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  #1  
Old June 21st, 2015, 11:28 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Default Mr. President, Tear down That Flag!



The confederate Flag Still flies Above The S. Carolina State House



This is the symbol the hate-filled white supremacists rally behind. This is the perpetual insult to Blacks. This is now a stain on the fabric of our society. How can we lead when we are not fit to stand before Liberty's torch, a gift of the French and enlightenment!


I ask you to compete to express an address to the President of the United States. We do have a special role. Set a decent example and so lady liberty will illuminate the world!


This is open to anyone, OPF member or not!

Asher
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  #2  
Old June 21st, 2015, 11:37 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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My contribution to this speech!




Asher Kelman: Mr. President. Tear down That Flag!

A Statement to the President, Father's Day, June 21st 2015

In Memory of The Blacks Shot Each Week in the USA


I mean no disrespect to Southern States who have communal memory of the severe losses to their sons. But that is past. Now on Father's Day 2015, we grieve for the continued pain of so many fathers having faced the nightmare of burying, today, their own sons before their time!

Asher
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  #3  
Old June 21st, 2015, 11:51 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Anyone who wants to contribute, register and I will try to expedite your entry. If you have a link to your own work, then that will speed things up as we only invite humans to join and not BOTS!



Asher
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  #4  
Old June 21st, 2015, 12:53 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Just remind me: do you still have the president who promised to close Guantanamo Bay detention camp? The one who was awarded the
Nobel Peace Prize
in 2009?
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  #5  
Old June 21st, 2015, 12:58 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Just remind me: do you still have the president who promised to close Guantanamo Bay detention camp? The one who was awarded the
Nobel Peace Prize
in 2009?
Jerome,

You are so right! But he's distracted! The doors of the White House are like the rungs of the ladder that Julius Caesar perched himself above the senate that lead to his tragic downfall. Obama does not hear the voices that demand attention here, and when he does, he just applauds "unity", "rallying" and such abstractions, instead of intervention with Presidential authority and his name on the line! Obama wants himself held high as a statesman with a far more "important" legacy to the USA and the world. A few prisoners in Guantanamo and only a few Blacks killed a week by police or "white supremacists" are not worth his attention, "right now". More pressing is his visionary state architecture of a "Cold Peace" in the Middle East, he wants to be remembered for.

His obsession is to use an Iranian Hegemony to extinguish ISIS and counterbalance the Arabs in a "PAX Iraniana" and does not wan't to go down in history as the Black President who thinks he's Abraham Lincoln!

Essentially he's looking abroad for his glory

1. Using drones in the delusional notion that one can stop ideas by blowing up people like the people that hate us do!

2. Bypassing the Arabs and Israelis to force a "cold peace" on the Middle East through a balance of strength from empowered Iranians and their allies in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Yemen arraigned against the Sunni states and Israel. Sisi and Natanyahu he doesn't like - better stated, he loathes them for acting out of national self-interest! This way they can stare down the barrels of Iranian weapons and not annoy him!

So far, he has not appeared to take on the regular shooting of blacks by sworn police officers on some hazy pretext of self defense, when it's obvious, the rampage against young black men is driven by the perpetuation of symbols and inter-generational inherited attitudes which view the elevation of blacks to some equality with Europeans is an insult to our intelligence and obvious ethnic superiority as whites! In fact, the clear distinction of Africans, unsullied by slave owners, is their total lack of Neanderthal genes, not any, none at all! So there!

The color of skin, just like eye and hair color does not constitutes a basis for recognizing a "race'. It's an unimportant feature, (unless you are caught by a policeman holding a towel), in evaluating a person's worth! The social construct of race has had it's time and it's a nonsensical classification and well beyond the age of retirement!

Asher
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  #6  
Old June 21st, 2015, 09:35 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Obama has no power to remove the Confederate flag flying above the Confederate War Memorial only the SC General Assembly can and it takes 2/3 vote of both House and Senate. Bills proposed in Dec will not be heard until Jan 2016.

Mississippi has the Confederate flag on their state flag.

