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  #1  
Old June 1st, 2016, 11:51 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Default Shooter at UCLA 2 males dead!

Right now UCLA, the prestigious state university in Los Angeles is on lockdown, to the extent that doors can be locked.

2 are dead of shotgun wounds, place is saturated with police cars, swat teams, city and campus police, sheriffs with FBI too.

My wife is safe behind a locked door. However the door to the plaza won't lock from the inside! Someone else locked secured their door with a leather belt!

Search under KABC.com for updates!

Asher
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  #2  
Old June 1st, 2016, 01:24 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Glad Wendy is safe!
Ban arms for civilians.
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  #3  
Old June 1st, 2016, 05:02 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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oh, this is horrible; I didn't know Wendy worked there; glad she is safe.

So crazy! :-(
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  #4  
Old June 1st, 2016, 11:56 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Sad and tragic. It seems that a frustrated and "wronged" graduate student shot one of his professors. As Nicolas has mentioned, civilians don't need guns.

However, if campuses are going to be gun free, then the administrations should have plans to actually guarantee everyone's safety.

Not being able to lock one's door seems unjustifiable.

Each week, another school in the USA has a shooting incident.

Gun advocates better come up with solutions to this situation. I do not campaign against owning guns, but in the math, it does not appear that owning guns actually saves lives in the population at a whole!

Asher
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  #5  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 05:26 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Sad and terrible news indeed. Glad that Wendy is safe.

We were watching the live news most yesterday.

There is a police report out that during the Memorial Day weekend, there were 60 shooting incidents in
Chicago alone. They said the incidents were down from last year!!

Unbelievable.
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  #6  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 08:54 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Sad and tragic. It seems that a frustrated and "wronged" graduate student shot one of his professors.
Firstly, I am so grateful that Wendy is safe.

These things are hard for me to imagine, but of course I grew up in a different time, and a different world.

I was occasionally disgruntled with one of my professors, but I would never have shot one. Two reasons, at least:

• It would have been unthinkable

• I didn't have a firearm

The notion, promoted by the NRA and enunciated by presidential contender Donald Trump, that if most college students had firearms, the incidence of gun tragedies on campuses would essentially disappear, is just wrong, in several meanings of the word.

I personally would prefer it if, in actual fact, there were no firearms except in the hands of commissioned law enforcement personnel, military personnel, and the like.

But I recognize the long tradition in this country of the use of firearms for hunting (a sport I do not personally approve of), target shooting, protection against marauding predators on a ranch, and such.

Then there is the slightly-less-long tradition of drive-by shootings, mass shootings, accidental shootings, and miscellaneous firearms carnage.

I'm afraid there is a giant gap between those two "traditions".

I think it is such gaps that distinguish "civilized" societies from those that are not so much,

Best regards,

Doug
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  #7  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 09:04 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Thanks, Nicolas, Maggie, Fahim and everyone else for your kind thoughts about Wendy's safety. We do feel each other's anxiety and pain and this is a great time to show one's loved ones and friends extra appreciation for just being there for us!

Wherever guns are, obviously gun violence is increased. In the USA alone, we have approx 1 innocent person in a household accidentally killed by handling an unsecured firearm. In addition, it should be noted that about 62% of the deaths in the USA, (about 3 an hour), are suicide). So one can see that the guns first victims are in the homes that possess them and all these are victims. When time and caution are removed from the immediacy of a weapon, suicide might not be so inevitable as there is time for reflection or counseling......or rescue by medical treatment of overdoses. Guns, however are designed to efficiently kill, so the caution and social factors are gone in an instant.

A good start for looking at the USA problem is [URL=http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-deaths-and-injuries-statistics/]here for some very interesting reading.

It does seem that "The Right To Bear Arms" in the USA, protected by the Constitution, is actually 2/3 "the right to suicide by bullet" and 1/3 "the right to guns for a weekend hunting trip or taking care of an assailant intent on doing us bodily harm"!

Asher
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  #8  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 09:31 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Default Discussion on the idea that some "Inherited society "rights" are counterproductive!"

To those who are flummoxed as to why civilians should have some inalienable right to bear arms, (not a right to take the furry arms off bears ), read the legal and historical background here, as to gun owners, it's part of the essence of remaining a free society. Essentially, folk feel that owning a gun allows the individual to stand and defend against tyrant of an outside power or of violent criminals. To advocates, this need for guns is self-evident.

