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  #31  
Old November 14th, 2015, 07:02 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Asher, I said that to stir things up because LSU is getting beat and admit I have always been cynical. But seriously you really think the Paris attacks will stop Obama from bringing Syrian refugees into the US ? Also, seems he should grant Christians that are being beheaded safe passage to our country.
Don
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  #32  
Old November 14th, 2015, 07:19 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Our new defense minister has been given his marching orders and looks like our new Prime Minister isn't a kiss ass after all but the new Defense Minister is considered a real badass.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trud...date-1.3317692
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  #33  
Old November 14th, 2015, 07:27 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Trudeau better pray there will not be terrorists among the 25, 000 Syrian refugees he plans to let into
Canada.
Don
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  #34  
Old November 14th, 2015, 07:31 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr. View Post
Asher, I said that to stir things up because LSU is getting beat and admit I have always been cynical. But seriously you really think the Paris attacks will stop Obama from bringing Syrian refugees into the US ? Also, seems he should grant Christians that are being beheaded safe passage to our country.
Don

He has to rescue them before that happens! However, since we're unwilling, so far at least, to put boots on the ground, Yazdis, Shia and of course Christians are beheaded and any females or subjugated to rape and slavery. We should have rescued the entire Assyrian community from Syria a year ago. Israel rescued black Jews from Ethiopia so why can't the USA bribe appropriate intermediaries and then rescue the Christians and Yazdis too.

But it has never been the policy to rescue fellow christians. I do not know why!

Asher
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  #35  
Old November 14th, 2015, 07:41 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Ferguson Jr. View Post
Trudeau better pray there will not be terrorists among the 25, 000 Syrian refugees he plans to let into
Canada.
Don
Yes a legitimate concern Don but I won't loose any sleep over it and will continue to be very vigilant when crossing the street in traffic. I don't set policy but do pay taxes and have to live with the decisions whether I agree with them or not.
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  #36  
Old November 14th, 2015, 07:43 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
He has to rescue them before that happens! However, since we're unwilling, so far at least, to put boots on the ground, Yazdis, Shia and of course Christians are beheaded and any females or subjugated to rape and slavery. We should have rescued the entire Assyrian community from Syria a year ago. Israel rescued black Jews from Ethiopia so why can't the USA bribe appropriate intermediaries and then rescue the Christians and Yazdis too.

But it has never been the policy to rescue fellow christians. I do not know why!

Asher
Asher, I would support letting some women and children Syrian refugees into America.
Don
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  #37  
Old November 14th, 2015, 08:10 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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How atrocious this world
how awful
tell me anyone if you can
what really
is-
Please I want to know-

Charlotte
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  #38  
Old November 14th, 2015, 08:25 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotte thompson View Post
How atrocious this world
how awful
tell me anyone if you can
what really
is-
Please I want to know-

Charlotte
Charlotte,

We still are fortunate that in native form, man is kind, friendly to strangers and feels for others even of a different background. It's the commonly shared, built in "triggers for empathy" that allow us to build large communities and celebrate so many life events together and even with total strangers. Human beings have, amongst their gifts, the capacity for collective association on a large scale with symbols or facial markings helping to signify members of one's group. If such a group befriends another like community, that benefit and trust is so assigned to every other person in the group. That's the good side.

The bad side is that when one community raids another, even neighbors of the aggressors may fbe labelled by the victims as "bad" company and so, from that time forward avoided like the plague. Tribalism grows like this. On the whole it works, but every once in a while, new ideas get lodged in the minds of new leaders and a community can be turned on its head. There can be many innocent victims. There is often a recognizable external pressure for change, such as poor harvest or lack of prey to hunt or vanishing water supply. Humans are then programmed to compete so that best ideas, hopefully will allow the strongest and most adaptable folk to survive.

Today however, given the industrialization of killing mechanisms, these changes in society can lead to enormous loss of life and disacement of millions of people. Then, where they arrive, they are both a valued asset and a potential destabilizing threat.

