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  #1  
Old February 22nd, 2011, 12:01 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Default Prime and auxiliary lenses

Some of you might have noticed that I do not use the adjective "prime" to mean "lenses of nominally-fixed focal length".

That's because of the different meaning the term had when I first encountered it - still a legitimate meaning (but not the one we commonly see here).

When I first encountered the term (probably in the 1950s) it was used - mostly in the field of professional cinematography - to mean the "main" objective lens on a camera, as distinguished from "auxiliary" lenses that might be fitted to it, such as:

• Closeup lenses
• Focal length converters (both inboard and outboard)
• (After the onset of "widescreen" formats) Squeeze (anamorphic*) auxiliary lenses.
*Originally called "anamorphoscopic"
The term carried no connotation of nominally-fixed focal length, and of course at that time, there was not any common use of zoom lenses anyway.

When zoom lenses emerged, they were of course considered a new type of prime lens, and were typically found in a new subsection of the "prime lens" sections of the catalogs of cinematographic lens makers.

Then, while I wasn't looking (evidently between my first and second childhoods, or perhaps more precisely during the period of gradual transition from one to another), somebody hijacked the term to mean lenses of nominally-fixed focal length.

Well that sort of thing happens a lot. I remember when "ho" was part of a hyphenated utterance usually attributed to Santa Claus.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #2  
Old February 22nd, 2011, 01:13 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Some of you might have noticed that I do not use the adjective "prime" to mean "lenses of nominally-fixed focal length".

That's because of the different meaning the term had when I first encountered it - still a legitimate meaning (but not the one we commonly see here).

When I first encountered the term (probably in the 1950s) it was used - mostly in the field of professional cinematography - to mean the "main" objective lens on a camera, as distinguished from "auxiliary" lenses that might be fitted to it, such as:

• Closeup lenses
• Focal length converters (both inboard and outboard)
• (After the onset of "widescreen" formats) Squeeze (anamorphic*) auxiliary lenses.
*Originally called "anamorphoscopic"
The term carried no connotation of nominally-fixed focal length, and of course at that time, there was not any common use of zoom lenses anyway.

When zoom lenses emerged, they were of course considered a new type of prime lens, and were typically found in a new subsection of the "prime lens" sections of the catalogs of cinematographic lens makers.

Then, while I wasn't looking (evidently between my first and second childhoods, or perhaps more precisely during the period of gradual transition from one to another), somebody hijacked the term to mean lenses of nominally-fixed focal length.

Well that sort of thing happens a lot. I remember when "ho" was part of a hyphenated utterance usually attributed to Santa Claus.

Best regards,

Doug
Likewise, in nursery school, we had a maypole with ribbons, all the colors of the rainbow. What fun dancing around. We thought we were gay! Who knew?

Never again will teachers tell such tots, "Dance for joy. Be fee and gay!"

Asher
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  #3  
Old February 23rd, 2011, 03:38 PM
Bob Latham Bob Latham is offline
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The french have kept it a little more traditional by using simply "fixe" and "zoom".....you'd clearly be at home here Doug.

The above statement does raise a question though. Typically, l'Académie Française will invent a word that ensures "english" words are not generally used....so why hasn't "zoom" been francais'd?

The other stumbling block is that Extenders/Teleconverters are termed "doubleurs"....even if they're 1.4x ....(although it is good to see that there's a rising tide of linguistic renegades who seem to prefer the term "multiplicateur")
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 03:46 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Hi, Bob,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Latham View Post
The french have kept it a little more traditional by using simply "fixe" and "zoom".....you'd clearly be at home here Doug.
Vraiement!

Quote:
The above statement does raise a question though. Typically, l'Académie Française will invent a word that ensures "english" words are not generally used....so why hasn't "zoom" been francais'd?
A good question!

Quote:
The other stumbling block is that Extenders/Teleconverters are termed "doubleurs"....even if they're 1.4x ....(although it is good to see that there's a rising tide of linguistic renegades who seem to prefer the term "multiplicateur")
Very interesting - I hadn't known that.

C'est une langue difficile (c'est-a-dire, l'anglais!).

