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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

How do you use OPF?

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I can only speak for myself:
For me, being here is meant to be a stretch to think and examine myself, it's not a way of thinking that I'm comfortable or familiar with and I doubt it will ever be easy for me. But I enjoy the challenge.

Sometimes that means that I disappear for a while when the rest of my life intrudes, other times it means that I don't have the words and I really struggle to engage with a discussion.Still other times it's hard to not to discount my own opinion and say nothing.

On an organisational note, I have real trouble keeping up with the forums: the prefixes, multitude of sub-forums and so on really get to me. I struggle to make sense of the wall of words. If I see something interesting and don't bookmark it I have trouble finding it again.

Hello Sam,

That's good input. We'll address "How to get there?"

First re number of fora, we're always looking to join different rooms together and that may happen with DLR's as there is really little advantage of one over the other. What's important for Nikon, for example the wonderful 14-24 wide angle zoom might be also a major advance to Canon Eos users. They can also benefit. They'd get ideas on arguably the best lens, (albeit only in manual focus), to use with any Canon Eos camera. So, currently, totally separate these cameras is somewhat limiting.

If one is especially interested in one topic, for example travel or street photography, then that's where one looks. However, that can be tedious if one is interested in a number of general topics, say nature and also studio photography and processing from RAW. The prefixes cut across all sections and they are searchable terms. So one can find all the challenges or critiques and using one of the prefixes together with a specific topic should get your new posts faster. Maybe we could have saved searches or look at your viewing habit and suggest related threads.

Let's see if other ideas are suggested.

Asher
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
My internet connection here has been disgusting. I started reading this thread then lost it for a week or so.
Conversations about cameras and photos bore me shitless (I added that crass word for emphasis; not to demean the conversation or affect any sensitive souls). Having a conversation around the contents or circumstances of a photo is much more interesting. I'd be less interested in Marks photo of grass than I would be of why the **** he took it in the first place. I would be more interested in why there are deer on the beach than the sharpness or composition of Jarmo's photo. After all, isn't that what photos are about?
So if the content doesn't interest me I don't comment. If its a totally boring photo I might say so. If its one of my photos I'll write you a bit of narrative about the life and times of.
Thats the way I treat any conversation about photos. Maybe that's why I've been thrown off so many forums. Its not what people want to read.
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
On a personal basis, my comments are predicated mostly on one factor:

1. Reciprocity. I shall comment maybe once or twice. If I am ignored, then I too shall ignore. Civility and courtesy also share the same value table with me.

" Is this my fault for taking pains to respond to pictures I like and inhibiting others? ". I understand, and highly appreciate, the effort that you put into your responses.
Maybe you have put the bar too high and others might expect that anything less would be insufficient.

In my opinion, a very simple acknowledgement of a posted image ( or article ) is all that is required to get the ball rolling. Encouragement is a very basic human necessity and does wonders for the human ego. Not everyone has to comment on everthing. But each one of us can make the effort to at least comment on the orphan threads.

You have stated that OPF does not want to be another ' Flickr '. Fair enough. But let's not be the stoid curators of a research section of some museum either.

Kindest regards.

Ladies and gentlemen!

It's noticeable that some folk post their pictures and then com,e back many times to look for a response but don't wander around doing exactly that for the others who are similarly waiting for feedback!! So how do we function? I see great pictures that deserve more attention.

So what's the solution? Is the quality of the pictures intimidating to some of us so that there's a fear of making some remark or sharing an opinion that would appear naive or foolish.

Is this my fault for taking pains to respond to pictures I like and inhibiting others? Why do some guys who post good pictures not routinely comment on the others? Who do so many folk just look on? Is it my doing?

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Fahim and Tom,

I especially value your replies. I feel that intros are a generous way to share pics. Sometimes the subject is wonderful & also is a request for technical comments. Still, didactic , pretentious or even well meaning essays might be a turn off: point well made.

Asher
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Having a conversation around the contents or circumstances of a photo is much more interesting. I'd be less interested in Marks photo of grass than I would be of why the **** he took it in the first place. I would be more interested in why there are deer on the beach than the sharpness or composition of Jarmo's photo. After all, isn't that what photos are about?

