What's the history of Canon's Responses to Nikon's Advances?

So once again, so, shortly after Canon announces their 18MP 1Dx flagship, Nikon's upgrade from the D700, the D800, offers double the pixels! To me, interested in detail rich large images, this is an advance.

My "given" is that Canon has an ample store of inventions that it has no need to use right now. It's job is to sell cameras and lenses, not to improve photography. Unless application of hard-won new technology will give them some economic advantage, the advances will likely remain unused. My hypothesis is that new advances will be teased out of them each time Nikon or some other competitor moves ahead in their markets or if Canon were to create a whole new market.

So, do you feel that Canon actually behaves in this way, or that it is always delivering its best?

Asher

My feelings are that Canon, or any of their competitors, does not have a "supply of inventions" made in advance. They just started developing 3 years ago the inventions that they thought their competitors will bring to market in 3 years.

Jerome Marot said:

My feelings are that Canon, or any of their competitors, does not have a "supply of inventions" made in advance. They just started developing 3 years ago the inventions that they thought their competitors will bring to market in 3 years.

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Well, Jerome, we do know that Canon has had at its disposal at least two Foveon-like sensors for 3 color layers for each pixel and addressing of each sensel in a CMOS array individually. That has not appeared! Why? Theres' no need currently to defend any market space such a camera would operate in. Still, I do expect the technology to appear.

First I'd expect them to introduce an APS-C mirrorless camera with changeable lenses. For now, their new G1X APS C digicam, albeit with one zoom lens will suffice.

Asher

Since the two manufacturer's mentioned are Japanese companies, I shall introduce

a point of view for your consideration.

The Japanese ethos, culture or whatever one chooses to call it, shall never allow an

advantage so great that the other Japanese competitor shall be run out of business.

It may not be written. It is what it is. A Japanese thing. Total dominance is not thought

of. It really has to do with honor, and only peripherally, with technology.

fahim mohammed said:

Since the two manufacturer's mentioned are Japanese companies, I shall introduce

a point of view for your consideration.

The Japanese ethos, culture or whatever one chooses to call it, shall never allow an

advantage so great that the other Japanese competitor shall be run out of business.

It may not be written. It is what it is. A Japanese thing. Total dominance is not thought

of. It really has to do with honor, and only peripherally, with technology.

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This gentlemanly story has been put forward a number of times. I am not sure if it's true. I do know that at the beginning of the 20th century when a Japanese National army was built, the Samurai were no longer relevant and were soon hired by Mitsui Manufacturing Bank and other trading companies as they could work based on great trust. That does not mean that the Japanese companies were or are honest, but rather that they would not disclose to the authorities any cheating going on.

Most recently, the sale of most spare parts for all Japanese cars, was it seems nothing but a rigged operation with competitors meeting to fix prices. The settlement from the US Department of justice was $548 million, just about a week ago! Similarly Olympus executives did not squeal on one another when the company hid billions of dollars worth of debt. Toyota officials steadfastly refused to own up to defects in the cars breaking system even though they finally admitted shown to be a faulty design in Prius cars. While these cases are in no way meant to represent the business ethics of Japanese mega-corporations, they do cast doubt on the existence of some higher universal code of behavior deserving of our admiration as some enviable guiding morality that binds Japanese Corporations in a way not seen by other global companies. However, we do have a penchant for believing mythology. It's how we like to summarize complex matters.

So I really doubt that there's any basis for us to believe in the legendry chivalry of Japanese companies towards each other. I'm not saying that Nikon or Canon are ever dishonest. Far from that. However, ascribing to them romantic values of some nostalgic Samurai chivalry is, just from current legal cases, likely just many urban legends, wishful thinking.

My bets are on no holds barred competition, but with Canon, the holder of myriads of unused patents, only playing the cards it needs for a particular stake in a game.

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Well, Jerome, we do know that Canon has had at its disposal at least two Foveon-like sensors for 3 color layers for each pixel and addressing of each sensel in a CMOS array individually. That has not appeared! Why? Theres' no need currently to defend any market space such a camera would operate in. Still, I do expect the technology to appear.

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There seem to be a misunderstanding on how corporate research and patents work here.

Sure, Canon did some research on a Foveon-like sensor a few years ago and patented it in the mean time. Please keep in mind the timeline: patents are published 18 months after filing and typically reflect research started one or two years before filing. So the patent reflects a program that was started when it was not clear whether Foveon would be the next big thing.
But Canon does not have a product that could be manufactured in an industrial process. For that more investment would be necessary, and is unlikely in today's context. Still: applying for a patent is cheap and may be useful for a swap if Sigma ever has patents in which Canon is interested.

In short: Canon, just like others, spends money on research and patents. Only a fraction of that research is expected to yield manufactured products.

Asher Kelman said:

So I really doubt that there's any basis for us to believe in the legendry chivalry of Japanese companies towards each other. I'm not saying that Nikon or Canon are ever dishonest. Far from that. However, ascribing to them romantic values of some nostalgic Samurai chivalry is, just from current legal cases, likely just many urban legends, wishful thinking.