Don

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  #7  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 12:44 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr. View Post
Obama has no power to remove the Confederate flag flying above the Confederate War Memorial only the SC General Assembly can and it takes 2/3 vote of both House and Senate. Bills proposed in Dec will not be heard until Jan 2016.

Mississippi has the Confederate flag on their state flag.

Don


Sad! So how does one funds the animus?

Asher
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  #8  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 06:47 AM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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I don't understand. Then should we take down all flags? Does that really stop racism?

Charlotte-
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  #9  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 07:28 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotte thompson View Post
I don't understand. Then should we take down all flags? Does that really stop racism?
I agree with Charlotte. The flag may be symbolic in one sense for some, and in another sense for others. But the flag is not the issue, racism is. And that is much harder to change, because it takes generations and education.

The flag is given more importance than it should, but it also seems to be in the US tradition to do so (pledging allegiance to the flag in schools, does that still happen in the USA?), so in that sense it's self inflicted.

Flags are pieces of cloth, it's the meaning that people give to the flag that can be dangerous.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #10  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 08:11 AM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Part of a series of articles on
Racial segregation
ApartheidSignEnglishAfrikaans.jpg
Australia
White Australia policy, Freedom Ride (Australia)
South Africa
Apartheid legislation Bantustan Bantu Education Act Group Areas Acts Pass laws
United States
Black Codes Blockbusting Chinese Exclusion Act Immigration Act of 1924 Indian Appropriations Indian Removal Act Japanese American internment Jim Crow laws Proposition 14 Racial steering Redlining School segregation
Segregation academy
Separate but equal Sundown town
Elsewhere
Arab world, Ireland, Israel, Latin America, Rhodesia, United Kingdom
v t e
Racism and ethnic discrimination in the United States has been a major issue since the colonial era and the slave era. Legally racist sanctioned privileges and rights for White Americans not granted to Native Americans, African Americans, Asian Americans, and Latin Americans. European Americans (particularly Anglo Americans) were granted in matters of education, immigration, voting rights, citizenship, land acquisition, and criminal procedure over periods of time extending from the 17th century to the 1960s. However, non-Protestant immigrants from Europe - Catholics (Irish people, Poles and Italians) and Jews - suffered xenophobic exclusion and other forms of ethnicity-based discrimination in American society, and were not considered fully white.

Major racially and ethnically structured institutions included slavery, Indian Wars, Native American reservations, segregation, residential schools for Native Americans, and internment camps.[1] Formal racial discrimination was largely banned in the mid-20th century, and came to be perceived as socially unacceptable and/or morally repugnant as well.

Racial politics remains a major phenomenon. Racism continues to be reflected in socioeconomic inequality,[2] and has taken on more modern, indirect forms of expression, most prevalently symbolic racism.[3] Racial stratification continues to occur in employment, housing, education, lending, and government.

In the view of the U.S. Human Rights Network, a network of scores of U.S. civil rights and human rights organizations, "Discrimination permeates all aspects of life in the United States, and extends to all communities of color".[4] While the nature of the views held by average Americans have changed much over the past several decades, surveys by organizations such as ABC News have found that, even recently, large sections of Americans self-admit to holding discriminatory viewpoints; for example, a 2007 article by the organization stated that about one in ten held admitted to holding prejudices against Hispanic-Americans and about one in four did so regarding Arab-Americans.[5]

So if we are taking down Flags" wouldn't we have to take down The American Flag" as well!

Charlotte-
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  #11  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 10:28 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr. View Post
Obama has no power to remove the Confederate flag flying above the Confederate War Memorial only the SC General Assembly can and it takes 2/3 vote of both House and Senate. Bills proposed in Dec will not be heard until Jan 2016.
Exactly. This is what I wanted to say about the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, which President Obama promised and was not able to close down. In the USA, the President is not running the country. We have the same situation in most developed countries, actually.
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  #12  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 11:56 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Just remind me: do you still have the president who promised to close Guantanamo Bay detention camp? The one who was awarded the
Nobel Peace Prize
in 2009?