That is one way to look at it. Other people take pictures of stones or beaches without deer, just because the result makes the gaze of the buyer move around the frame, which is apparently an inherently pleasant thing.

Maybe pretty is the word. Pretty has generally been undervalued lately.
 

Jarmo Juntunen

Well-known member
I would be more interested in why there are deer on the beach than the sharpness or composition of Jarmo's photo. After all, isn't that what photos are about?

I think so too, Tom. To me photography is a wonderful way to relax. And to record my everyday life. I'm quite happy to be a complete hobbyist with no aspiration what so ever to someday make a living out of this. And I'm very thankful to Asher for keeping this site going. There is a certain friendly air here that I haven't found on other forums.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
It's noticeable that some folk post their pictures and then com,e back many times to look for a response but don't wander around doing exactly that for the others who are similarly waiting for feedback!! So how do we function?

Are they really waiting for feedback? Is feedback really wanted from most users? Or do they come here for other reasons?

I have been taking the forum's motto literally: "Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph". To get to an impressive photograph, I am interested to hear from other users whether my photograph impresses them or not. This is my idea of feedback. This is what I am interested in, but I think I am an exception. And, obviously, I see no point in giving that kind of feedback to people who do not want it.

I am not interested to discuss the story behind a photograph here. I am not interested to present pictures of my private life, places I have seen or things that I do to discuss the content, what happened and the particulars of the situation. When I do that, I do it with friends and family because they can relate to the particulars of the story since they know me personally.
 

Mark Hampton

New member
I post - comment and try to comment more than i post work. I sometimes provide context - sometimes not with my work.

the grass thread was a disaster, that was my fault. I forgot people have a tendency to like what they like and don't think about what they see. so grass is just grass. I later provided a context of sorts but by that time people were wrapped up in other posts.

So i make work as I would do and share some here. I try to put ideas out that may not be addressed by others on the forum - and when something strikes me I will think about it and then come back.

some peoples work hits me others I find as anal as they must find mine. As with most things its give and take - i learned along time ago that what i make is not me and if people cant relate with it then so it goes... its not a personal thing for me.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Probably the reason why we all come back here, even if its from time to time, is because of the variance shown here. Dispite the token representation of responses, which is all you get anywhere in any forum, each of us do as we please when we please. Once upon a time the possibility of sharing images with others was limited to family and friends with the slide show or album or for the more industrious, a show, publication or postcard. Now the options are vast and so is the potential audience. But like the rellies in the living room watching reruns of the trip to Corfu some will sleep through it all, others will comment on those that interest them and the there will always be the irritating photo buff who tells you how you should have taken the shot.
You win some; you lose some. You wear it or swear it.
Either way, you'll only be famous in your own lunchtime.

Cheers
Tom
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Probably the reason why we all come back here, even if its from time to time, is because of the variance shown here. Dispite the token representation of responses, which is all you get anywhere in any forum, each of us do as we please when we please.
Tom,

Thanks for that point. I think you've identified a key draw of OPF, "variance". A broad intake of characters and capability, gets us really diverse and interesting forms ....and values. I guess it's a magazine of what people do with a camera, snap to fine, weird and abstract.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Once upon a time the possibility of sharing images with others was limited to family and friends with the slide show or album or for the more industrious, a show, publication or postcard. Now the options are vast and so is the potential audience. But like the rellies in the living room watching reruns of the trip to Corfu some will sleep through it all, others will comment on those that interest them and the there will always be the irritating photo buff who tells you how you should have taken the shot.
You win some; you lose some. You wear it or swear it.
Either way, you'll only be famous in your own lunchtime.

Cheers
Tom


until%2Bnow%2B289.JPG


Angela Simione:"wear it, swear it."

It's not just pictures, being shared online so openly. It's also music. The CD method of distribution created a filter beyond which most creativity could not pass. Now music is published on the internet by anyone and then one will be "famous for at least 15 people"source

Asher
 

fahim mohammed

Well-known member
Hi Jerome. I respect what you say and believe. Having said that, and based on some of the lovely
images you have shown us; do I see some contradiction in some of the things you mention and quoted underneath?

