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  #1  
Old November 13th, 2015, 06:09 PM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Default Attacks in Paris

I sincerely hope our Parisian OPFers are safe tonight. I can only think of Nicolas at the moment, I'm sure there are others.
Terrible events!
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  #2  
Old November 13th, 2015, 09:11 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Simply horrific! I'm stunned.
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  #3  
Old November 13th, 2015, 09:21 PM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Europe is and will be, in trouble... we are in presence of a change.

And it is a big one ! It will take some two or more generations perhaps but changes are on the way.
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  #4  
Old November 13th, 2015, 09:43 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
Europe is and will be, in trouble... we are in presence of a change.

And it is a big one ! It will take some two or more generations perhaps but changes are on the way.
No change at all, just the tide coming in.

Yes this is truly horrible!

This is the result of delusional thinking that thought itself can be extinguished by bombing from the air. No one marched in masses in the capitals of Europe for the Sunni citizens in Iraq disenfranchised by the Iran-leaning Iraqi government or the Sunnis massacred by the Alawites in Assads Syria.

So extemest groups got financial backing from oil rich states and a swath of Iraq and Syria was won by the religiously committed fighters with now a far broader agenda than merely toppling Assad! Nothing less than an expansive and all controlling Caliphate with the most extreme interpretation of law. With the West bombing them from the air, we have a natural reaction and international attacks, today in France, tomorrow everywhere they have passports to return to!

I am only surprised at how long it's taken!

Unless the West officially recognizes the Islamic State as a sovereign power and stops bombing them, these attacks will continue and gather momentum. The alternative, that no one is willing to face is putting an overwhelming and summary force on the ground to annihilate them. So the natural consequence will be more outrageous acts and more powerless outrage!

The only answer is either full recognition, (which is only slightly likely to work), or boots on the ground to encircle and obliterate them with huge casualties.

Asher
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  #5  
Old November 13th, 2015, 10:02 PM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
No change at all, just the tide coming in... Asher
I would call it a tsunami !
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  #6  
Old November 13th, 2015, 11:02 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Antonio Correia View Post
I would call it a tsunami !
Correct! One cannot set off an earthquake off the Richter scale in one continent and think the force cannot cross the ocean and come back to devastate one's own homeland! Thoughts need to be fought with thoughts and friendships or else we will end up massacring each other!

Asher
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  #7  
Old November 14th, 2015, 09:58 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Unless the West officially recognizes the Islamic State as a sovereign power and stops bombing them, these attacks will continue and gather momentum. The alternative, that no one is willing to face is putting an overwhelming and summary force on the ground to annihilate them. So the natural consequence will be more outrageous acts and more powerless outrage!

The only answer is either full recognition, (which is only slightly likely to work), or boots on the ground to encircle and obliterate them with huge casualties.

Let me first point out that there are 100 of millions of practicing muslims who are against terrorism and are probably as shocked by these attacks as you are. It is not a problem of a specific religion, it is a problem of fanaticism and fanaticism happened in probably all major religions in past history.

Let me also point out that my firm belief is that human societies should respect the right to practice all religions equally. France, as you undoubtedly know, is a secular state but recognise the right to practice religious activities. Religion is private matter, but protected. The situation is not perfect, nothing is, but workable.

As to the so-called "Islamic State" or "Caliphate", it would be exactly the opposite: a state based on religious observance. There is nothing that the World needs less than that today, for any religion.
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  #8  
Old November 14th, 2015, 10:38 AM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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Yes Nicolas ! Yes. I am of the opinion that structured religion seems to be inherently bad. The true spirit of man is not evil and should understand that...You are equal and all is however when said religions are truly biased opinions and use their own ancient old ideas of how one should be....how can this go on? I hate the idea of sin and guilt and certain ways known to religions to incite their ideas of "how to be-How to think" We are as Nicolas said Love Music Joy Champagne LIFE! These are my opinions only; posted to this thread.

Charlotte-
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  #9  
Old November 14th, 2015, 01:15 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Yes I do agree that human societies should respect the right to to practice religion equally without infringing on the rights of others. However I don't see religious beliefs being the source of the current circumstances of chaos and terrorism. Nothing will ever get resolved when people blame each other it is only when people except resonsisibily for their actions and work with each other for common ground. I see the source of this trouble as being the direct result of a decade and a half of poor U. S foreign policy. This started with the war in Iraq looking for weapons of mass destruction that did not exist. Many countries jumped on this band wagon although we Canadians did not support this war under our Liberal leader Prime Minister John Chrétien Our last Prime Minister Harper under the Conservatives was another story but now we have a new Leberal leader Justin Trudeau and I hope he is not an ass kisser to the Americans.

So after ten years of trying to piece Iraq back together and after thousands of solderiers dead and many more Iraqis dead and truck loads of money spent the U. S moved on.