Yes, and that's the president who after the recent massacre in the African American Church. went off to play golf as usual. He has distanced himself from more direct show of empathy and solidarity with the victims. He has made speeches, but should have flown to S. Carolina for the funerals and their used his Presidential authority and "bully pulpit" to educate America, one small but important gesture.


Asher
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  #13  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 12:27 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
I agree with Charlotte. The flag may be symbolic in one sense for some, and in another sense for others. But the flag is not the issue, racism is. And that is much harder to change, because it takes generations and education.

The flag is given more importance than it should, but it also seems to be in the US tradition to do so (pledging allegiance to the flag in schools, does that still happen in the USA?), so in that sense it's self inflicted.

Flags are pieces of cloth, it's the meaning that people give to the flag that can be dangerous.

Cheers,
Bart

How it works here is that it serves as a collective symbol in the Southern U.S. for people to signal their distaste for blacks. The consequence of which is the pervasive humiliation of blacks by police and killing of young black men. That gets less as one leaves the territories of that flag, but appears in the rest of the country too, but more diluted.

Frankly, the attitude to blacks is still awful. Earl Butz, summed it up with a disgusting summary of his views on the needs of a black man! It was made into a movie, "Loose Shoes" taking this to comedy. The elegance and humorous confrontation of the production pretty much dissolves the inhuman caricature as irrelevant. Still, the undercurrent of less innate value is common as shown by the action of police offers to young black men, "posing a potentially immediate threat", versus casual treatment of white motor cycle gangs actually ripping up a place and killing people.

But Obama is not going to wade into this morass. He's above all this, tied up in executive matters and in between, an executive golf game or executive traffic jam as the comes the the Westside of LA, causing traffic chaos in his incessant political fundraising.

Obama, instead can lead in combatting racism and resetting the national debate. He can continuously direct energy and his status to appeal to the consciences of the people and have the younger population challenge these abhorrent attitudes. As it is, beyond "nice" announcements, he's not "involved".

The flag is a great focus point through which to focus hatred on cultural heritage that's assured and unified around that symbol! It's a more subtle but quite effective rallying point for race hatred, not as bold, but as effective as the Swastika. With the latter, one cannot easily argue that its the proud behavior of the soldiers that we are saluting. However the Confederate flag can be more easily be called to be a noble symbol of local valor.

The President does not just have to use his potent oratory. He also has many options to punish states that publicly promote "hate speech" through official display of the Confederate flag. He can withhold money and contracts to have them change their minds themselves, at the very least, out of self interest.

Asher
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  #14  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 01:30 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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My point was never addressed. There is racism in America under the American flag as it so proudly flies. Is it fair to say Take down the American flag for the same argument as the Confederate flag?
Charlotte-
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  #15  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 01:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotte thompson View Post
My point was never addressed. There is racism in America under the American flag as it so proudly flies. Is it fair to say Take down the American flag for the same argument as the Confederate flag?
Charlotte-
There's racism practiced under white plaster ceilings and clear blue sky as well. Should we ban these too?

Of course not, these are above everything and do not act as "in group" symbols for commonly felt brotherhood in hate that is nurtured, perceived and understood in a glance by its followers.

The U.S. Flag, like the noble gift from France and the poem engraved at its base, represents freedom and dignity for all irrespective of race, creed, national origin or sexual habitus/preference. These are enshrined in law and taught as such to school children. Blacks, whites, Hispanics, Asians, Arabs and Jews all are proud to stand by the U.S. Flag.

However, the flag of General Les's Confedrate Army is uniquely a symbol proclaiming a special biological and spiritual and God-given value to whites over the "inferior" black "race".

What they do not realize is that the so-called whites are essentially migrated blacks to Europe who picked up Neanderthal genes and on the way lost melanin, becoming more susceptible to sunburn, skin damage and skin cancers, LOal!

The US flag does not perpetuate in the USA any thing but pride in the search for Freedom.