I, quite often, discuss the story behind a photograph, most of my pictures are of places I have visited and I do provide content, when I feel it appropriate.

I share content and particulars of a pictures situation with 'friends ' here at OPF and other fora
and feel no hesitation in doing so. Maybe because my images are not impressive enough to stand on their own. Maybe because they form a part of a bigger story.
And because I like too. Maybe that is undesired.

That is just my way. But it can never be the only way. I respect that.

I post pictures that I think might be of interest to others. They might not be. I appreciate that.
I post a lot of pictures. Maybe in the hope that out of the many I choose to post, someone might like one.

If I did not want to share my pictures and my thoughts, I would not belong to any fora. Photographic or otherwise.

Kindest regards.

....
I am not interested to discuss the story behind a photograph here. I am not interested to present pictures of my private life, places I have seen or things that I do to discuss the content, what happened and the particulars of the situation. When I do that, I do it with friends and family because they can relate to the particulars of the story since they know me personally.
 

Sam Hames

New member
Tom,

Thanks for that point. I think you've identified a key draw of OPF, "variance". A broad intake of characters and capability, gets us really diverse and interesting forms ....and values. I guess it's a magazine of what people do with a camera, snap to fine, weird and abstract.

Asher

And I'll add something related to that (a byproduct of?), a definite positive is there is no homogenising group style - everybody seems to engage on a deeper level here without trying to push.

I get the prefixes now too! Didn't realise how important they were to how the rest of you read the forum!
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Interesting perspectives through this thread. Without fear of being clicheish I would say different strokes for different folks (although I can't stand that word 'folks').
One thing I have noticed in. This site is the lack of 'post and let be' approach that can exist on other sites. One might even feel compelled to say something about the image posed in OPF just because it might be expected. There have been occasions I have felt the desire to post a nice picture I took and thought otherwise 'cause someone will expect me to say something deep and meaningful. Most days I don't do 'deep and meaningful'. It's far too depressing. So I head for the sarcasm, self-flagellation and irony for which I am well received here (see, I can't help myself). As for sharing stories on images I'm happy to make up a good story if that's what is needed. I would never let the facts get in the way of a good story if it gets people to take notice. After all, if it's not about me I'm not really interested.
I'm currently preparing my notes for the next run of students for Semester 2. My introductory lesson discusses what photography is. In that discussion I suggest that the most important element is the person who takes the picture. Those with big cameras and small penises find it difficult to come to grips with that idea but as their camera becomes of lesser importance and their penis ( or the female equivalent) gets bigger they are happy to agree, focus on their own thoughts and share them in their own personal way.
Our in-house joke becomes:
That's a great picture. You must have a really good camera.
No. I have a really good opinion of myself.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I'm currently preparing my notes for the next run of students for Semester 2. My introductory lesson discusses what photography is. In that discussion I suggest that the most important element is the person who takes the picture. Those with big cameras and small penises find it difficult to come to grips with that idea but as their camera becomes of lesser importance and their penis ( or the female equivalent) gets bigger they are happy to agree, focus on their own thoughts and share them in their own personal way.
Our in-house joke becomes:
That's a great picture. You must have a really good camera.
No. I have a really good opinion of myself.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate a bit more? I understand the part about the camera not being important (and one of the nice features of OPF is indeed that it is generally exempt of camera brand wars which plague many other photography forums). I don't understand the part about the need to have a good opinion / large penis.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
I don't understand what you are saying here. Could you please elaborate a bit more? I understand the part about the camera not being important (and one of the nice features of OPF is indeed that it is generally exempt of camera brand wars which plague many other photography forums). I don't understand the part about the need to have a good opinion / large penis.

My apologies for my strange way of describing things, Jerome. As they say in other places: 'you should have been there'.
I don't know if it's typical of Australian or not ( I don't know them all) but the few I know seem to use irony, sarcasm and a strange and peculiar humour derived from our convict background, a slow and lethargic way of life and a heavily infested dose of homophobia, sexism, bigotry and blarney to explain things as they see them.
Unfortunately, as you have found out, most of the civilized world just don't get it and any amount of explaining would only add to the confusion.
Although it may seem, on the surface, we either talk a totally new English dialect and never take anything serious, it's not true.
We do take things serious, very much so. Why only yesterday my friends had a high level discussion on the temperature at which beer should be drunk. And only last week Christine was given a thorough dressing down after suggesting I should pull my weight around the house and vacuum the floors. Such demarcation is unheard of in our society. After all, women's work is women's work. That would like me suggesting she could use my D3. Unheard of!
So, Jerome, if you fail to understand what I get at some days, it's probably the cultural chasm between us that would need to be overcome first.