Such seemingly "innate beliefs" handed down from parents to children are collections of dogma and values we are built to follow religiously. At one time it has survival value.

Now, since the majority of deaths are by suicide, the whole concept is out of whack with reality.

However, should some massive increase in home invasion robberies occur, with doubling of the risk of murder of innocents, then once again, owning guns might be justified as a way of preventing such loss.

So it comes down I guess to the pride and aura of holding a gun and the ability to be a super hero or a hunter that remain as honest benefits.

So perhaps as one who is against hunting and does not get seduced by superheroes, I am already so distracted by flowers, trees, the sky and women, that I am left mourning the suicides that could be prevented

But let's face it, the great weakness of man is his devotion to magical thinking, fairy tales, heroes, wise men and other ideas inherited from parents. Now, it seems, critical thinking is dismissed outright as a threat to these treasured "rights". Critical thinking and confrontational debate has been in decline since their successes that buttressed the French Revolution and the upheavals sparked by Marx. Today, orators who garnish our mass respect are mostly movie stars, pop singers, and, (sadly, degrading our climb to our flourishing civil societies, self imposed dystopias), and fanatical religious preachers and hate-mongerers in many of our diverse societies.

Social scientists are viewed as impractical dreamers!

The 21st Century protects inherited "rights" - a sacred 35 hour workweek in France, the God-given right to bear arms in the USA or that obviousness Cows are holy in Hindu India. These are sacrosanct self-evident and even noble parts of our cultures!

If we could deal with such Teflon coated beliefs, likely as not, we'd have a far better world and a lot more to leave to future generations!

Asher
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  #9  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 10:21 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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I am a bit late to this discussion, and I did not know your wife worked at UCLA, but I am glad she is back home and safe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
a sacred 35 hour workweek in France
Just a quick note: the 35 hours workweek is not what French unions are striking about at the moment.
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  #10  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 10:32 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
I am a bit late to this discussion, and I did not know your wife worked at UCLA, but I am glad she is back home and safe.



Just a quick note: the 35 hours workweek is not what French unions are striking about at the moment.
I wish the workers well. Just that it would seem beneficial to open the door to flexibility and to allow the factories to take risks, as they do here, in hiring more workers to meet increased workloads and not fear that these people must be employed forever. Also it could, perhaps, to my limited knowledge, give some increased possibilities for entry into emyment market for students, new graduates and those cramped in Muslim communities. Altogether, having market forces at work, industry has a better chance of growing as those with money and power can take risks.

My empathy is with the less advantaged parts of society. My view is to encourage folk to stay up at night and dream of new ventures and scheme, cajole and work to set up be profitable factories, and then tax them in the morning when the sun rises!

The government can legislate a minimum wage and have a protective basket of social benefits, but there should be acompetitive market for labor as long as robots don't do all the work. When that happens, everyone will have to be given a living wage, even without a job!

Asher
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  #11  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 10:32 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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The following from Reuters, released on Yahoo! News (partial):
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The man accused of fatally shooting a University of California, Los Angeles, professor in a murder-suicide had written a "kill list" that included a woman who has been found dead in Minnesota, Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said on Thursday.

Investigators found the list while searching the suspect's home in Minnesota, Beck told Los Angeles television station KTLA, adding that the investigation extended to Minnesota after finding a note at the crime scene. The list also contained the name of another, unidentified UCLA professor, who was unharmed, and the woman, he said.

“In the residence in Minnesota, we found multiple items, including extra ammunition and also a note with names on it indicating a kill list,” Beck told KTLA.

Police investigated the woman’s home in a nearby town in Minnesota and found she had been shot to death, Beck said.

"Professor Klug's name was on that list, as was another UCLA professor who was alright," Beck told the station.
Best regards,

Doug
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  #12  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 10:48 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
The following from Reuters, released on Yahoo! News (partial):
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The man accused of fatally shooting a University of California, Los Angeles, professor in a murder-suicide had written a "kill list" that included a woman who has been found dead in Minnesota, Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said on Thursday.

Investigators found the list while searching the suspect's home in Minnesota, Beck told Los Angeles television station KTLA, adding that the investigation extended to Minnesota after finding a note at the crime scene. The list also contained the name of another, unidentified UCLA professor, who was unharmed, and the woman, he said.

“In the residence in Minnesota, we found multiple items, including extra ammunition and also a note with names on it indicating a kill list,” Beck told KTLA.