Thank yo Locke Berkely and Hume from the U.k. , the General Assembly in France and Napolean for forcing the Rights of Man on taxis Europe and then France for packaging it all into the monumental Statue of Liberty overlooking New York harbor.

Asher
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  #16  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 01:59 PM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
How it works here is that it serves as a collective symbol in the Southern U.S. for people to signal their distaste for blacks. The consequence of which is the pervasive humiliation of blacks by police and killing of young black men. That gets less as one leaves the territories of that flag, but appears in the rest of the country too, but more diluted.
Hi Asher,

I get that, from what I think I know about US history. But the point is, that the flag is not the cause, and banning it would not solve the real issue, which is racism. Banning will only be used as a 'justification' to keep hating, it's not a solution. The solution is complex, and takes a long time.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #17  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 02:02 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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Bart
Exactly my point! Flags do not cause racism. Humans do!

Charlotte-
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  #18  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 02:14 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
Hi Asher,

I get that, from what I think I know about US history. But the point is, that the flag is not the cause, and banning it would not solve the real issue, which is racism. Banning will only be used as a 'justification' to keep hating, it's not a solution. The solution is complex, and takes a long time.

Cheers,
Bart
Of course Bart, the flag alone is not the problem. But it's still humiliating to be seen flown in an official building.

For us here, the flag is a form of speech. In the USA, only the individual has the special right to Fredom of Speech, even "hate speech". The government, however has no such rights to hate speech! As used and intended, that Confederate Battle Flag is meant to inspire pride in the history of white slave owners battling the Northern "negro-lovers"! No black man should be thus offended by State sponsored "hate speech".

At the very least, the Federal Government can withhold Federal money to States that, as public policy fly the Confederate flag knowing it rallies race hatred and division.

Then of course, the massive long term problem of teaching youngsters about humanity and how we must cherish and nurture each other, despite these superficial differences.

First we need to get rid of the focal points, the lighting rides that join the haters to some historical cause. Next we punish those who, under the guise of public safety, stop, harass and humiliate blacks and then at the slightest imagined offensive reaction, shoot them dead!

The flag, alone is neither the core problem not the core solution, but in both "cause" and "cure", it's a key and strong component.

Certainly, right now in 2015, no black man woman and child, entering a public building, other than a war museum), should be faced with a Confederate Battle Flag at the very place where they wish to enter as an equal free citizen. We have no right to allow such indecency to blacks to continue further.

Asher
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  #19  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 02:57 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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Sigh… Wishing all you good people a peaceful evening. This cause will not be resolved by distinguishing any flag as I originally stated. It is a symptom of ignorance,plainly.

Charlotte-
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  #20  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 03:11 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotte thompson View Post
Sigh… Wishing all you good people a peaceful evening. This cause will not be resolved by distinguishing any flag as I originally stated. It is a symptom of ignorance,plainly.

Charlotte-
Charlotte,

I always have a peaceful evening, and the rest of the day, but were all privileged.



To the point, We are not even dreaming we can resolve the issue by simply banning flags, LOL. State flags are a different matter when they represent hate speech.

...............so, why should a black person be faced with that affront in a State Building? That you have not addressed, Charlotte. If you accompanied a black friend into such a building, what would you yourself feel?

Answer that, Charlotte, you are more sensitive than anyone I know!

Asher
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  #21  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 03:28 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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Asher
I don't look at the flag as a symbol of racism. It's just another Southern flag to me. As are people of any race or color just another human being to me!
from " the examiner .."Attacking the Confederate battle flag is a way to avoid the real issue that Roof’s massacre has brought into focus, that being the treatment of the mentally ill. In a strange way, by going after the banner that flew over Gettysburg and Shiloh, the politicians are fulfilling Dylann Roof’s desire to restart the Civil War, albeit without more gunfire. I
Too think the same…
C.
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  #22  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 03:47 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotte thompson View Post
Asher
I don't look at the flag as a symbol of racism. It's just another Southern flag to me. As are people of any race or color just another human being to me!
from " the examiner .."Attacking the Confederate battle flag is a way to avoid the real issue that Roof’s massacre has brought into focus, that being the treatment of the mentally ill. In a strange way, by going after the banner that flew over Gettysburg and Shiloh, the politicians are fulfilling Dylann Roof’s desire to restart the Civil War, albeit without more gunfire. I
Too think the same…
C.
It's not about you at all - your feelings are beyond reproach. It's about the feelings of blacks having to be insulted and confronted by that flag.