Thanks for the insights.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 03:55 PM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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It has been translated: Objectif a focale variable (what? nobody uses that?) we also use "transtandard", when it come to talk about above and below the 50mm (42mm?)...
Thanks for thinking it's difficult, it raises our naturally low self esteem... :)
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 05:13 PM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandrine Bascouert View Post
It has been translated: Objectif a focale variable (what? nobody uses that?) we also use "transtandard", when it come to talk about above and below the 50mm (42mm?)...
Thanks for thinking it's difficult, it raises our naturally low self esteem... :)
LOL, low self exteem ..., touché Sandrine (I love a sensible amount of introspection, self parody even). When I worked from Paris (I had an appartement in Saint Mandé) parttime, I indeed came across the legal obligations to avoid English words for which a French alternative was available. Logiciel, clavier, ordinateur, base de données, département de gestion, soon became part of "le langage courant". Even when an English alternative wasn't available, it was painstakingly avoided to make it sound like an Anglicism, and at the time I worked for an American multinational company ...

I've always wondered, what if an internationally accepted common word doesn't exist in the native language, what to do? Well, apparently it's better to describe it than to borrow/adapt.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #7  
Old February 24th, 2011, 12:51 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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Honestly, in the ordinary language of common people. We don't give a damn of what the academy would say.

Yes I think we say : base de donnés instead of database, but that's all. Yes, it's a zoom. Yes it's a LCD, it's HDD (sometimes Disque dur), even if "les Griffin" broadcast on TV, we watch "family guy", and a "flash", chewing gum, packaging. etc...
In rollerblading, some do "backflip" and "soul". And If I'm encoding a movie for my Archos, I'm concerned about my "bitrate". Maybe it's just the young people or maybe restricted to the computer "lingo" (my mother is above 60, retired and she doesn't say "la toile" for Internet)
But we do say "wagon" for "train coaches".

Sometimes we all feel like Jean-Claude Vandamme (who is not French) :) :) :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbwqAC_g3Tw

God heavens! we're not like the Argies used to be, translating everything. You'll have to buy a record of "la virgem de plata" at the record store (in case you were a hard rock fan of course). And the Quebec people are over-concerned about the way we slaughter the French language, which is meant to stay the same since the invention of the steam powered boat:
Denis_Papin

I admire the ability of English language to reinvent itself without being odd. any word could become a verb, anybody can understand then what you mean to say even if it's a brand new concept.
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Old February 24th, 2011, 12:56 AM
Bob Latham Bob Latham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandrine Bascouert View Post
It has been translated: Objectif a focale variable (what? nobody uses that?) we also use "transtandard", when it come to talk about above and below the 50mm (42mm?)...
Thanks for thinking it's difficult, it raises our naturally low self esteem... :)
Sandrine,

I diligently read a french photography forum in an effort to improve my meagre knowledge of your mother tongue and, alas, "Objectif a focale variable" has yet to appear on my screen...do your countrymen all use primes (sorry Doug, that's fixes to you) in an organised 'snub' to the old boys in Paris.

"Low self esteem"....national humility is a more palatable description but I believe that national arrogance is never more than one generation distant.

Bob
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Old February 24th, 2011, 01:24 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Latham View Post
Sandrine,

I diligently read a french photography forum in an effort to improve my meagre knowledge of your mother tongue and, alas, "Objectif a focale variable" has yet to appear on my screen...do your countrymen all use primes (sorry Doug, that's fixes to you) in an organised 'snub' to the old boys in Paris.

"Low self esteem"....national humility is a more palatable description but I believe that national arrogance is never more than one generation distant.

Bob
As I said it's the theoretical way to say, but everybody uses "zoom". People that are not involved in photography at all, sometimes uses the word zoom to depict any long, big, "professional" lens typically a white big paparazzi-like 500mm.

BTW,I have my fill of clichés where I live:

Good cooks,
elegant,
arrogant,
filthy.

So yes, I think I can have my word on what I think is true (arrogant). :)
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Old February 24th, 2011, 05:47 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Some time when I've had a few iced teas too many I'll tell you about all the strange things we had to do in ASCII to take care of Quebecois orthography, which has to be able to prove that every sign is in both English and français.

Here are three examples, in decreasing order of silliness (not really credible signs, by the way; just chosen to make the point).