In a nutshell, what I was getting at is this.
You can have a good camera and good skills but until you complete the profile with a good approach, you photos will always be ordinary. A good approach is derived from the way one feels about themselves. Feel good about yourself and you're on the way.
Like a bloke feeling good if he has a big penis.
And don't tell me you don't have just a little penis envy from time to time.

Cheers
Tom
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
In a nutshell, what I was getting at is this.
You can have a good camera and good skills but until you complete the profile with a good approach, you photos will always be ordinary. A good approach is derived from the way one feels about themselves. Feel good about yourself and you're on the way.

I am surprised. I would not have expected that "feeling good about oneself" would have that importance. It does not appear to be the same in other visual arts, for example painting. Many famous painters did not feel good about themselves: Van Gogh, Munch, Gauguin, Goya, for example.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
I am surprised. I would not have expected that "feeling good about oneself" would have that importance. It does not appear to be the same in other visual arts, for example painting. Many famous painters did not feel good about themselves: Van Gogh, Munch, Gauguin, Goya, for example.

I can't speak for Van Gogh and the lot but I'm fairly confident that there would be just as many who did feel good about themselves. They may have been just a bit pissed of with their work from time to time. Even I get frustrated about my photos and I know I'm perfect.
Besides, there are those that believe art and angst go hand in hand. That might well be taken as not feeling good about oneself. I'm more inclined to think its them not feeling good about the rest of us. An interesting and debatable point, I'm sure.
Maybe its just me but I reckon if I got up in the morning and though: 'What a great day to be alive. I'm feeling really good about who I am and what I can achieve. Sure, I have a few thinks to sort but i know i can do that. Why, I think my penis has actually got bigger during the night as well.'' then I am in a better frame of mind to accomplish great things; even a nice picture of the neighbours cat pissing on my pot plants.
Now, if I'm really down on myself and blaming myself for my own inadequate perceptions and the rest of the world for whatever is left then I might miss the point totally when I take a picture.

So, as you can see, my approach to my classes is clear. Work with what they have, ensure they are happy with their growth, leave them each day knowing they are on the right track, develop their confidence, skills and knowledge, and place them in a contented frame of mind. In other words, feel good about themselves.

Don't you think that's a better approach than telling them they are all **** at photography and they should cut off an ear to feel the pain needed to do good work?

How many ears have you got, Jerome?

Cheers
Tom
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
So, as you can see, my approach to my classes is clear. Work with what they have, ensure they are happy with their growth, leave them each day knowing they are on the right track, develop their confidence, skills and knowledge, and place them in a contented frame of mind. In other words, feel good about themselves.

Now I understand better what you meant. Thank you.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
If I did not want to share my pictures and my thoughts, I would not belong to any fora.

Yes, but you are posting pictures about a subject which interest people: the history of one of the major civilizations of this planet (which is indeed largely ignored in western culture, unfortunately). Not only you want to share your pictures and your thoughts, but other member want to see your pictures and read your thoughts. It goes both ways.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
You definitely have an invite to dinner if you are passing.

Thank you, but I don't think I will be able to take on the offer. Australia is far. Although, I have actually been to Australia, a tiny part of it (Sidney), once and I would probably enjoy to come back.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
There is something I would like to add. You'll probably find the story ridiculous, pretentious and mock me, but I would rather write this anyway. Just consider it as a note to myself.

Tom, I think that your views on photography and your public despise of "artsy farts" can only be understood when one realizes that you are an art teacher. The local academy of arts had their yearly exhibits last week and I enjoyed visiting it. From the exhibition of students' works, it was clear that part of the teaching, at least in first year, was about letting the students explore and find their own ways. I can imagine that their teachers also told them to believe in their own ways of doing things, to feel good about themselves. Or, to use your words, to believe that their penis was at least as big as anyone's else.