Ultimately, it's all to the good and we gradually learn, by trial and error, to be a little more civilized and that is the challenge today. At least we start off as good children with no hate in our hearts at al. It's our job to see that the children of today are no longer corrupted. I, for one, am optimistic we can do it.

Asher
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  #39  
Old November 15th, 2015, 02:31 AM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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The attacks are horrible and my thoughts are with the victims and their families.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Therefore, the real question is: "how do you convince a Frenchman to wear a belt laden with dynamite, take an AK-47 in his hands and let him loose in a football stadium or concert hall?". There is a specific way to do that and it involves taking from that person all hopes for a decent life and, at the same time, convincing him that a decent life is something only the 1% can afford. That is the crux of the problem.
Something to ponder on and largely overlooked by many people including most media outlets.

Best regards,
Michael
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  #40  
Old November 15th, 2015, 06:59 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Hopefully these attacks will at least wakeup our world leaders to come up with a effective strategic plan to deal with the conflicts in Syria, the problem of ISIS, home grown terrorism,and the millions of fleeing refugees from such places as Syria. They could start by providing the basics of food and water and medical supplies and hopefully something that is more constructive than what is going on now. But they currently don't have a strategic plan so they must start somewhere not now but right now.
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  #41  
Old November 15th, 2015, 08:38 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Not quite, and there is ample scientific evidence to that, but a photo forum is probably not the place to discuss it. Let just say that I find Voltaire more suitable than Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
Jerome,

Being French you have a deep understanding of these great men. I look at it all from my close experience as a physician with the multiple ethnic groups in the UK, close observation of Yoruba, Ibo and Fulani people in Nigeria, Mashona in Sindebele in Zimbabwe, Xhosa and Zulus in South Africa, Mexicans and other South Americans, Native Americans and more. In common children and adults share the same welcoming view and even substantial trust of strangers unless taught otherwise by direct experience or effective indoctrination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
As to the rest: you are discussing ISIS, an interesting state-like creation between Syria, Irak and Turkey. You should not. To my knowing, all the people involved in these attack where French and lived in France. True: they were influenced by a fanatic nebula somewhat related to ISIS. But they are French.
As part of a 10 member family of pious Jews raised in an Antisemetic neighberhood in London, I have first hand experience of the type of feeling of isolation and exclusion that racism can have on an entire ethnic community. I went to school under police guard. My young brother struggled home, dazed, with much of the bare white bone of his jaw exposed, dripping blood all around it, after one such attack. Then we had the connection and publications of Zionism which inspired and connected us to a dream of a better life. Much of my family left the prejudice behind by moving to Israel. I came to the USA. As a consequence, my children and grandchildren have had no experience of disrespect towards them for being Jewish. So I appreciate the pressures on Muslims marginalized in Paris communities, feeling isolated and wretchedly excluded from the better life. They are my child hood and youth I left behind in Europe!

So I understand what it must be to live in zones in Paris that even police resist entering where the constitution of France is not cherished and videos of fanatic preachers are circulated. In that atmosphere, it's quite natural for French youth from such "mini-Caliphates" to be inspired by ISIS. the rest is a natural consequence. A few of the most hurt, angry and ambitious decide to pin their future on the glorious rebirth of Islam as a power to be respected............and importantly, feared with dread and constant apprehension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Therefore, the real question is: "how do you convince a Frenchman to wear a belt laden with dynamite, take an AK-47 in his hands and let him loose in a football stadium or concert hall?". There is a specific way to do that and it involves taking from that person all hopes for a decent life and, at the same time, convincing him that a decent life is something only the 1% can afford. That is the crux of the problem.
No big issue as Islam has, (built in), the twin respected and glorious forces of Martyrdom and expansion by the terror of the choice of conversion or death that erupted from a much more docile and tolerant Islam we have known in recent centuries. But how come this change? The electronic media has allowed oratory to beam from a once isolated village. Previously that message was just heard locally. Now it is immediately available, worldwide and certain preachers are followed like the Western youths follow rock stars and famous sports figures or movie stars? Now this continuous flow of "call to arms" shames the youth who stand by and watch Islam being humiliated by "infidels". There's no barrier to their call to spread like wildfire and ignite passions in French, Belge and British immigrant communities. So what's happening shoukd be no surprise!