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Somewhat. The argument was not that Japanese firms were honest. The argument was that they would not necessarily always compete with another in the purely capitalist sense.

Not romantic Asher and neither chivalrous. Just that I would be hard pressed to think of

one public figure in Japan that would pronounce in public that he/she did not care for the very poor.

Just a difference of culture. Not a difference in human behavior. Japan competes very hard. And very

efficiently. Am I correct in thinking that Kodak invented the digital sensor?

Fahim,

Your quip is off topic but the topic is already off topic, LOL and the point you make is important to address.

fahim mohammed said:

Not romantic Asher and neither chivalrous. Just that I would be hard pressed to think of

one public figure in Japan that would pronounce in public that he/she did not care for the very poor.

Just a difference of culture. Not a difference in human behavior. Japan competes very hard. And very

efficiently. Am I correct in thinking that Kodak invented the digital sensor?

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Fahim,

That, I think, might be a misreading of Romney, you might be having, LOL.

In healthcare, in California, for example, a penniless person can get all the cancer care they need for free in a "County" hospital. The net does not help the independent worker who becomes sick and who has assets. I think that this is what Romney refers to! We have nets to help the very poor but not the middle class workers who fall behind on their home payments and can lose a lifetime of savings by default. So, I could say, I'm not worried about the poor" as far as receiving health care, since they can get it if they arrive at the hospital!

It's paradoxical that while I can advise a poor foreign gardener to go to the L.A. County Medical Center for free care, my colleague who's a photographer and needs medical care and has no insurance has no access to the same free help!!

Health Care, Universal Health Care, (derisively named "Obama Care by the ever caustic and mean spirited right wingers), is really needed in the USA!

Of course, it's too glib to say that we don't need to worry about the poor. But what's meant is that the working middle class are being screwed when the bankers don't lend out the money the government supplied for cheap loans.

Asher

Back to Canon, I believe that Nikon's latest camera, the D800, at 36 MP will shake up Canon and they will respond by giving us a new camera that surpasses it in resolving detail. That would fit in with the appearance of the new 24 mm and 24-70 II lenses. If one looks at the limit of the resolving power of such new L lenses, then one will have the level of resolution they are aiming for in the new 5D upgrade, which has been pending for some time.

Given that Canon can produce a new camera from design in 3 months, barring earthquakes and tsunamis, I don't think we'll have to wait too long for Canon to balance things out. A month to think about it, 3 months to make test models and 3 months to test them. So by about September of this year I'd expect to hear of Canon's answer. I believe it will be magnificent!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Given that Canon can produce a new camera from design in 3 months

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Canon (or anyone else) certainly cannot do that. Designing a new sensor alone takes more than a year.

This being said, and being informed on what the competition is studying for the next years belonging to the realities of the industry, I would be surprised if Canon had not started designing a new camera with 30+ mpix two years ago. It will probably be presented in April or September.

The D700 was presented in July 2008, the competition followed 2 months after the announcement. This kind of pattern tends to come again.

Asher, I might not be fully quoting someone here, but that is common very common...

misquoting, not fully quoting, a word here and a word there ..what's a word between friends..

Whether one CARE for KOMEN or not, such is the way of the world. In one part. The other part/s

might follow a different competitive strategy. That the strategy might be different, imho, is what

I refer too.

Back to Canon and Nikon. Research and develpoment takes time. Step changes might indeed

be ready. But past camera introductions in/from Japan do indicate to me that it is like

climbing on two ladders. Each climber takes one step leaving the other behind. Then the other

takes two. And so on. But not like giant steps from Sony that might leave RCA ( remember them )

dead and dying.

I have said it on OPF before, men use Nikon ( to which some suggested film..Fuji ), and I am

convinced women use Leica, beautiful women at least. Always.

What about the others?, I hear some ask. What others? I respond.

To which my good friend Asher, shall take me back to California. We have come full circle.

Quotes, my dear friend, Fahim, by their very nature, are always selective and out of context. Their job is to buttress meaning about the arguments of now and the upcoming, not some exact truth of the past.

To your points:

fahim mohammed said:

............... to Canon and Nikon. Research and develpoment takes time. Step changes might indeed be ready. But past camera introductions in/from Japan do indicate to me that it is like climbing on two ladders. Each climber takes one step leaving the other behind. Then the other takes two. And so on. But not like giant steps from Sony that might leave RCA (remember them ), dead and dying.

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Well put! That's exactly my impression. The steps must be ready, like weapons and tools in an armory, prepared for rapid response to market changes. If the work was not already mostly done, then catch up would be many years away.

That point Jerome makes very well.

fahim mohammed said:

I have said it on OPF before, men use Nikon ( to which some suggested film..Fuji ), and I am convinced women use Leica, beautiful women at least. Always...........

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In a perfect world

Asher

fahim mohammed said:

I have said it on OPF before, men use Nikon ( to which some suggested film..Fuji ), and I am convinced women use Leica, beautiful women at least. Always.