Fenêtre
Window

TÉLÉPHONE
TELEPHONE

Table
Table

Best regards,

Doug
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Old February 25th, 2011, 01:40 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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Doug, I don't get your point. (silly me?)
These are perfectly France French signs... Even if ê, â, and ô aren't used that much in the younger generation and are the first ones to be omitted. It's the modern way to replace the "s" in ancient French...
Example:
Fenêtre = Fenestre (italian Finestra), we say Défenestré, for someone that falls through a window. (this s remains in some forms)
Same in Hôpital, Hôtel etc..., check! it sounds English with the S)

As for Table I can't see no difference, but you may have written an invisible ASCII character, I won't decypher your post :)

And YES the capitals (and all the higher case letters) MUST be accentuated.
Even if our school teacher used to tell us the opposite.


The only thing I see is that normally, and to be very picky, Latin words prefixes and suffixes MUSTN'T be accentuated. But things have changed:

media and not média. But everybody puts the accent nowadays.
so I'm not sure about Telephone.
The French telecom company is called France Telecom (no accent, but telecom is not French anyway :) )
http://gregorypouy.blogs.com/marketi...tlphonique.jpg

But yes, sorry about that, as long as we don't change French grammar, fenêtre will be written with the circumflex (There is a slight difference in pronunciation between with and without).
Yes I know it must be a little bit anoying...
The English language is quite straightforward in a sense, all the Latin and Eastern Europe languages and oh, wait a minute the Finnish and the Norwegian as well and the Spanish of course, they all use accents (I've been said that the Gaelic, too :) )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mallaig_sign.jpg

http://typophile.com/files/IVALO_6623.jpg

For example it amazes me how Rajan Parrikar titles his posts here for the Icelandic, might be a pain in the.... (except if he has an Icelandic keyboard, of course)

The fact is that since these things are invented by English speaking people, the other language will probably have some problem to point that theses slight differences that seems so invisible are actually REAL differences...


Just to finish...
By no way I meant the old war against old world and new world. It's just that I know by experience, that some people (Doug may be the least concerned :) ) are not aware of these particularities, because in this world where everybody is entitled to speak English, it's so easy to forget for the native speakers that for us it's a second language (and sometimes a 3rd, a 4th). And what it seems anecdotal is in fact essential for the understanding of the language.

In the case of the 3 words pointed by Doug, of course it doesn't affect this understanding to omit the accents. But it may be the case with other words.
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Old February 25th, 2011, 03:10 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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By the way, back to our prime concerns...
I just got that from the legend René Bouillot... (Glossary)
The terms here are the ones actually employed in real life..
PDF
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Old February 25th, 2011, 07:29 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Hi, Sandrine,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandrine Bascouert View Post
Doug, I don't get your point. (silly me?)
I should have explained better, or else just not gone as far as I did!

There are actually several points.

Quote:
These are perfectly France French signs... Even if ê, â, and ô aren't used that much in the younger generation and are the first ones to be omitted. It's the modern way to replace the "s" in ancient French...
Example:
Fenêtre = Fenestre (italian Finestra), we say Défenestré, for someone that falls through a window. (this s remains in some forms)
Same in Hôpital, Hôtel etc..., check! it sounds English with the S)
Indeed.

One point is that it is sort of silly to require the sign on a telephone booth to say:

TÉLÉPHONE
TELEPHONE

just to demonstrate that it is indeed both in français and English. Either would certainly be recognized by whataver-phones.

Quote:
As for Table I can't see no difference, but you may have written an invisible ASCII character, I won't decypher your post :)
Indeed, the example was just as it seemed; there it is especially silly that such is required (both the French and English words must be used).

Quote:
And YES the capitals (and all the higher case letters) MUST be accentuated.
Even if our school teacher used to tell us the opposite.
Yes, and I am familiar with the edict of l'Academie français in that regard:
On ne peut que déplorer que l’usage des accents sur les majuscules soit flottant. On observe dans les textes manuscrits une tendance certaine à l’omission des accents. En typographie, parfois, certains suppriment tous les accents sur les capitales sous prétexte de modernisme, en fait pour réduire les frais de composition.

Il convient cependant d’observer qu’en français, l’accent a pleine valeur orthographique. Son absence ralentit la lecture, fait hésiter sur la prononciation, et peut même induire en erreur. Il en va de même pour le tréma et la cédille.