It's not, at the outset, about even curing the problem in one stroke. No, that's not remotely possible, as we all agree. But its about the inhumanity of subjecting blacks to a pervasive visual affront to their value and status in a public building. That's the main issue to address first.

Individuals? Let them wave their Confederate flags for now. Meanwhile, we can pull money from the states!

As to this mass killer, mental illness or not, he's a symptom, of course, of the underlying acceptance and promotion of race hatred. Just that he has the mentality to act on what he has absorbed from these hateful memes!

Asher
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  #23  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 04:00 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Disclaimer: I am not fond of flags or other symbols simplifying messages.

From my observation:
People tend to unite behind such a symbol and attacking the symbol does not resolve anything but tends to increase the rift between this group and the opposing group.

Using a symbol to unite is also an easy way of dumbing down the cause as good or bad as it might be.

Present the flag, repeat the message, modify it slightly over the time, shift the goals while repeating the basic keywords over and over and twisting the meaning of it and the mass of followers will follow because it is 'the flag'. Dangerous.

Symbols can be re-branded, the importance of what it represents can be diminished, symbols can become a ridicule of its former meaning.

I am here with Charlotte - attacking the symbol does not resolve anything.

Just an imagination:
Imagine a large barbecue at the very flag pole to celebrate the end of slavery as outcome of the civil war with the POTUS present and descendants of former slaves invited. This with ragtime, blues, jazz, gospel as music and everybody having fun...
The people count - not the symbol!

If you want to resolve things you have to make people talk to each other and you need education, education and if I forgot to mention it - education.

Here is an interesting article and here is the related book (found here).
The most interesting quote is: "fear comes from ignorance"

Michael
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Last edited by Michael Nagel; June 22nd, 2015 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Small addition
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  #24  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 04:17 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
Disclaimer: I am not fond of flags or other symbols simplifying messages.

From my observation:
People tend to unite behind such a symbol and attacking the symbol does not resolve anything but tends to increase the rift between this group and the opposing group.
I don't think that applies here. The anti-blacks will not get worse! They will respond to strong resolved Federal Government action. when jobs are at stake, they will compete to show who loves minorities the most. Americans always like to get contracts for their cities. Politicians rise or fallibly getting Federal Dollars!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
I am here with Charlotte - attacking the symbol does not resolve anything.
We will not attack the symbol, individuals can be idiotic if they wish, hate speech is projected under the US Constitution! But we are not attacking individuals. The can have 11 flags on their porch, LOL! We can avoid them then. The State Capital, however is for all the people, blacks included. States do not have, under the Constitution any such protected right to insult blacks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
Here is an interesting article and here is the related book (found here).
The most interesting quote is: "fear comes from ignorance"
It's not fear of blacks, just discounting their humanness at play. Do you really believe the shooter or the gun toting cops were ever "fearful" of the blacks they shot? On the contrary, they were shot because they are have no value to us, like stray dogs wondering on your property and worrying your sheep.

The idea these shooters have in common is that blacks are merely garbage, to be trashed. But, there's no fear involved to have meetings about, LOL. They don't "fear" trash they burn, just don't want it around!

Michael,

I speak from a special position. I had to go to school in London under police escort or else had to map a different route each day to avoid being attacked as Jews. Our home was attacked regularly, my mother had rocks thrown at her when she opened the front door. Evert journey was a walk through as nightmare of hate.

First one secures the street and the right of a little boy to go to school. Teaching acceptance is another matter entirely. I owe my education to the police protection and a few good teachers that saw in me a child worth helping out. I was raised in a world where Christ-murderer was a common epithet in the school yard, or dirty Jew. I don't want any other child to face such daily humiliation and hurt!