What started out under the Bush administration was continued under Obama who went on to create change in Libya through the killing of Muammar Gaddafi. The result being more chaos and opened the door to Europe for refugees.

I could go on but we are now reaping the consequences of bad foreign policy for the last 15 years. There are more terrorist groups that are bigger and better equipped than when this war on terrorism started.
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  #10  
Old November 14th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Let me first point out that there are 100 of millions of practicing muslims who are against terrorism and are probably as shocked by these attacks as you are. It is not a problem of a specific religion, it is a problem of fanaticism and fanaticism happened in probably all major religions in past history.

Let me also point out that my firm belief is that human societies should respect the right to practice all religions equally. France, as you undoubtedly know, is a secular state but recognise the right to practice religious activities. Religion is private matter, but protected. The situation is not perfect, nothing is, but workable.

As to the so-called "Islamic State" or "Caliphate", it would be exactly the opposite: a state based on religious observance. There is nothing that the World needs less than that today, for any religion.
Let me start by stating that I believe that humans are inherently good and inquisitive to strangers and considerate. However, orators can spread ideas good or else of fear and hate towards "foreigners". That is the risk in every group that any motivated orator has the option of recruiting followers for peace or for war. If that "war idea" becomes popular, then everyone else in its path can either join or risk subjugation.

This is what is happening right now! We are experience a cataclysmic even of clashing ideas. in a world of competing ideas. Small splinter groups have erupted professing closeness God and are on a successful expansive rampage. If they get away with their advances, their point of view spreads. Right now ISIS is such an aggressive group that has emerged from the complex social movements within Islamic societies. It doesn't represent most Muslims who want as we do to live in peace with out neighbors.

Unfortunately we are faced with a severe reality of an expanding group that is intolerant to other groups and at best, offers the choice of conversion or immediate execution in a horrible and cruel manner. That is a fire that has to be extinguished.

For the future we have to behave with more forethought in dealing with other national entities, where there is some closed society or dictatorship. If we upset the current equilibrium then we own that new problem! But lets put aside what is facing us at present and look to basic values.

Every word you say I agree with, Jerome! I have no issue with Islam, Christianity or worshipping animal figures, as in the Far East. These are all symbols in our attempts to reach for a power greater than ourselves.



As long as the particular adherents of any group or individual respect
the inherent equal worth and rights to life, respect and opportunity for
all other persons, no exceptions, we have no condemnation for them at all.


Any group, teaches others are inherently "inferior" merely because of race,religion, national origin, occupation or sexual identity, must be excluded the benefits our society. That would mean banning them from trade, banking sport and plane landing rights.

In the long term, we can only fight ideas with better ideas. In the short term we have to put out the fires and there will be casualties. But that's the price for neglect and creating vacuums for hate mongers to fill as, (after the defeat of the Russians occupying Afghanistan), we abandoned tens of thousands of fighters in Pakistan-Afghanistan region of conflict. We left an impoverished swath landscape without education and bread-winning capability. Outside funding created 10,000 schools where no secular subjects were taught but poor children could be sustained. Unfortunately this created a new generation of people deprived and with no hope except through Jihad and martyrdom. We cannot break down societies, even dictatorships and expect some democracy to naturally take its place. We allow smashing of dictatorship without committing completely to solving the new problems that naturally flow from lack of national authority.

The vacuum we created in Iraq and the pushing aside of the Sunni segment of the population with no employment directly lead to the current crisis. Each time we intervene, we must do as we did after Word War II, rebuild what we broke to pieces! Otherwise we allow the majority who are good to be subjugated by those who are extreme are driven passionately by their own ideas of exclusivity.

So it's not about Islam per se or even Sunni Islam. It's about a future of not bringing up children to have the right values in the first place! Having emphasized that, we still cannot sanely deny the self-defined exclusive and strictly Islamic origin of the ISIS and Al Queda movements acting against us as in Paris yesterday. That is their self professed identity. But we must, as you suggest, take care not to treat all Muslims as if they are part of these vicious movements sweeping the planet! They too are us! It's that complex and paradoxically that simple too!

Asher
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  #11  
Old November 14th, 2015, 02:28 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Let me start by stating that I believe that humans are inherently good and inquisitive to strangers and considerate.
Not quite, and there is ample scientific evidence to that, but a photo forum is probably not the place to discuss it. Let just say that I find Voltaire more suitable than Jean-Jacques Rousseau.


As to the rest: you are discussing ISIS, an interesting state-like creation between Syria, Irak and Turkey. You should not. To my knowing, all the people involved in these attack where French and lived in France. True: they were influenced by a fanatic nebula somewhat related to ISIS. But they are French.