..........and this is not just an Islamic characteristic. The dreaded Crusades were also considered a religious duty and fulfillment of dreams by the Knights. However the Jews and Muslims in their path were raped, pillaged and massacred and Arab trading vessels in the Meditteranean were constantly raided by what were essentially Crusador "pirate ships" based in the castle at the Christian stronghold port at Bodrum in Southern Turkey. That was the Hospitalier Castle of the English King, Richard, "The Lionheart", of Robin Hood fame!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Interested readers may want to draw parallels with their own countries.
Yes, I have done it above!
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  #42  
Old November 15th, 2015, 09:51 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
War against terrorists is hard, but war against a fielded army is pretty straightforward. ISIS has command and control, vehicles and headquarters as well as convoys and masses or groups of fighters occupying villages or cities where the locals are willing to point them out to a rescuing expeditionary force.

As long as the receiving Western army manage to find zero terrorist prisoners alive to round up, they can defeat the enemy! There'll be none to return to Europe! OTOH, in previous years, trying to identify Shiite terrorists in their own villages was near impossible. The same with identifying Hamas fighters in Gaza "Mau Mau" in Kenya over 50 years ago!



But in the case of ISIS, they mostly occupy land that they are not
native to and they have treated the locals with contempt and terror.


ISIS has terrorized populations it took over and so they will be pointed out to any invading army who comes with strength , food, rebuilding and enough funds to get their lives back!

An air campaign cannot do that as ISIS fighters can retreat and then return. In a military sanitation of the area, the occupying terrorists would be shot as they resisted the oncoming forces and that solves the problem. This would be a shoot to kill campaign or it would have no practical advantage. Chasing them elsewhere serves no purposes and in fact worsens the situation. Essentially anyone trained for terrorist activity has to be segregated and those that fight killed.

Totally doable! Remember, in the Desert storm campaign and in the Israeli-Egyptian Sinai war, defeated armies were simply allowed to escape. However, against an ideologically committed force, if they are engaged, the only reasonable outcome is their liquidation as such folk on not likely to be rehabilitated by any known persuasive argument.

There's no possible approach to stopping a determined, idealogcally-bound, fanatic and well-financed insurgency except by boots on the ground. wishing to be reasonable and restrained simply kicks the can down the road. I do not expect Canada to take any lead in such a war unless a flock of squealing pigs flies over my building at the same time!

There's another approach and that is simply conceding territory to them, paying them homage and recognizing their government. It's called appeasement, but in a practical sense, if ISIS would accept it, it is likely to be a temporary tactical decision and not a strategic policy change in their quest for hegemony.

Asher
Act but not overreact! Invading again with boots on the ground is just plain insanity at this point. So maybe the can does need to be kicked down the road a little further.
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  #43  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:10 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
Act but not overreact! Invading again with boots on the ground is just plain insanity at this point. So maybe the can does need to be kicked down the road a little further.
O.K., then, so you kick the can down the road, but who will rescue the Yazdis, Christians and Shia in their path. Seems pretty immoral just to take their oil and sell them all weapons and watch!

So kick the can down the road, but what can we do at home then? Here are my thoughts for immediate action:

The Europeans must examine their relationships with Muslim communities that are in their midst, but really in separate unconnected foreign worlds. They must somehow make bridges and elevate the level of self respect and build a loyalty and brotherhood to European society. Muslims can and must be integrated and Have a society that finds faith and solution, as pious Believers in the Koran too. Just that the employment and future opportunity MUST be much greater than their affinity to the DVDs and sermons coming from Radical fire breathing orators who offer self respect and glory as a warrior.