That's my reason for demanding that first, the flag's that demean blacks in State buildings be removed.

I felt the same way seeing young Catholic School girls, about 5 years old, with their neat school uniforms and tiny backbacks, spat on and called "Catholic Whores" and "Mary-lovers" as they had to make their way through the daily terror of the gauntlet of screaming young and middle-aged "Orange" Paisley Protestant supporters.



Here's my strong conviction: First stop the humiliation and enforce
the law! Down the road, look for long term solutions, However, the
latter, is no excuse for tolerating inhumanity to blacks right now.
As for "re-education", that will take another 100 years and that's
far too long to allow daily public humiliation of blacks to continue!



FURTHER COMMENTS


Michael,

In order to not miss anything from your detailed response, I am inserting in blue, my considered thoughts for each of the topics.


"Disclaimer: I am not fond of flags or other symbols simplifying messages.

From my observation:
People tend to unite behind such a symbol and attacking the symbol does not resolve anything but tends to increase the rift between this group and the opposing group."


There are two parts of response: 1. Education, 2. but in the meanwhile, remove symbols that demean others from public places.

In the U.K., incitement to racial hatred is a crome in itself. So perhaps waving a swastika in a rally against non-whites would be classed as a crime. someone who knows might comment on this.




"Using a symbol to unite is also an easy way of dumbing down the cause as good or bad as it might be."


I do not see this as a generally obviously true statement. Can you give examples. I only see the opposite, that symbols unite disparate factions in a contest.


"Present the flag, repeat the message, modify it slightly over the time, shift the goals while repeating the basic keywords over and over and twisting the meaning of it and the mass of followers will follow because it is 'the flag'. Dangerous."

Agreed, yes the flag can have memic properties like religion and politics and then evolve.


"Symbols can be re-branded, the importance of what it represents can be diminished, symbols can become a ridicule of its former meaning."

That's much harder to do in one's living memory. Germany is rebranded., for sure! Germany but not the 3rd Reich's Swastika! Germany is without question, in my mind, one of the most noble states in Europe. Not the Swastika! That, thank goodness, has not been rebranded.

Germany underwent a heartfelt self-education. Austria and Baltic states didn't, as their philosophies and sense of reality were not utterly defeated. They just went with the political flow, LOL. Austria, for example acts as if it was a "victim" of the 3rd Reich, when one could argue humorously that Germany was to some extent a victim of Austrians' Nazis!


"I am here with Charlotte - attacking the symbol does not resolve anything."


It's not meant to resolve any attitudes, my friends, just protect blacks from insults when visiting public buildings!

"Just an imagination:
Imagine a large barbecue at the very flag pole to celebrate the end of slavery as outcome of the civil war with the POTUS present and descendants of former slaves invited. This with ragtime, blues, jazz, gospel as music and everybody having fun...
The people count - not the symbol!"

The African Americans would no doubt boycott such an event, demanding changes first! They's want any black teenager to be safe walking past a police officer while holding something! The black community is more sophisticated than one might imagine. They would say, "First things first! Make out kids safe!"

"If you want to resolve things you have to make people talk to each other and you need education, education and if I forgot to mention it - education."

That can happen with Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Muslims in adjacent neighborhoods in New York. They can share kosher butcher shops, police interactions and a special "orthodox only" bus service! There, in New York, there are no existential threats obstructing their inter community conversations and note they're both "outsiders" in New York, on a level playing field.

For blacks, they are not on the same power or privilege level as the white cops. Just being black, even if you are an emergency room Dr. is grounds for suspicion and being pulled over and harassed. One gesture or movement in error and the doctor would be shot and the cop would claim he was in fear for his life! Here, re-education of the police is what is needed, and if their jobs were on the line, they would simply do the right thing. No big social debate needed. That black boy stopped does not have to chat with the policeman. The government should simply take over the investigation of all such incidents of unarmed black men being shot by police and it would be controlled fast!