Therefore, the real question is: "how do you convince a Frenchman to wear a belt laden with dynamite, take an AK-47 in his hands and let him loose in a football stadium or concert hall?". There is a specific way to do that and it involves taking from that person all hopes for a decent life and, at the same time, convincing him that a decent life is something only the 1% can afford. That is the crux of the problem.

Interested readers may want to draw parallels with their own countries.
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  #12  
Old November 14th, 2015, 04:26 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
I sincerely hope our Parisian OPFers are safe tonight. I can only think of Nicolas at the moment, I'm sure there are others.
Terrible events!
Hello Andy
thank you to feel concerned but I live more than 500 km from Paris and am therefore not in danger (yet!).
It does not surprise me that in Europe mainly Britain and France suffer these attacks ...

I do not agree with Asher on the fact that only force on the ground is the only solution, the US (with English, French and some other troops) did that in Iraq and Afghanistan with the disaster that we know ... The air bombing of the coalition (mainly the USA, England and France, leaving aside for the moment the attitude of Russia and Turkey).
These coordinated responses with Kurdish troops have made great successes in Sinjar yesterday and Kobané sme months before...
It is avery complicated situation in Syria, there are so many different groups, armies, interests…
Who really knows how to get rid of this?
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Old November 14th, 2015, 04:54 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Hello Andy
thank you to feel concerned but I live more than 500 km from Paris and am therefore not in danger (yet!).
It does not surprise me that in Europe mainly Britain and France suffer these attacks ...

I do not agree with Asher on the fact that only force on the ground is the only solution, the US (with English, French and some other troops) did that in Iraq and Afghanistan with the disaster that we know ... The air bombing of the coalition (mainly the USA, England and France, leaving aside for the moment the attitude of Russia and Turkey).
These coordinated responses with Kurdish troops have made great successes in Sinjar yesterday and Kobané sme months before...
It is avery complicated situation in Syria, there are so many different groups, armies, interests…
Who really knows how to get rid of this?
As I said, only a ground force can do the work and the Kurds until recently were only given night goggles because of Turkish objections. Now they are being given arms and air support. They cannot do it alone and the criminals can't be allowed to escape back to Europe where a lot of them came from!

The Kurd can't fight alone!

...and as I said, ideas can't be defeated just by air bombing!

But right now, the entire world stands with Paris and France and the source of many of our ideas on the humanity of every person on this planet!

Salute to France!

🇫🇷

Asher
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  #14  
Old November 14th, 2015, 06:55 AM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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I was thinking this morning with my cup O Joe on the patio just now... France I am so very very sorry!

and then a thought came to my mind and so true -

" We are killing each other for killing each other " and the same circle of words will continue until we stop! killing each other!

Charlotte-
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Old November 14th, 2015, 09:48 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Thank you
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  #16  
Old November 15th, 2015, 11:38 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Thank you
Nicolas,

You have the right spirit!

Baby Bush announced a "Crusade" against the terrorists, LOL! He had no idea what "Crusade" meant as he is not too educated in history........... or much else, for that matter!

Religion does not have to be the enemy. Our real enemy is our foolishness for ignoring festering problems and allowing wonderfully open and hopeful children to grow up marginalized and in despair.

Wine .......I will raise another glass of Wine to Paris, the origin of my own emancipation and the people of France! Cherish everyone today. We have no idea about tomorrow, but especially guide and welcome the children!

Asher
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Old November 15th, 2015, 09:10 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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I must admit I have learned more about the immigrant communities in Paris from the Mahgreb, (West of Egypt) including the plains and the Atlas mountains and French territories in Africa. Some are not poor or worried about unemployment. I am trying to broaden my understanding of the Parisian Immigrant Community from north Africa and West Africa, especially. here are my new findings.





In Europe, for the past 20 years, a highly successful Islamic outreach was directed
to immigrants from Islamic communities. Huge numbers were at risk at risk of getting
lost in the new undisciplined cultures of their host country. The outreach awakened an
identity with Islam that in some was stronger than attachment to their adopted country.
In Paris too, the Mahgreb and French West African immigrants, young folk especially,
identified with Islamic, not secular values. The Koran was central. This would
be a positive influence, providing social values and moral guidance in their lives.


Some become truly devout, some just learned the culture and others may merely keep a Koran in their backpack, without understanding its contents.

Besides all the good results, lobbyists for political factions and recruiters from Jihadist groups now had a prepared population hungry for connection. So, yes, poverty and unemployment might help radicalize some, but not be needed for others who have jobs or who don't need them having other sources of income. So I may have over-emphasized the role of unemployment in the drift some have had to extremism.


Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; November 16th, 2015 at 04:55 AM.
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  #18  
Old November 16th, 2015, 09:56 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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No matter how we view the perpetrators, the source of the basic tenets of modern civilization, Paris, France 🇫🇷 Is under attack! The ideas, intents, oratory, blood lost and heroism gave us, "Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite" and thus "The Rights of Man" in a Republic, free of the dictatorship of princes and religion, but delivering freedom of, to and against worship, as we ourselves choose.