We in the USA spend more money on prisons for Blacks and Hispanics and poor whites than we do in integrating them into mainstream prosperous society. I imagine that there are social forces that parallel their experience with that of Muslims in isolated, almost self-governing areas of Paris. We pay a huge price for ignoring a large number of unemployed folk with little hope for the future, be it in a world of street gangs in the USA or Jihadi recruiters in Paris, Brussels or London.

Given that I believe that, as children, all these folk are good with warmth to the outside world and wonder about the future, we have to discern how to give their families a path to fulfillment, opportunity and prosperity within our own successful societies.

At present, these disadvantaged folk just do not even exist in our usual thoughts, unless there is a race riot in the USA every 25-40 years or an eruption of bloody carnage in Paris, Brussels, Madrid or London. After that we clean up and ignore the poor folk as usual .......... Only to be utterly shocked and surprised when another day of murderous rage scares us to the marrow!

We are so foolish!

Asher
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  #44  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:21 AM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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A good read!


http://www.salon.com/2015/11/14/our_..._at_ourselves/
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  #45  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:26 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Being French you have a deep understanding of these great men. I look at it all from my close experience as a physician with the multiple ethnic groups in the UK, close observation of Yoruba, Ibo and Fulani people in Nigeria, Mashona in Sindebele in Zimbabwe, Xhosa and Zulus in South Africa, Mexicans and other South Americans, Native Americans and more. In common children and adults share the same welcoming view and even substantial trust of strangers unless taught otherwise by direct experience or effective indoctrination.
I don't doubt that this was your personal experience. On one hand, you should of course consider that, in ethnology, the observer influences the facts: probably the same people would not act quite in the same manner with someone with the social status of a physician and with someone from the tribe next door. On the other hand, and even if I appear almost nihilist at times, I have faith in humanity and I know that the majority of humans and especially children have a welcoming view of strangers and are generally hospitable.


Quote:
As part of a 10 member family of pious Jews raised in an Antisemetic neighberhood in London, I have first hand experience of the type of feeling of isolation and exclusion that racism can have on an entire ethnic community. I went to school under police guard. My young brother struggled home, dazed, with much of the bare white bone of his jaw exposed, dripping blood all around it, after one such attack. Then we had the connection and publications of Zionism which inspired and connected us to a dream of a better life. Much of my family left the prejudice behind by moving to Israel. I came to the USA. As a consequence, my children and grandchildren have had no experience of disrespect towards them for being Jewish. So I appreciate the pressures on Muslims marginalized in Paris communities, feeling isolated and wretchedly excluded from the better life. They are my child hood and youth I left behind in Europe!
I understood that part of your youth from other posts in this forum. I really feel sorry that you had to live under those conditions.


Quote:
So I understand what it must be to live in zones in Paris that even police resist entering where the constitution of France is not cherished and videos of fanatic preachers are circulated.
I think that the situation is noticeably different to what you lived in London. The north African minorities in France appear to have a completely different organisation than the Jewish minorities had in London. For the external observer that I am, the Jewish minorities of your time seem more similar to the Asian groups living today in France. These live in groups who try to blend in, respect the law, raise their children to be successful at school and basically do not cause any other trouble than being clustered at some places.


Quote:
In that atmosphere, it's quite natural for French youth from such "mini-Caliphates" to be inspired by ISIS. the rest is a natural consequence. A few of the most hurt, angry and ambitious decide to pin their future on the glorious rebirth of Islam as a power to be respected............and importantly, feared with dread and constant apprehension.
First: ISIS or, more specifically, violent Salafism, does not come from within France. It is a religious-political creation with a mission to destabilise the West. This was completely absent in your youth: you did not have a religious-political organisation with a mission to create a greater Jerusalem in London.