Here is an interesting article and here is the related book (found here).
The most interesting quote is: "fear comes from ignorance"

I don't think we're actually talking about "fear" the discussion of which will lead to some remedy. There's "claimed" fear on behalf of the police, after an unprovoked shooting, for sure! That's like a "Twinkie" defense for the son who shoots his father after eating two Mars Bars, LOL!

There is fear, however, on behalf of the parents, brothers and sisters of young black men. That's a given! But they don't need to be engaged in conversation with them about it,. They already do that in their homes.


I hope I have covered your thoughtful comments faithfully now.

Asher
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  #25  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 04:22 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Asher,

I see your point of view, but is this a reason not to start with education, dialogue, doing the right thing NOW?

I do not see anything addressed what I wrote.

A flag is just a piece of cloth when its importance is gone for the people...

Best regards,
Michael
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Last edited by Michael Nagel; June 22nd, 2015 at 04:43 PM. Reason: Response to later editing of post above.
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  #26  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 04:27 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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But Asher…it is about me and every American and every human in this world we live in. I grew up in the South. I know this flag it does not disturb me what it does disturb me is the now critical mass hysteria which in part is "media" that fuels this kind of thing for ratings and of course money. O they have that down very well. To define a history/past and to keep dwelling on it rages a fire even higher and higher… when does it end… This is a huge manipulation imo… I never knew race or flags growing up in the South but under the American" flag I saw a lot of segregation as a child and so young I was…I always wondered "what is wrong with those people that can't drink out of the same fountain as me or go to the same school-Yes under my flag..your flag..
C.
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  #27  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 04:39 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Not so sure President Obama can withhold federal funds without Congress against states flying the Confederate flag like SC, Mississippi and pretty sure he will not go there.
I guess add Arkansas as well.




Quote:
The state's General Assembly reaffirmed the parameters of the flag in a 1987 act that Clinton signed. Among other provisions detailing the flag's features, such as its colors and shapes, there was a line that read, “The blue star above the word 'ARKANSAS' is to commemorate the Confederate States of America.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/0...n_7638542.html

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  #28  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 05:06 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Asher,

In response to your later edits here:

The situation you describe looks pretty messed up - as long as police officers get away with it, there will be no change in behaviour.

The thing with symbols is - here in Europe we had our share of symbols, simple messages etc. and it ended up far too often in violence. This is why most people here are pretty wary of symbols.

I am surprised about what happened to you in London - was there no learning from what happened earlier on the continent or was this the result of the splendid isolation?

Best regards,
Michael
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  #29  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 05:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
Asher,

In response to your later edits here:

The situation you describe looks pretty messed up - as long as police officers get away with it, there will be no change in behaviour.

The thing with symbols is - here in Europe we had our share of symbols, simple messages etc. and it ended up far too often in violence. This is why most people here are pretty wary of symbols.

I am surprised about what happened to you in London - was there no learning from what happened earlier on the continent or was this the result of the splendid isolation?
l

Michael,

British society was very stratified at the time. They had the upper-class families with kids educated at Harrow and Eaton ending up naturally as running the place until the labor party started grabbing power for themselves and Union supporters. The Germans invaded British allies, so we went to war, not to save the lives of Jews, cripples, Roma, the mentally ill or homosexuals.

Hating Jews just came from everyday teaching of the killing and suffering of christ. Shylock is not, so much, a caricature, but exactly what 50% of the population thought of Jews! A group of high school prefects were playing cards when one of them slipped a card from his sleeve. "I saw that! Don't you Jew me!" and then went red, as he realized I was present.

Dissecting our cadaver in the anatomy hall of my medical school, a redhead member of our group of 8, (huddled around the body), remarked, Your Jewish, aren't you. You have to admit the Jews started the war to make money off everyone else"! We let it pass, but that's the issue of deeply embedded racism in the U.K. in my time there as a child and student.

