sources is the judicial system favors the middle-class strata and upward but is awful for the poor.

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Fiddlesticks, Michael!

Would you rather then plead your case in Moscow or Milan or maybe Burma, Myamar? Of course there are miscarriages of justice. But the system is designed to prevent people having blood feuds and hacking of limbs. It is only the most reasonable way to deal with unreasonable situations.

Justice is a goal, an idea but we are not there yet. Still, it's something Western Nations try for. Otherwise it's just who has the guns who makes the law.

I think you'd always have a better chance in US courts than most other places.

Asher

Nigel Allan said:

Can't wait for the beer, Asher

I believe there will be no vacuum...they cannot be destroyed because they are a philosophy or ideology not a race or politcal party.

And yes there is much more to it than petrodollars, but that was a nice side benefit for those who led us down this path. Their real goal is being realised as we speak with the enslavement of the west not the middle east.

9/11 will become known as the time they stole our freedoms (Patriot Act and the phony war on terror stemming from this 'Pearl harbour' pretext for war) and 2008 will become known as the year they stole our wealth with the orchestrated financial collapse and ensuing 'debt' we all owe. It's all part of a grand plan, but 'nuff said....I'll confine my commentary to photography

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So Nigel

What of the massacres in Ruanda, is that USA too and the Darfur atrocities, that too? Then where is Chechnya, also part of the conspiracy and folk beheaded in the Phillipnes another US conspiracy.

The economic meltdown? A conspiracy? Not at all! It's the consequence of unrestrained population growth and demands for energy, capital and growth. That's the problem facing us. The money is just a symptom.

All the Western countries were Imperialists. They didn't return any ill-gotten gains. All the major museums in the Western have hoarded treasures of the countries they "civilized". The Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Italians all at some point extracted wealth and materials from lands they dominated. The Americans are just recently doing their thing but with far less evil than the empires of Europe. You cannot play a game then criticize the last guy with the dice and not yourselves who just recently left the gaming table.

No conspiracy, just decadence sand indulgence of the West and low wages of the East!!

Asher

whoa...relax...I never blamed America. This is not about America, it is about abuse of power...Tony Blair has blood on his hands, and the European Commission, well, I believe that's all part of the problem. I am very very concerned by many many things - of which the subjects of this thread are only facets - that we are drifting inevitably and quickly towards a World remarkably like the one depicted in movies like Gattaca

We're all entitled to our opinions but I actually do believe the global financial crisis was orchestrated, maybe not planned to the last detail, but in general terms. You do not agree, and that's fine. I also happen to believe that 9/11 was an 'inside job' - not because I am some pathetic, wacky conspiracy theorist who has been brainwashed but because it makes more sense than the official explanation which is full of holes.

It was actually my gut reaction when I first heard about it on the day it happened. My immediate reaction was that it was the 'Pearl Harbour moment' that was needed to create a big enough pretext to start the wars in Afganistan and Iraq. To the poeple whose interests are served by such wars a few thousand civilian casualties in NYC is a small price to achieve their ends. To this day it has never been 'proven' that al qaeda perpetrated it and they have never accepted responsibility - which terrorists usually do - although they may have gloated, quite understandably.

Asher, we have different viewpoints but I am not anti-American. The people who are damaging America and abusing its Constitution and sending their soldiers to die in and invade far off lands are anti-American and unfortunately it is some of the people they've put in charge over the years.

But these power hungry abusers are the political and financial elite of all countries and this is where it has nothing to do with nationalism as this is an international challenge. I love the USA and have lived there on a couple of occasions and despite its faults I believe it is the last bastion of freedom in many ways because the American people have it ingrained in their psyche. I may well end up living there again one day due to the way UK society and government is sliding into a morass. At least the basic freedoms are mainly unchallenged there. The climate change fascists in this country are going to make everyone's lives very unpleasant over the coming years...another can or worms, so perhaps I should stop before everyone attacks me LOL

Nigel Allan said:

This is not about America, it is about abuse of power...

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Correct. Power games, questionable ethics, and fundamentalism.

One does need to see historical events in the proper perspective of time, but in this day and age it's hard to claim ignorance.

We're all entitled to our opinions but I actually do believe the global financial crisis was orchestrated, maybe not planned to the last detail, but in general terms. You do not agree, and that's fine.

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I don't believe in such a conspiracy. It's much more mundain, spending more than the value one creates cannot go on indefinitely. The reason it 'worked' for so long was part of an ingenious 'plot' if you like, and was created by decoupling exchange rates from the gold standard and unilaterally proclaiming the US$ as a fiat currency in 1971 (AKA Nixon Shock). For an introduction to the mechanics involved search for "Bretton Woods" and the things that followed. Yes, the USA played a major role in that, but that's not a surprise as a major stake holder in world economy. The ensuing problems have more to do with the poor ethics of people than with any specific country. The abuse of power for personal gain is a result of ethical myopia.

I also happen to believe that 9/11 was an 'inside job' - not because I am some pathetic, wacky conspiracy theorist who has been brainwashed but because it makes more sense than the official explanation which is full of holes.

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There are holes in both scenarios, but the Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt (FUD) tactics of the previous US administration to gain unrestricted power, could only lead to abuse when coupled with poor ethical standards of some of those in power. The damage that has caused to the credibility of the USA as a reliable partner is one of the triggers of the economical situation we are in today, but there is a long complex path leading to it, riddled with many different power games (not only USA).