Second: only a small number of people fall for the calls of ISIS. They are not necessarily very religious nor do they appear, on average, to have suffered trauma or repression. My feeling, from what is published on the subject, is rather that they come from a background of petty crime but did not manage to make it big. Don't forget that North Africa is the main source of marijuana for Europe and the youth of these zones have right under their eyes the examples of others who drive the latest BMW.


Quote:
..........and this is not just an Islamic characteristic. The dreaded Crusades were also considered a religious duty and fulfillment of dreams by the Knights.
Certainly, but Europe has managed to do much worse in more recent times. Thirty Years' War managed to reduce the European population by about 50%, not even Rwanda or the Khmer Rouge managed as much.
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  #46  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:31 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
O.K., then, so you kick the can down the road, but who will rescue the Yazdis, Christians and Shia in their path. Seems pretty immoral just to take their oil and sell them all weapons and watch!

So kick the can down the road, but what can we do at home then? Here are my thoughts for immediate action:

The Europeans must examine their relationships with Muslim communities that are in their midst, but really in separate unconnected foreign worlds. They must somehow make bridges and elevate the level of self respect and build a loyalty and brotherhood to European society. Muslims can and must be integrated and Have a society that finds faith and solution, as pious Believers in the Koran too. Just that the employment and future opportunity MUST be much greater than their affinity to the DVDs and sermons coming from Radical fire breathing orators who offer self respect and glory as a warrior.

We in the USA spend more money on prisons for Blacks and Hispanics and poor whites than we do in integrating them into mainstream prosperous society. I imagine that there are social forces that parallel their experience with that of Muslims in isolated, almost self-governing areas of Paris. We pay a huge price for ignoring a large number of unemployed folk with little hope for the future, be it in a world of street gangs in the USA or Jihadi recruiters in Paris, Brussels or London.

Given that I believe that, as children, all these folk are good with warmth to the outside world and wonder about the future, we have to discern how to give their families a path to fulfillment, opportunity and prosperity within our own successful societies.

At present, these disadvantaged folk just do not even exist in our usual thoughts, unless there is a race riot in the USA every 25-40 years or an eruption of bloody carnage in Paris, Brussels, Madrid or London. After that we clean up and ignore the poor folk as usual .......... Only to be utterly shocked and surprised when another day of murderous rage scares us to the marrow!

We are so foolish!

Asher
In the meantime there are many thing we could be doing!

https://www.mercycorps.org.uk/articl...t-syria-crisis
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  #47  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:38 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Thank you
Nicolas,

You have the right spirit!

Baby Bush announced a "Crusade" against the terrorists, LOL! He had no idea what "Crusade" meant as he is not too educated in history........... or much else, for that matter!

Religion does not have to be the enemy. Our real enemy is our foolishness for ignoring festering problems and allowing wonderfully open and hopeful children to grow up marginalized and in despair.

Wine .......I will raise another glass of Wine to Paris, the origin of my own emancipation and the people of France! Cherish everyone today. We have no idea about tomorrow, but especially guide and welcome the children!

Asher
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  #48  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:40 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
The Europeans must examine their relationships with Muslim communities that are in their midst, but really in separate unconnected foreign worlds. They must somehow make bridges and elevate the level of self respect and build a loyalty and brotherhood to European society.
Asher, it is obvious to me that you have no idea about the real situation in France. You are trying to extrapolate from your experience as a child and from your knowledge of some US minorities, but the situation is completely different.

It is so different that I would not know where to start and explain it. Maybe with this: the immigration problem from north Africa has a symmetric problem about which nobody ever talks about: emmigration in north Africa. A large proportion of the people who live in France come back to their villages in north Africa regularly. They still have ties with their original villages. But the people who stayed put them under a very high stress: they are expected to be rich, live as princes and bring back numerous presents. You don't have that for the US minorities.
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  #49  
Old November 15th, 2015, 10:52 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Asher, it is obvious to me that you have no idea about the real situation in France. You are trying to extrapolate from your experience as a child and from your knowledge of some US minorities, but the situation is completely different.