On veille donc, en bonne typographie, à utiliser systématiquement les capitales accentuées, y compris la préposition À, comme le font bien sûr tous les dictionnaires, à commencer par le Dictionnaire de l’Académie française, ou les grammaires, comme Le Bon Usage de Grevisse, mais aussi l’Imprimerie nationale, la Bibliothèque de la Pléiade, etc. Quant aux textes manuscrits ou dactylographiés, il est évident que leurs auteurs, dans un souci de clarté et de correction, auraient tout intérêt à suivre également cette règle.
But this is where the underlying issue (which I neglected to mention) came in.

Because, notwithstanding l'Academie, it is in fact common, as I understand it, in French typography to omit the accents on capital letters (although not so often for É, where its impact is so profound). Thus, in the development of ASCII, when some very primitive provisions for accented letters were being considered (and they could only be primitive in a 7-bit character set), I suggested we only accommodate lower-case letters. But my colleague from Quebec pointed out the ironclad rules applicable there to signage and the like.

Thus we essentially gave up the primitive provisions for accented letters altogether (it later falling such things as supersets of ASCII to accommodate same).

So that's what I get for half-telling a story.

Quote:
But yes, sorry about that, as long as we don't change French grammar, fenêtre will be written with the circumflex (There is a slight difference in pronunciation between with and without).
Indeed.
Quote:
Yes I know it must be a little bit anoying...
Not at all.

Quote:
For example it amazes me how Rajan Parrikar titles his posts here for the Icelandic, might be a pain in the.... (except if he has an Icelandic keyboard, of course)
Indeed, very admirable.

Thanks for coming out to play.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old February 26th, 2011, 03:14 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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As for the Quebec: I think it's the common Paranoid thing to retain their own particularities, if we consider them surrounded by so-called enemies... Even on the road signs in France, the higher case letters are not always accentuated. And we've been said, as kid, that the capitals were not to be accentuated. You will also find the useless battle in France between the old school lads that uses « and » instead of " and ", for the sake of the last to be English. (They would probably see no problem at all using it if it was Moldavian). As the French keyboard with a good ol' winword comes with an ", direct from the keyboard, nobody cares, really. Sometimes the French can also be sensible, down-to-earth, no-nonsense people :)

Sorry for the inaccuracy, I can't find no equivalent in English between our "Capitale" and "Majuscule" so I called them both higher case but I should have called them upper case...

...Now, that's enough... :) :D
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Old February 26th, 2011, 06:56 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Hi, Sandrine,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandrine Bascouert View Post
As for the Quebec: I think it's the common Paranoid thing to retain their own particularities, if we consider them surrounded by so-called enemies... Even on the road signs in France, the higher case letters are not always accentuated.
In Quebec, the STOP signs read "ARRÊT" or "ARRÊTEZ" (the authorities having been unable to determine whether "stop" is a noun or a transitive verb) rather than the internationally-recognized "STOP". (In Russia, "СТОП" ["STOP"]).

Quote:
And we've been said, as kid, that the capitals were not to be accentuated. You will also find the useless battle in France between the old school lads that uses « and » instead of " and ", for the sake of the last to be English. (They would probably see no problem at all using it if it was Moldavian). As the French keyboard with a good ol' winword comes with an ", direct from the keyboard, nobody cares, really. Sometimes the French can also be sensible, down-to-earth, no-nonsense people :)

Sorry for the inaccuracy, I can't find no equivalent in English between our "Capitale" and "Majuscule" so I called them both higher case but I should have called them upper case...
Here, "capital" and "upper-case" are used (but they do not necessarily correspond separately to capitale and majuscule). For the other (miniscule), "small letters" (!) and "lower-case" are used.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old February 26th, 2011, 07:16 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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Just for the last post here about typography:

Capitale is any the upper case letter (capitale : At the head - of the typo case), you can find small "capitale" like here and the big ones as well...

I'M CONSERVATIVE, BUT I'M NOT A NUT ABOUT IT.

Majuscule is the first letter at the beginning of a word or sentence, like here.

I do not like broccoli. And I haven't liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli.



A majuscule is a capitale, but not necessarily the other way round. All of them are upper case.

in a French keyboard, the "shift" key is called MAJ for majuscule.
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Old February 26th, 2011, 08:55 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Hi, Sandrine,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandrine Bascouert View Post
Just for the last post here about typography:

Capitale is any the upper case letter (capitale : At the head - of the typo case), you can find small "capitale" like here and the big ones as well...

