• Please use real names.

    Greetings to all who have registered to OPF and those guests taking a look around. Please use real names. Registrations with fictitious names will not be processed. REAL NAMES ONLY will be processed

    Firstname Lastname

    Register

    We are a courteous and supportive community. No need to hide behind an alia. If you have a genuine need for privacy/secrecy then let me know!
  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Digital medium format vs smaller formats

Alain Briot

pro member
Actually I said 'almost' as good, not almost as good

You said "compares" and "almost as good". "Better" is the comparative form of the adjective "good".


Actually I said 'almost' as good, not almost as good. Regardless, MFD is not just better, it's the best.
 
Actually I said 'almost' as good, not almost as good. Regardless, MFD is not just better, it's the best.
Do you feel that by MFD being better (or the best) is sufficient to secure survival Alain? ...May I remind you that history has proved different? ...it's what I call the "what the hey" factor above!
I also thing that MF can and should survive, but surely it needs action from makers, I feel that a "going back to my roots" approach, coupled by widening the market base and support of the inexpensive second hand digital market, are essential moves from the makers if they want to secure survival.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Actually I said 'almost' as good, not almost as good. Regardless, MFD is not just better, it's the best.

And I am still convince that no camera is "better" than another (just different) and therefore there is no such thing as a "best" camera. Some people use a pinhole in a cardboard box to great effect.

Now, since you have ample experience with a MF back: what can you do with it that you could not do with a smaller sensor, what does it mean for the end pictures and for which reason are the results different? I have my own answers to these questions, but since you have considerably more experience than I do with a MF back, I am interested in your observations.

(And just in case you think I am just looking for an argument: I am not. I am really interested in what experienced photographers have noticed.)
 
I have no concern on MFD survival for the next 5 years.

......................... And after that?
Why you think Hass (which has changed owners 4 times during the digital era invested on the Luna project and closed down all the Danish premisses Jerome? P1+Mamiya+Leaf is no more than 250 people for 3 different premisses on three different countries, do you think that a few thousand backs annually is enough to support this?
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Because of the other markets, which people tend to ignore: aerial and scientific photography. Hasselblad has a division for aerial photography, and that market is growing in the time of google maps. PhaseOne presented a back that, beyond being a B&W sensor, can be used in the very important UV band. That is a market for medicine, scientific gathering of evidence (police and insurance), process control. And I don't know what the interest for very long exposure is, but I am pretty sure the chips have not been modified for the needs of a dozen seascape photographers.

It is a big market with big money. Fashion and landscape photographers can have the crumbs of that.
 
Because of the other markets, which people tend to ignore: aerial and scientific photography. Hasselblad has a division for aerial photography, and that market is growing in the time of google maps. PhaseOne presented a back that, beyond being a B&W sensor, can be used in the very important UV band. That is a market for medicine, scientific gathering of evidence (police and insurance), process control. And I don't know what the interest for very long exposure is, but I am pretty sure the chips have not been modified for the needs of a dozen seascape photographers.

It is a big market with big money. Fashion and landscape photographers can have the crumbs of that.

I completely agree with what you mention above... that is why I insist that "specialization" in more areas than the current ones (which you mention above) need to be emphasized and that the makers have to expand the market base by strengthening up the S/H market! MF, needs to support its original values which are about giving specialized solutions... no one needs (he likes it, but doesn't need it) just a larger image area DSLR out of it.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
I have seen these videos. I am not looking for the sales pitch of a person with a direct interest in the sales of MF back but in the experience of photographers in the field.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jerome,

Here's your answer:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/is_mf_dead.shtml

And here's some other features of MFD:

Alain,

Yes, the relationship between Michael Reichman is very strong for the CEO and two other executives to come and pay homage to him in his winter retreat in San Miguel de Allende, a small tourist/artist town, way down in the center of Mexico. But it's a two way street. Phase One benefits from Michael's strength as a review with a large following and he gets access to the newest gear and understanding of where the industry is going. The interview is worth the 45 minutes to get insight into Michael Reichman's world of photography, with a great emphasis on human practicality. This gives Phase One hard-nosed feedback that they seek from all their users and value-added resellers. Apart from the blatant self promotion aspects, here's some news. Phase One is expanding their product lines:

  • Leaf shutter lenses from Schneider K and that means overcoming shutter vibrations of the massive reflex mirror of Phase One cameras.


  • An imminent 2013/14 New Phase One camera body with connections for other gear, (e.g., controlling Profoto strobes from the camera), and backwardly compatible with all lenses sold in the past 6 years as well as all Phase One/Leaf Backs.

  • CMOS digital backs with live view side by side with continued CCD back.