There is much pain today and no doubt more to come. However France 🇫🇷 is resilient and strong. The community of Parisiens has now grown to cover the globe.

We salute Paris and France and mourn the victims. Right now we must pray for the skills of the doctors and nurses and the healing power built into our bodies and souls that they will recover fully.

I spoke to my Muslim friend in Pakistan and he said "Daish is not us!" We must remember that distinction. I spoke to my friend in Bulgaria, she was crying all day for the horror brought to the center of wisdom, logic and humanity, the streets of Paris!

Asher
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Old November 16th, 2015, 10:38 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
No matter how we view the perpetrators, the source of the basic tenets of modern civilization, Paris, France ���� Is under attack! The ideas, intents, oratory, blood lost and heroism gave us, "Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite" and thus "The Rights of Man" in a Republic, free of the dictatorship of princes and religion, but delivering freedom of, to and against worship, as we ourselves choose.

There is much pain today and no doubt more to come. However France ���� is resilient and strong. The community of Parisiens has now grown to cover the globe.

We salute Paris and France and mourn the victims. Right now we must pray for the skills of the doctors and nurses and the healing power built into our bodies and souls that they will recover fully.

I spoke to my Muslim friend in Pakistan and he said "Daish is not us!" We must remember that distinction. I spoke to my friend in Bulgaria, she was crying all day for the horror brought to the center of wisdom, logic and humanity, the streets of Paris!

Asher
"ISIS may be a perversion of Islam, but Islamic it is" Is it important for me to acknowledge this distinction? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things, is it important for me and others to know this? Would it be dangerous to just ignore this or is it just a futile debate?
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Old November 16th, 2015, 02:04 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
"ISIS may be a perversion of Islam, but Islamic it is" Is it important for me to acknowledge this distinction? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things, is it important for me and others to know this? Would it be dangerous to just ignore this or is it just a futile debate?
James,

There is no such debate possible, if we start with respect individual freedoms as a given.

That attack on France was an attack on principles of freedom of to and from religion. So not differentiating between murderous sects and the vast majority of believers would fundamentally erode out own hard won principles of freedom of thought.

Asher
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Old November 16th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
"ISIS may be a perversion of Islam, but Islamic it is" Is it important for me to acknowledge this distinction? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things, is it important for me and others to know this? Would it be dangerous to just ignore this or is it just a futile debate?
James,

There is no such debate possible, if we start with respect individual freedoms as a given.

That attack on 🇫🇷 was an attack on principles of freedom of, to and from religion. So not differentiating between murderous sects and the vast majority of believers would fundamentally erode out own hard-won principles of freedom of thought that we hold sacred for our civilization.

Asher
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  #22  
Old November 16th, 2015, 02:08 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Oh, it is very important to realize the Islamic State is Islamic. This is a good article.
Don

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/
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Old November 16th, 2015, 03:23 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Oh, it is very important to realize the Islamic State is Islamic. This is a good article.
Don

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/
Don,

Remarkable writing! Of course, ISIS is a reincarnation of 7th Century Islam and as such it's genuine and not perverted Islam, but an apocalyptic movement no less than him Jim Jones's group, except it runs a state and collects taxes and mints coins over an area larger than the U.K. But, in numbers it's a splinter sect and very different from Islam practiced by the vast majority of the hundreds of millions of pious Muslims around the world.

......and yes, it's to our peril to not realize exactly what 7th century practice requires!

Yes, merely claiming Buddhism, Christianity or Islam are, as the PC folk insist, "Religions of a Peace" is really Interfaith or "Baby Bush" wishful and naive nonsense or else delusional thinking.

Trouble is people know more about The Kardashians,, Channel or Elvis than about the origin of religions and like to think they all must be good as we are good!

I have a longstanding deep interest in the evolution of human society and massacres, so ISIS doesn't surprise me. OTOH, besides a scant few figures, I am ignorant of stock prices or of most sports teams where my children, by contrast, can recount all the players, coaches and scores! I am essentially a social outsider, LOL!

But I can tell you what happened in all the villages in Turkish Armenia from 1915 to 1918 or discuss the flu pandemics or the nature of dying in a World War I trench covered with mustard gas! I am not a popular conversationalist, I guess!


Asher
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  #24  
Old November 16th, 2015, 04:01 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr. View Post
Oh, it is very important to realize the Islamic State is Islamic. This is a good article.
Don

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/
Thanks for the link Don! I wonder why the current U.S President refuses to acknowledge this distinction and why is he participating in an illegal war against Bashar Hammar al-Assad? He should pull out of there and start arming the Kurds and work with them against ISIS This would make more sense.
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