But these power hungry abusers are the political and financial elite of all countries and this is where it has nothing to do with nationalism as this is an international challenge.

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Indeed. Unfortunately those in power are often elected into office by poorly informed citizens. So the power abusers feel strengthened to abuse, because they can (and have few ethical restraints).

The climate change fascists in this country are going to make everyone's lives very unpleasant over the coming years...another can or worms, so perhaps I should stop before everyone attacks me LOL

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Coping with climate change is another power game ... One can only hope that common sense wins from short term opportumism (questionable ethics).

Cheers,
Bart

Asher Kelman said:

Fiddlesticks, Michael!

Would you rather then plead your case in Moscow or Milan or maybe Burma, Myamar? Of course there are miscarriages of justice. But the system is designed to prevent people having blood feuds and hacking of limbs. It is only the most reasonable way to deal with unreasonable situations.

Justice is a goal, an idea but we are not there yet. Still, it's something Western Nations try for. Otherwise it's just who has the guns who makes the law.

I think you'd always have a better chance in US courts than most other places.

Asher

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Asher, try to respond to the content of the post not with truisms about what was neither stated nor implied. Seasons greetings, Mike

I tried to respond to this thread a day or so ago, but was unable- I was in Dubai, which censors access to photographic sites (something there to comment on but it's their country).

I don't know much, but what I have learned in five years of working in Iraq and Afghanistan is that there are people out there who want to kill me for no other reason than I don't share their belief system. That's not a conspiracy, it's a fact. The Prophet, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, said in his last sermon at Medina that all Muslims are brothers. Apparently the word didn't get out completely; most of the victims of the horror I've seen have been Muslims killed at hands of other Muslims.

Is the US justice system flawed and does it favor the moneyed? Of course it is, and of course it does. It's still the best system extant that I know of if for no other reason than it is founded on the presumption of innocence. What prompted my initial reply to this thread was the tossing aside of due process in the case of Jose Padilla, an American citizen arrested in America and held for years without being charged, given access to an attorney, or granted expeditious judicial review.

We, the United States, took a wrong turn after 9/11. People like John Woo distorted the fabric of American justice much more so than does the disparity between the haves and have-nots. One would have thought that after the terrible treatment of the Americans of Japanese descent after Pearl Harbor we would have learned our lesson. Apparently we haven't, and the politics of fear are what we have to fear.

Wendy

Wendy Thurman said:

I tried to respond to this thread a day or so ago, but was unable- I was in Dubai, which censors access to photographic sites (something there to comment on but it's their country).

I don't know much, but what I have learned in five years of working in Iraq and Afghanistan is that there are people out there who want to kill me for no other reason than I don't share their belief system. That's not a conspiracy, it's a fact. The Prophet, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, said in his last sermon at Medina that all Muslims are brothers. Apparently the word didn't get out completely; most of the victims of the horror I've seen have been Muslims killed at hands of other Muslims.

Is the US justice system flawed and does it favor the moneyed? Of course it is, and of course it does. It's still the best system extant that I know of if for no other reason than it is founded on the presumption of innocence. What prompted my initial reply to this thread was the tossing aside of due process in the case of Jose Padilla, an American citizen arrested in America and held for years without being charged, given access to an attorney, or granted expeditious judicial review.

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Hi Wendy,

I agree with most of what you said.

I have no idea wheather the US justice system is the best (although I'm pretty sure the Italian system is not the worst when I look at other examples around the globe), as an outsider there still seems to be a lot of injustice for those who cannot afford a good lawyer. The presumption of innocence isn't always obvious, as in the case of James Bain:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34467096/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Of course all systems have their shortcomings, that's one of the reasons why I'm also against the death penalty, but that would be a whole other subject.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

Hi Wendy,

I agree with most of what you said.

I have no idea wheather the US justice system is the best (although I'm pretty sure the Italian system is not the worst when I look at other examples around the globe), as an outsider there still seems to be a lot of injustice for those who cannot afford a good lawyer. The presumption of innocence isn't always obvious, as in the case of James Bain:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34467096/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Of course all systems have their shortcomings, that's one of the reasons why I'm also against the death penalty, but that would be a whole other subject.

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Bart,

This picture, by Steve Nesius of Associated Press, may well become iconic of the grave injustice of relying on eyewitness data alone. Often, few pictures have been shown to the witness and so when the lineup of look-alikes is made at the police station, the "witness" tends to pick the person made known to them previously! If there is a racial difference between the witness and the suspect, then it comes down to expertise and familiarity with the subtle difference in faces that we may not be experienced enough to really be sure about.

What a joy this man now has, but the $50,000 a year compensation does not cover the lost years!

Asher

Hi Asher,

Indeed, James Bain lost most of his life. It would be good if he indeed can motivate himself to go to school, as a goal in life and to somewhat improve himself.

As a general remark, DNA traces cannot prove that someone was at a scene the moment something happened (because scene contamination is possible through various means), but they can be strong evidence that someone was not at a scene. So one can only hope that even if a DNA test turrns out positive, people keep their calm, and don't jump to conclusions.

Cheers,
Bart