  • Continued advances in Capture One software which MR found to have caught up to Lightroom/Adobe RAW and even edged past. (Michael had unusually strong praise for Capture One's ability to correct perspective.)


An admission by MR that he never favored the Mamiya camera, but uses his Alpa with the Phase One Back, is very instructive. Once again, Michael leans towards usability. why get the best back and lenses and get the image blurred by camera vibration. Of course, the Mamiya camera will perform perfectly with Schneider's new leaf shutter lenses.

Does this mean Phase One wil sell 10,000 camera this year: slim chance. However, according to the CEO, sales were highest in 2012, (how to they segregate sales with Mamiya/Leaf/Phase One units, they don't say). but, by the looks of it, the front they present is one of strong growth and optimism.

Asher
 

Alain Briot

pro member
Asher,

In my opinion the most reliable way of finding out if a specfic type of gear - in this case MFD- works for an individual is to try it. Rent it, borrow it, test it, etc. That's what I do, especially when large amounts of money are at stake. Other opinions, as you point out, including mines, are all bias to various extents. Regardless of the reviews that exist out there, or of my own take on the subject, each of us has different tastes and different needs. I personally believe that MFD is the best format today. It works fantastic for my needs and I wouldn't trade it for anything. I love it, just like I love my car (see below). That's my opinion and I share it. Whether this opinion carries over for someone else has to be decided by that person. I can't make that decision.

Buying a MFD system without trying it is similar to buying an exotic or luxury car without test driving it. While it may look great from the outside, the only way to know if it is for you is to test drive it first. Otherwise you're buying a nice 'sculpture' without knowing for sure if you will enjoy driving it or not! Reading reviews and watching testing videos is entertaining but gives no concrete idea of what it feels like to drive the vehicle. For example ergonomics can be an issue - you have to fit comfortably in the car and like the driving position! This is not something you can tell unless you actually drive the car. Same with power delivery. Horsepower and torque figures are only numbers. How the power is delivered to the wheels is what really matters. Does the power come all at once or is it gradual and progressive? Knowing this is the difference between driving a 'dragster' and a car with plenty of power reserve under the foot should you need it. In other words, do you prefer driving a Viper or a Bentley? Only testing both cars will give you the answer to that one!


I spent a good part of the summer last year test driving a variety of cars. In the end my final choice was one that surprised me. It was also very different from my original desire. The multiple tests allowed me to base my decision on actual facts rather than on impressions. Here too, my choice is unlikely to be the one other people make. Here too, this is an opinion and not a fact. All that matters is that driving it makes me happy and fits my taste, whatever it is. And yes, it is most definitely different from other people's taste. This is where individuality comes in!

This of course applies to any car and any camera, but it takes on added importance as the amounts of money involved increase. There is also the issue of specialization. High-end products tend to be far more specialized and less versatile than mid-range products. This is because the later are designed to please a vast number of people while the former are designed to please a small number of people. When a product does not need to please many people its design can be narrowed down to a specific use. High end sports cars are impractical for daily commuting. An affordably-priced sedan or coupe is far more convenient though certainly less fun. Similarly, the functions found on MFDB are limited to what professional photographers need and don't have all the 'gizmos' and software options of mid-range DSLRs.

It all boils down to what you want. For example, do you want convenience or excitement in a vehicle? Do you want to have acess to a multitude of functions on your camera or are you fine working with a minimalist menu? Only you can answer those questions. if you can make a clear choice you are OK. If you want 'a bit of both' then making a decision can give you a serious headache!


AB
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Jerome's advice added to yours is the best way to go. Make sure that the dream camera is really of practical benefit for one's own wants and needs.

Theo's suggestions are also important. There are no end of first class MF bodies, lenses and backs on the used market and one doesn't have to go with the newest and latest.

Asher
 

Alain Briot

pro member
One of the things I have found to be characteristic of highly successful people is the ability, indeed the skill, to explain the resons behind a specific decision in a rational and detailed manner. At first I was surprised by this because until I witnessed it I thought doing so was unecessary. Why rationalize a decision that can be explained away by simply saying 'because I wanted to' or 'because I love it' or other statement to the effect that this was an impulsive and emotional decision.

It took me a while to understand that while such decisions may be impulsive and emotional, when made by a successful person they do contain a fair amount of rational thinking. Why is that? Simply because if you can afford to make impulsive and emotional buying decisions regularly, then the issue is no longer 'can I afford it?' You can. In fact, depending on your level of wealth, you can potentially afford anything. But the problem is that even if your finances allow you to, you can't actually buy everything. There's just too many things avaiable out there. Furthermore, the more money you have the more you are exposed to people asking you to buy things. So you have to acquire skills to help you make valid decisions.