It is so different that I would not know where to start and explain it. Maybe with this: the immigration problem from north Africa has a symmetric problem about which nobody ever talks about: emmigration in north Africa. A large proportion of the people who live in France come back to their villages in north Africa regularly. They still have ties with their original villages. But the people who stayed put them under a very high stress: they are expected to be rich, live as princes and bring back numerous presents. You don't have that for the US minorities.
Yes, indeed, Jerome! I have a lot more to learn of the complexities of immigrant life in Paris. The part that I do know well is unsettling. Do you have a reading reference, especially in English that covers the subject with understanding for the movements and dynamics within the Parisian Muslim communities. I imagine that ale Monde must have major articles on this.

Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; November 15th, 2015 at 06:40 PM.
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  #50  
Old November 15th, 2015, 11:35 AM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charlotte thompson View Post
Indeed a good read - thanks for posting.

The history of middle east has a long list of conflicts, often with involvement (open or covert) of other countries and is full of interesting persons and turning points.

Many people in western countries - unfortunately - do not have an attention span that covers the last century, nor the interest to learn what happened in the middle east during the last century in the middle east.
Many people there remember more easily as they have to live with the consequences.

I hope we all will learn from history instead of repeating it...

Best regards,
Michael
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  #51  
Old November 15th, 2015, 01:34 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Yes, indeed, Jerome! I have a lot more to learn of the complexities of immigrant life in Paris. The part that I do know well is unsettling. Do you have a reading reference, especially in English that covers the subject with understanding for the movements and dynamics within the Parisean Muslim communities. I imagine that le Monde must have major articles on this.
Unfortunately, I am not aware of any available study on the matter. I am afraid these communities are largely understudied. Are you aware of references about the communities of your youth?
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  #52  
Old November 15th, 2015, 01:41 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
The history of middle east has a long list of conflicts, often with involvement (open or covert) of other countries and is full of interesting persons and turning points.
As to interesting persons, do not forget this one (article omits the most troubling parts of this man's life). The modern middle east was created by the breakout of the Ottoman empire and the colonial powers of the time laid the groundworks for what is now hitting them back.

But the price of oil is at its lowest even if we are slowly running out of the stuff.
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  #53  
Old November 15th, 2015, 02:22 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Unfortunately, I am not aware of any available study on the matter. I am afraid these communities are largely understudied. Are you aware of references about the communities of your youth?

To get the general mood, this was 1947 and I was 6 years old, going to school by police escort. This continued for a number of years but then it was always there, mm below the surface. At 15-18 years old, I still had to map my routes and look out for the guys who would attack us. Our home was attacked on a number of occasions and blocks of turf where thrown at my mother when she answered the front door. So I have empathy for the little Catholic girls going under police escort to school though a vicious and mean gauntlet of swearing Ulster "Orange" women activists in Northern Island and the Muslims isolated by their own and the communities fault in Paris.

Some of the kindertransport kids rescued from Nazi Germany lived round the corner from me on Willesden Lane.

I will try to find more related to the rest of us!

Asher
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  #54  
Old November 15th, 2015, 02:39 PM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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Michael
Yes it was so very informative! I am glad you took the time to read this information. It helps one U.S. citizen to a much better understanding if at all is possible.

Charlotte-
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Old November 15th, 2015, 08:10 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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I must admit I have learned more about the immigrant communities in Paris from the Mahgreb, (West of Egypt) including the plains and the Atlas mountains and French territories in Africa. Some are not poor or worried about unemployment. I am trying to broaden my understanding of the Parisian Immigrant Community from north Africa and West Africa, especially. here are my new findings.





In Europe, for the past 20 years, a highly successful Islamic outreach was directed
to immigrants from Islamic communities. Huge numbers were at risk at risk of getting
lost in the new undisciplined cultures of their host country. The outreach awakened an
identity with Islam that in some was stronger than attachment to their adopted country.
In Paris too, the Mahgreb and French West African immigrants, young folk especially,
identified with Islamic, not secular values. The Koran was central. This would
be a positive influence, providing social values and moral guidance in their lives.