I'M CONSERVATIVE, BUT I'M NOT A NUT ABOUT IT.

Majuscule is the first letter at the beginning of a word or sentence, like here.

I do not like broccoli. And I haven't liked it since I was a little kid and my mother made me eat it. And I'm President of the United States and I'm not going to eat any more broccoli.
Interesting.

In "American French" (that is, as I was taught it, and also as reflected in Cassel's, 1962 edition), majuscule just means upper-case, and is independent of the usage in a word or sentence.

In American typographic terminology (as I think in French), "upper case" means "H" (vs. "h"), and is independent of the usage in a word or sentence.

Quote:
A majuscule is a capitale, but not necessarily the other way round. All of them are upper case.
Yes, I've seen various discussions of that whole matter.

Quote:
in a French keyboard, the "shift" key is called MAJ for majuscule.
Yes - it produces the upper-case letter, no matter where in the word or sentence it falls.

It also generally produces the alternate symbol for non-alphabetic keys.

Then of course there is the matter of the verr maj key (which has meant two different things, one of which is caps lock - invented by moi).

Much fun.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old February 26th, 2011, 10:45 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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Hi Mr CapsLock :)

For the diffrence between MAJ and CAPS this is just a terminology, There is no physical difference between them

The pilar, the milestone, the altar is here
http://www.amazon.fr/Lexique-r%C3%A8.../dp/2743304820


I would like to find the equivalent in English, for I don't really know how to compose accurately.


PS: Do you think it's an interesting thread (apart for the two of us? :) )
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Old February 27th, 2011, 11:09 AM
Bob Latham Bob Latham is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandrine Bascouert View Post

PS: Do you think it's an interesting thread (apart for the two of us? :) )
I'm watching intently, please continue.

Bob
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Old February 27th, 2011, 11:45 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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Bob, do you have any idea about such a book?
There's no question you stay there doin' nothing... :)
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Old February 28th, 2011, 01:30 AM
Bob Latham Bob Latham is offline
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I would dearly love to be at the level where such a tome would be the next stage of my developement. Sadly, I'm many moons away from this standard and can only claim 'progress' (albeit slowly).
Aside from the usual dictionaries and social guides, I'm slowly replacing "Dragonflies of Europe" with "Libellules D'Europe" and "Crickets" with "Sauterelles" etc.
"Une Femme D'honneur" has replaced "Midsommer Murders" on the weekly watch list although "Inspecteur Barnaby" is somewhat entertaining if only for the failures in "lip-sync".

But who was I shouting for during Saturday's rugby match?.....some things will take just a little longer I guess :)

Bob
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Old February 28th, 2011, 02:43 AM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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1st point: Rugby match: Don't ever talk again about that....

I'm very surprised that no-one seems really interested in Rugby around where I live. I would have feel honored to be invited to watch it, even to moan or keep quiet, depending on the fitness of the English fans, it's nonetheless safer than the same event in Football.. I'd better go to a pub, but I'm not a Pub person.
BTW: I think people would think you're nuts if you shout for France. (you were on the right side anyway)


2nd point: French lipsincing

How the hell could you lipsinc such an accent (sorry Mark)? I remember laughing the first time I saw Barnaby on British TV. It's so ....ummm different. That's one of the great thing about Great Britain. I mean everybody got the right to live. If someone such as Cherryl Cole would have existed in France, there's no way she could have make a success, nowadays at least (we had some southern singers in the past and they didn't have to fake). Everybody's on TV got a Parisian accent, or tries his best to have one. (mine is deeply southwestern one, I could comment a Rugby match without being odd).

For the lipsincing, the worst attempt I saw is "Hallo Hallo" in French, ridiculous....


3rd point : For the book: I was thinking about a book in English, about typography and composing, the kind of book you got when you do layout or writing as a living, or if you are a translator.


Manual

I know this one (in French) but it's not really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something with the "rules".
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  #23  
Old February 28th, 2011, 12:43 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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I do not know the right book for your third point, but, maybe this is a good starting point for a search. The people who created LaTeX know a great deal about typesetting and typography. For a typographical walk on the wild side, I suggest to have a look into the work of Neville Brody.

Best regards,
Michael
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Old February 28th, 2011, 02:11 PM
Sandrine Bascouert Sandrine Bascouert is offline
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I'll try that, cheers!
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