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I suppose they sometimes do.

Canon will reply shortly! (36MP)

Canon only meters out innovation/new features when forced to when sales drop or a competitor releases new features.

Canon will always one up Nikon. For this I am very grateful to Nikon for prodding Canon to release new features and technology.

Canon almost always releases new innovations and features to increase or hold onto a good profit.

I do not hold this against Canon. The reason I chose Canon EOS is due to there Multi Billion Dollar Research budget that we benefit from.

Canon has always had a very short manufacturing set up time once they make up there minds what the specs are to be for a product.

We must remember that canon not only makes items for sale but, also design and build the very equipment required to make every part of a product. In a few cases they outsource parts (to save cost) that are too generic to produce in-house such as resistors, capacitors, connectors, threaded hardware, inductors, transistors, and simple IC's.

A couple of very quick thoughts:

- Fahim's comments did not refer to either honesty or chivalry really. I don't know if they're factual in terms of Japanese corporate behaviour, but the Olympus and other news items (scandals in western eyes?) are entirely consistent with the 'code' preented by Fahim. So too is the pattern of development from Canon and Nikon

- The Canon/Nikon pattern is also consistent with two industrial giants working very hard to develop the next step up in performacne that will sustain their sales and never quite being able to push far ahead fast enough to delvier the killer blow. That is not surprising that they both, surely, employ a whole heap of very clever people. (remember flight flight and photography itself were inventd in several places at about the same time independently)

- I think Asher and Will display far too much confidence or bravado in Canon's alleged technical superiority and ability to bring new product to market in double quick time - from their stock of future tech. If htat were the case, then Nikon would not have been allowed the bragging rights for the last few years since the introduction of the D700.

- I'm sure that Canon and Nikon have both investigated higher Mp sensors for the new generation of bodies. Perhaps the new 1Dx(?) was inteded to be two cameras but the economic conditions meant htat Canon decided to shelve the high resolution version. Nikon clearly reached the same conclusions for the same market sector however. Whatever Canon do with the 5d/3d etc models, it will refelct what they think will work best for them in th current marketplace, and will contain the best tech they have available at the particular price/profit point.#

I think that analysis largely agrees with Jerome

Mike

Mike Shimwell said:

..- Fahim's comments did not refer to either honesty or chivalry really. I don't know if they're factual in terms of Japanese corporate behaviour, but the Olympus and other news items (scandals in western eyes?) are entirely consistent with the 'code' preented by Fahim. So too is the pattern of development from Canon and Nikon

- The Canon/Nikon pattern is also consistent with two industrial giants working very hard to develop the next step up in performacne that will sustain their sales and never quite being able to push far ahead fast enough to delvier the killer blow. That is not surprising that they both, surely, employ a whole heap of very clever people. (remember flight flight and photography itself were inventd in several places at about the same time independently)

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I agree. Having worked with Yamaha Motors for almost 5 years, I can confirm that this is exactly the kind of competition and attitude as it was between Yamaha, Suzuki and Honda.

Hi, Fahim,

fahim mohammed said:

Am I correct in thinking that Kodak invented the digital sensor?

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As with so many things, just what was the first "digital sensor" might have various meanings. Certainly arrays of discrete photodetectors were used to capture images long before the emergence of "modern" digital still cameras.

Many consider the first digital sensor "mechanism", in the sense that we think of it, to be the CCD sensor, generally considered to have been invented at Bell Telephone Laboratories, Inc.

As I recall, the first camera in the "modern digital camera" line, the Kodak DCS420, revolved around a Nikon film back, and I believe that the sensor itself was in fact developed by Kodak (based on the Bell Laboratories CCD concept).

Best regards,

Doug

Well,

I think that the high end of Canon camera, the 1D series is now facing competition from surprising quarters. Take our own Nicolas Claris, for example, he's gone for the new Pentax 645D digital camera, built by a company that is a master a producing optics for everything from medical instruments to each sector of photography one could imagine below LF. The Pentax at merely $9000 with an 80mm lens sets a standard of price and quality for brilliant resilient pixels that are too close to comfort for Canon's flagship planners for professional photographers.

So perhaps, Canon decided, that just at the moment, while factories are licking their wounds after the terrible Tsunami and the Fukishama nuclear disaster supply problems, they'd be conservative with their new 1Dx model and focus on maintain current base looking for the best pixels, not the most MP! They thought, back then, that at the moment, Nikon has no ~ 40MP threat for them to worry about, so the conservative 18MP camera made sense.

Now, there will be more pressure on Canon to improve that upper MP end. Given the major progress of results of the APS-C size sensors, now become a new standard de jour, packing smaller pixels might be the way to go or else deepening the sensel wells and perhaps going for tricolor layers, the Foveon way. Of course, the other shoe could come down and Canon might introduce it's own Leica S type MF camera to easily support a fabulous major new sales path with lenses to match.

Canon will look to see how her flagship sales stands versus history, the Nikon and the Pentax MF. That's the high end Pro/enthusiast market they have to dominate.

Asher