These skills consist of the ability to study and evaluate a given purchase on the basis of your own personal situation, including wants and needs. Once this evaluation is completed you are left with a rational and detailed list of reasons why you did, or did not, make a specific decision.

The most interesting aspect is that this list is definitely not the one that someone else would have made. In fact, the more extreme the purchase the more personal the list becomes. For someone else to argue that the reasons on this list are inappropriate is pointless. They may be inappropriate for someone else but they are absolutely appropriate for the person who made the list.
 
I believe that Alain approaches things from a consumer's POV, where like, enjoy, afford are the key words, while me and Jerome approach things from the artistic and professional POV, where tool, solutions, ability are the key words.... I don't object the approach of Alain, but I feel (judge) that it is oudside the traditional values of MF and I believe that such an approach doesn't secure MF's future... I believe that if MF makers seek customers like Alain says (and the interview suggests), at the end, it will be the "what the hey" factor that will decide their survival....

I don't believe that "higher quality at a price" is what photographers want (car choice is different), they realize that they will have that (and the innovations that the interview suggests) sooner or later with DSLRs too... After all, only less than a decade ago, they couldn't have D800E's quality with any DMF and they where still making great pictures... Just my 2 cts...
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
For me it's what can I best use with my muse! :)

So there has to be some reasonable weight that I can hold at the top of a ladder, or live view so I can mount it on my ladder and then I have to be also be able to hand hold it for at least 20 minutes sessions.

So weight and user friendly buttons and possible tethered shooting are all advantages. All these come with more modern cameras. Pentax seems to be behind in tethered shooting, at least with Capture One.

Asher
 

Alain Briot

pro member
I don't believe that "higher quality at a price" is what photographers want (car choice is different), they realize that they will have that (and the innovations that the interview suggests) sooner or later with DSLRs too... After all, only less than a decade ago, they couldn't have D800E's quality with any DMF and they where still making great pictures... Just my 2 cts...

Agreed but the real issue is what MFD will offer later down the road, not what it offered 10 yrs ago or today. To survive MFD will have to continue offering something that no other camera offers. So far this has been the case and that's why MFD is still around and thriving.

The comparison with automobiles continues to be valid in this context. Today a Lexus, Acura or Infinity offers much of what was found exclusively on Bentleys and other high end luxury cars a few yrs ago. Still, Bentley is still going strong, stronger than ever in fact, in part because they continue to offer new and exclusive features found nowhere else, and in part because ownership of a high end luxury car is a statement about one' s social status. For example the 2013 Mulsanne comes with a built in wifi hotspot able to connect 8 individual devices. No other car offers this as a standard feature to my knowledge. Will they later down the road? It is very likely, but right now if you want that feature you have to get a Mulsanne or install it yourself. If you can afford the Mulsanne and like Bentleys you'll buy the car. If you can't afford it you'll learn to live without it, go to public wifi hotspots equipped locations when you travel or install it yourself in your vehicle. Eventually need and income define ownership and use of such items.

In the end the question is not whether one can find the same features on lower priced cameras or cars down the road. The question is where do you get these features today. When one purchases a high end luxury product one does so because one can afford it and one wants access to the very best, with the most exclusive features, and with a limited availability. It's really a lesson in marketing.

MFD is a luxury product. As such its marketing follows the rules of luxury products. Exclusive features, limited availability, price-limited access, high perceived value, superlative quality, acceptance in an elite community are some of the reasons that drives their purchase.

Because the purchase of luxury products is linked to income, I expect the purchase of MFD to increase as the economy recovers.

The first challenge with understanding this marketing approach is that it is very difficult to find out, or guess. which features will be present on luxury items down the road. If you can, chances are you are designing, creating and selling luxury items rather than talking about their upcoming demise!

The second challenge is to put ourselves in the shoes of the target audience. Even though we may not be able to afford these products, there are people buying them every day. Understanding why they buy is key to understanding why luxury brands stay in business and why they continue to prosper.
 
Alain Briot is a professional while I am not.

I was talking about the approach (POV) Jerome... Not all pros. have the same needs, for Alain a hi-end P1 back may be an ultimate solution, for me, a back that doesn't provide multishot and "true color" is totally useless, it really has to do with the type of work each one does... my objection with Alain (and the interview) is that lower value equipment provides only lesser quality, but does the same thing.... which can lead the user to say... "what the hey" at some point and more so as tech advances...
Never the less it was very encouraging in the interview that P1 (and leaf) don't consider "closing" their system like Hasselblad did...
 
Top