Then we had our very first sick man to examine! The instructor remarked of the the gaunt patient before us, (ribs almost piercing through thin stretched skin, "A sight from Auschwitiz!" But the group didn't follow. They were puzzled and lost. "Who knows about Auschwitz?", he asked, "and not you!, pointing my way. A girl from Poland said words like, I think it was it an action movie!" This incident occurred just 18 years after the liberation of the death camps by the allies! So there's pervasive ignorance!

One huge mistake is to consider that a group of "bad, unusually hateful people simply arose in Germany and called themselves Nazis. Not so, just that the usual antisemites in Germany, (as in all other European countries), used anti-Semitism as their rallying local point and were serious and efficient about it! The Wagner clan acted as the go between to promote and anoint Hitler in his rise to power and have the famously anti-Semitic Henry Ford finance his Mein Kamph. The Wagner estate was in fact the the magnetic center of the theoretical thinking and doctrines of antisemitism, without which, the Nazi party might not have coalesced around an disciplined and effective leadership.

Otherwise, I see no differences in guilt or innocence between any peoples in Europe. Just that Germany, humiliated in World War One was ripe for a new order! I really doubt that the Germans were any more antisemetic than my classmates at school. Most kids were wonderful for sure, as no doubt decades earlier in Germany. But all one needs is 10% bullies to take charge and society becomes a horrible dystopia for minorities!

In high school, it was reversed! college-bound students could see that Jews had a tradition of studies and most won places in the top universities. So many Christians took to finding Jewish study mates, LOL! That was indeed a wonderful surprise to me. I had a few more friends at last!

Now, the influx and growth of so many "British Commonwealth" passport holders has meant that London is no longer a British bowler hatted city as it was in my time, with everyone white and well mannered. Now it's everyone of different races and well-mannered, LOL!

Here in the USA, I am happy that my children have never experienced any racism. They never had to plot a safer way home from school or wait in the principals office for an hour to be sure it was now OK to venture outside. Still, I have not forgotten and have instilled in my children the love of everyone. My grandchildren do not know differences between kids of different colors in their school as having any significance, more than the songs people like. For this I am grateful.

Whenever I return to the USA and see the Stars and Stripes, my heart turns upside down, it's an emotional response that just happens. That flag means to me a society that has as it's goal the pursuit of life and liberty for all its citizens. We are making progress and I'm proud to be here. I do not sing as the Star Spangled Banner is saluted, right hand over hearts, by 10,000 people at a Classical Music Concert. Instead, I stand, out of great respect. The mass of people giving homage to a flag is still unsettling to me, as much as I see this flag as a symbol of good intent and salvation.

Asher
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  #30  
Old June 22nd, 2015, 06:06 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Asher,

I will respond on the other points after some sleep.

Just one thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
"Just an imagination:
Imagine a large barbecue at the very flag pole to celebrate the end of slavery as outcome of the civil war with the POTUS present and descendants of former slaves invited. This with ragtime, blues, jazz, gospel as music and everybody having fun...
The people count - not the symbol!"

The African Americans would no doubt boycott such an event, demanding changes first! They's want any black teenager to be safe walking past a police officer while holding something! The black community is more sophisticated than one might imagine. They would say, "First things first! Make out kids safe!"
Does nobody but me see the potential on the scale of 'don't care' to ridicule by actually going there?
It certainly does not make the kids safer, but if this goes hand in hand with measures to improve the situation for black people it could help to remove the edge of the symbol as people care less about it and would underline the general motion that racial segregation is history and the symbols have only historical value...

A symbol has the highest value if it counts for both supporters and opponents.

If you don't care about the symbol, it is easier to address the individual hiding behind.
This is also one point of the history described in the links I posted.

Fear - there is maybe no fear involved for the people committing the crimes you described, but e.g. crime reporting helps to instigate fear - there was a study on which criteria must be met for a crime to make the headlines - colour was one topic. I cannot find the source right now, but maybe you remember. Otherwise I will have a look - later.

On your answer above:
Splendid isolation may actually be part of the explanation as the influx of of people from other places within the Commonwealth helped to end this situation.

Best regards,
Michael
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