I suppose that your attitude about "photography as art" stems from the same mindset. Experimenting new ways is a good thing, a necessity even. If students were only told to respect art masters, there is a real risk that instead of experimenting their own ways they would just try to imitate what others have done or try to find a script leading to a good picture. There is no script leading to a good picture, obviously. Therefore students should be told to believe that they are as good as the masters (potentially), so that they develop their own styles rather than copy somebody else's success.

But OPF is not an art school. I don't think that there is much risk of anyone here starting, for example, to go out and shoot B&W landscapes on a view camera with the intent to make the eyes of the viewer move around, to paraphrase a resident artist here. There is very little risk to have a member here trying to copy a master in order to make a good picture.

Most, probably all, members here are not art students. I can't be sure about others, but I suppose that, just like me, they never had the opportunity to meet a teacher encouraging them to try their own ways. Outside of an art school, the experience that meets us is that out ways of seeing things or any experiment we can try do not interest anybody. In the world outside art schools, you are judged on your technical abilities and whether the subject of the photograph is appropriate to the viewer. If I take a picture of my sister's baby, it is a good picture to my sister and mother (and rightly so). If I take a picture of, say, a stone because I find the shape or color interesting when drawn flat in a photographic frame, it is not interesting. If I take a picture of a landscape, it is only good if it is sharp and looks like a postcard. The rules are simple, strict and never change. The internet only exacerbates this behavior, BTW: the rules to be popular on photographic sites, Flickr for example, are quite similar. I suppose that it is just how life is. And of course, there is nothing wrong with people liking postcards, they are designed to please them.

My experience with photographic courses for adults has also been similar in some ways. I quickly learned that the teachers had their own ideas of how a photograph should be. It is just that their reference were not postcards or classical portrait painting like my mother, but historical photographers. With the last teacher I met, the rules are equally simple: do something that looks like the New Topographics and it is good. Anything else is not accepted. It is not about what I may think or feel, but whether the vision meets the one the teacher has in mind.

So why the analysis of others, then? Well, even if I don't have anybody to appreciate them, I still try to take the pictures that please me from time to time. Call this a compulsion if you want. Or pretentious, it probably is. But when I watch one of my pictures I like, I don't know why it pleases me. I can't understand my own pictures, I can't deconstruct why they please me. Probably I am too close from them. But what I can do is to look for pictures by others which please me and deconstruct these. That works for me, and then I get a better feeling of why some pictures please me, including mine. I am just trying to understand. "Understand" may not be a very good word, maybe I should write "to get a better feeling about the process".

However, in one aspect you are probably right: I can analyze other peoples' pictures privately if it helps me but I should not write my analysis and post them. It is not necessary for my understanding and it bores people to death. It might even be felt as hurtful by the photographer. I should just keep these thoughts to myself, they do not belong in the forum.
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
Jerome, my new best friend, I would only mock you because I would want our conversation to continue. If I agreed with everything you said we would have nothing to say to each other.
I'm about to go to sleep. I've read and reread your comments. Thanks in advance for keeping me awake all night thinking of a response.
I can leave you with this thought though before I nod off. Are we not all students of art, less so In the literal sense but in the sense of discovering our own way as means of expression of our soul.
Those who choose a more formal direction to find that expressiveness might attend a school of art but many don't. Some express themselves on a personal level and never reveal their work. Others choose to make a living from it or seek recognition. Some do it for therapy. That's me these days. It gives me a reason to get out of bed in the morning in addition to Christine giving me a helping hand - or shove.
The snapshot of the kids is just as important as the masterpiece. I know the standards of acceptance is different for each. That's the game we play. There is an overlap and sometimes that takes the snapshot into the gallery.
As I grow old I weiry of the restrictions we place on individual ways of expression. Our arbitrary catagorising of photography has led us to believe one thing when something entirely different is the case.
I think I'm too tired to continue.
Goodnight.
See you I the morning
Cheers
Tom
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
You are right. The snapshot of the kids is important. Good night and sleep well. Don't lose sleep on a response, it is not worth it.
 
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