Police investigated the woman’s home in a nearby town in Minnesota and found she had been shot to death, Beck said.

"Professor Klug's name was on that list, as was another UCLA professor who was alright," Beck told the station.

Doug,

It could well be that the student was "wronged" to the nth or was simply delusional. One issue is that universities pretty well ignore the well-being of graduate student-teaching assistants. They are essentially cheap labor. If the student teaches well, the fact that his/her research is not going well is of no immediate concern of the university hierarchy. So this student could very well have felt exploited. I have witnessed the normal occurrence of the ideas of the graduate student being subsumed by "the lab" and eventually the boundaries between the source of the work with the graduate student gets blurred as further and equally smart graduate student get to make progress on related parts of the original work of the first grad student to elucidate out new openings in the field.

Gradually, a whole new substantial body of work can be presented by the professor and his total lab as honestly separate from the first struggling Ph.D. student. Part of that struggle might be simply a fixed goal that is really too adventurous for the capabilities and resources that school can provide the student. So the person who did the seminal work or framed the algorithm can be left behind and deemed sub par. Even if they get a degree, those rare students may be unemployable as they are damaged.

I am not saying that any shooting is justified, just pointing out the extreme forces that can be at play in the path to academic self sufficiency.

I do note that the tragically killed Associate Professor was devoted to his kids softball team and bible study group. I personally can't imagine how that is possible when one has the responsibility of guiding students at the Ph.D. Level.

So I believe there is a lot more to learn from this horrible set of murders than just a fellow went berserk!

Asher
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  #13  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 11:19 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post

It could well be that the student was "wronged" to the nth or was simply delusional. One issue is that universities pretty well ignore the well-being of graduate student-teaching assistants. They are essentially cheap labor. If the student teaches well, the fact that his/her research is not going well is of no immediate concern of the university hierarchy. So this student could very well have felt exploited. I have witnessed the normal occurrence of the ideas of the graduate student being subsumed by "the lab" and eventually the boundaries between the source of the work with the graduate student gets blurred as further and equally smart graduate student get to make progress on related parts of the original work of the first grad student to elucidate out new openings in the field.

Gradually, a whole new substantial body of work can be presented by the professor and his total lab as honestly separate from the first struggling Ph.D. student. Part of that struggle might be simply a fixed goal that is really too adventurous for the capabilities and resources that school can provide the student. So the person who did the seminal work or framed the algorithm can be left behind and deemed sub par. Even if they get a degree, those rare students may be unemployable as they are damaged.
All well said.

Quote:
I do note that the tragically killed Associate Professor was devoted to his kids softball team and bible study group. I personally can't imagine how that is possible when one has the responsibility of guiding students at the Ph.D. Level.
I think you have already given us the answer to that!

Quote:
So I believe there is a lot more to learn from this horrible set of murders than just a fellow went berserk!
There always is!

Best regards,

Doug
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  #14  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 12:16 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
I am a bit late to this discussion, and I did not know your wife worked at UCLA, but I am glad she is back home and safe.
Thanks Jerome for the kind wishes! This was a terrible scare as they could not lock the main door from the building. But they did have a Counry Sheriff with a handgun to defend against the shooter with two semi-automatic weapons!

Imagine being terrified not knowing whether the armed marauding armor-protected police on campus would get the feared shooter/s before their turn came to face death!

I was hours away in a factory welding a sculpture and horrified that the university didn't have basic security of being able to lock out the bad guys! My wife and her coworkers went through a period of terror and living hell! I was helpless to be of much practical assistance. But it was great to be able to reach her by phone and hear her voice!

Glad it's over and so sorry for the victims and the spread of fear and terror when the students were just taking final exams!

Asher
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  #15  
Old June 2nd, 2016, 01:18 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I wish the workers well. Just that it would seem beneficial to open the door to flexibility and to allow the factories to take risks, as they do here, in hiring more workers to meet increased workloads and not fear that these people must be employed forever.
Actually, the 35 hours week was introduced in France in exchange against flexibility: 35 hours is an average per year, the employer can vary that from month to month. It was supposed to help seasonal work.

This being said, there are plenty of things which do not work very well in France indeed. As to the situation in the USA, I should probably refrain from commenting, although I remember that Dave Barry, one of your great humorists, noted about the US economy: "the entire US economy is made in China".

China which, being a communist country, has very little job flexibility. And very strict control on firearms.
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