Some become truly devout, some just learned the culture and others may merely keep a Koran in their backpack, without understanding its contents.

Besides all the good results, lobbyists for political factions and recruiters from Jihadist groups now had a prepared population hungry for connection. So, yes, poverty and unemployment might help radicalize some, but not be needed for others who have jobs or who don't need them having other sources of income. So I may have over-emphasized the role of unemployment in the drift some have had to extremism.


Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; November 16th, 2015 at 03:55 AM.
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  #56  
Old November 16th, 2015, 08:56 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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No matter how we view the perpetrators, the source of the basic tenets of modern civilization, Paris, France 🇫🇷 Is under attack! The ideas, intents, oratory, blood lost and heroism gave us, "Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite" and thus "The Rights of Man" in a Republic, free of the dictatorship of princes and religion, but delivering freedom of, to and against worship, as we ourselves choose.

There is much pain today and no doubt more to come. However France 🇫🇷 is resilient and strong. The community of Parisiens has now grown to cover the globe.

We salute Paris and France and mourn the victims. Right now we must pray for the skills of the doctors and nurses and the healing power built into our bodies and souls that they will recover fully.

I spoke to my Muslim friend in Pakistan and he said "Daish is not us!" We must remember that distinction. I spoke to my friend in Bulgaria, she was crying all day for the horror brought to the center of wisdom, logic and humanity, the streets of Paris!

Asher
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  #57  
Old November 16th, 2015, 09:38 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
No matter how we view the perpetrators, the source of the basic tenets of modern civilization, Paris, France ���� Is under attack! The ideas, intents, oratory, blood lost and heroism gave us, "Liberte, Egalite and Fraternite" and thus "The Rights of Man" in a Republic, free of the dictatorship of princes and religion, but delivering freedom of, to and against worship, as we ourselves choose.

There is much pain today and no doubt more to come. However France ���� is resilient and strong. The community of Parisiens has now grown to cover the globe.

We salute Paris and France and mourn the victims. Right now we must pray for the skills of the doctors and nurses and the healing power built into our bodies and souls that they will recover fully.

I spoke to my Muslim friend in Pakistan and he said "Daish is not us!" We must remember that distinction. I spoke to my friend in Bulgaria, she was crying all day for the horror brought to the center of wisdom, logic and humanity, the streets of Paris!

Asher
"ISIS may be a perversion of Islam, but Islamic it is" Is it important for me to acknowledge this distinction? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things, is it important for me and others to know this? Would it be dangerous to just ignore this or is it just a futile debate?
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Old November 16th, 2015, 01:04 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
"ISIS may be a perversion of Islam, but Islamic it is" Is it important for me to acknowledge this distinction? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things, is it important for me and others to know this? Would it be dangerous to just ignore this or is it just a futile debate?
James,

There is no such debate possible, if we start with respect individual freedoms as a given.

That attack on France was an attack on principles of freedom of to and from religion. So not differentiating between murderous sects and the vast majority of believers would fundamentally erode out own hard won principles of freedom of thought.

Asher
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  #59  
Old November 16th, 2015, 01:06 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lemon View Post
"ISIS may be a perversion of Islam, but Islamic it is" Is it important for me to acknowledge this distinction? Does it matter in the overall scheme of things, is it important for me and others to know this? Would it be dangerous to just ignore this or is it just a futile debate?
James,

There is no such debate possible, if we start with respect individual freedoms as a given.

That attack on 🇫🇷 was an attack on principles of freedom of, to and from religion. So not differentiating between murderous sects and the vast majority of believers would fundamentally erode out own hard-won principles of freedom of thought that we hold sacred for our civilization.

Asher
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  #60  
Old November 16th, 2015, 01:08 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Oh, it is very important to realize the Islamic State is Islamic. This is a good article.
Don

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/
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