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  #1  
Old August 17th, 2017, 08:25 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Default B&H Strong armed to pay $3.2 million to workers who were "discriminated against"!

In Defense of B&H

$3.3 million is colossal, but is it justified?

Do we check on the warehouse promotion practices of other major internet superstores? Do we really check the promotion or workplace practices of manufacturors in Asia? Not really!

B&H is perhaps the most reliable and helpful major camera retailer in the USA. I have purchased from them for years. I have extensive experience with their treatment of customers when things go wrong as they rarely do. They have always behaved in a responsive and courteous manner. B&H provides the lowest prices to photographers and needs to handle a massive inventory. If they tend to hire Hispanics preferentially for starter jobs, that is very smart. In my experience, as new Americans, this group works harder, has a great spirit, are family orientated, honest and reliable. It makes sense to help them with a work entry job and the company "esprit de corps" benefits and the workers now have a great job on their resume that arms them for getting an even better job.

Another company might want Asians for some characteristic that they seem to be enriched for. The employer should have that right. If I was hiring nurses I would want folk from the Caribbean Islands. They are the kindest. It is nonsense to dismiss instinct one has as a buisinessman!

The most significant fact is that B&H gives folk a chance at entering the workplace with a solid job. So they don't give an easy chance to advance. Why do they have to. To me this limitation should be specified on hiring: this is a fixed position and for as long as you can do the job and we need you, you have a job!

If I hire a maid, I have no duty to promote her to be my executive assistant.

This lawsuit seems to me to be overblown and hardly justified. B&H is not the armed services. This is a private company and bullying them is misguided! They should get an award for providing so many jobs!

Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; August 18th, 2017 at 12:52 PM.
  #2  
Old August 18th, 2017, 06:08 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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The laws against discrimination also concern positive discrimination... Besides, the story is not only about discrimination but includes "The Labor Department's lawsuit also claimed that B&H Foto subjected its hired workers to harassment on a routine basis, and that it gave them 'unequal access to restroom facilities."

Furthermore, I notice that $3.2 million is a lot of money. I had not realised that B&H was such a large company.
  #3  
Old August 18th, 2017, 08:59 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The laws against discrimination also concern positive discrimination... Besides, the story is not only about discrimination but includes "The Labor Department's lawsuit also claimed that B&H Foto subjected its hired workers to harassment on a routine basis, and that it gave them 'unequal access to restroom facilities."

Furthermore, I notice that $3.2 million is a lot of money. I had not realised that B&H was such a large company.


Jerome,

Imagine the Amish hiring Hispanics or Native Americans to work in their furniture factories and businesses. They wouldn't necessarily mix with the workers they gave jobs to. They might also think how noble they are giving work to others. It is simply cultural!

The B&H folk are really a religious sect and their job is to support their own stringent way of life and their own customs. They lack the insight of "moral wrong" in having their recruited Jewish workers, as managers, (likely connected by "arranged marriages", from using the workers toilets.

This by the way is, BTW, in the USA businesses. Every place I have worked with my steel sculpture fabrication, management class has separate toilets and lunchroom from the "floor workers". Again, management is often recruited from family and friends! Here the management class is mostly white Protestant and the "workers", Hispanic-catholic!

So, from an agnostic "God's view", (or our PC Federal Government), this is unacceptable discrimination and morally unjustified. So, the massively successful B&H will have to get with it and fast!

Asher
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  #4  
Old August 18th, 2017, 11:30 AM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Asher,

it could be helpful for your understanding to read the original release of the US Labor Department and then rethink and correct what you wrote above. The rest-rooms thing was a minor issue compared to the rest.

Best regards,
Michael
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  #5  
Old August 18th, 2017, 12:26 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
Asher,

it could be helpful for your understanding to read the original release of the US Labor Department and then rethink and correct what you wrote above. The rest-rooms thing was a minor issue compared to the rest.

Best regards,
Michael
Michael,

Yes, the behaviors are broader and don't fit in with what we expect. I agree with you that this is unacceptable, but it is really practically the norm. Discrimination against different races or women in hiring is "reasonable" from the point of view of the employers.

In the first place, Hispanics are preferred as they are uniquely super reliable, work hard, are imaginitive and have good family values. They don't commonly express hostile attitudes to their supervisors. However, Blacks have a history of knowing and expecting their hard-won civil rights. They want and expect to be respected as part of the deal and are, on the ehole, not as compliant. Just a factof the work place.

Here in California in steel works, either they employ only Hispanics, (plus a few White exconvicts, "to give them a new start in life, (at lower wages)), or they mostly hire Blacks! That's the "happenings" that I obbserve in the, albeit limited, sample of work places, I visit. Same with roofs, the workers are hispanic. Hiring an Asian would mean getting ideas and opinions that one might not want. The employer just wants the job done.

Now the reported and offensive rudeness is likely the result of lack of education of a section of the supervisory level at B&H. Although many go to Yeshiva University and are highly ediucated, a significant faction grows up with only the equivalent of reading and studying the Koran every day, keeping strict dietary laws, the sanctity of the Sabbath and praying 3 times a day. Excpet all this is centered around the Torah, Mishna, (oral law) and Gemorah, (more advanced oral law collection of discussions debates and proofs).

At least a few of the young men in supervisory positions
  • have zero experience of mixing with women,
  • do not play sports,
  • are not schooled in history or sociology
that could give them a broader perspective.

These "semi bosses" are essentiually village folk from 17th Century Poland transplanted to the USA and in their own teflon coated universe of religious imperatives:
  • The timetable for the next prayers
  • Charity to orphanages, hospitals and schools
  • Time for daily study of religious texts
  • Visiting the sick
  • Ensuring kosher food is strictly in accordance with their rigid interpetation of Jewish dietary laws.
(When I was in Zimbabwe, (then the British Crown Colony of Rhodesia), if a white could count to 20, he could superviize approximately that number of Native African workers, digging ditches or fixing oads or fences. If one could kick all the tires of one's car and know they were not short of air, then a white doctor got his driver's license. That's true! At a cocktail party, with native Africans serving delicacies form silver plates, whites would say to each other that one couldnt actually have blacks in ones house, even if educated as the place would smell. They were blind to the fact that there were already blacks in their life, raising their children and serving their food!, That's how we whites have deluded ourselves into thinking how more "civilized we are).

Back here in the USA, the court rulings will force them move into the 20th Century, albeit fighting and kicking. As to insults, yes that's possible as they are New Yorkers and they are known for being very rude!

However, being "New York rude" or dismissive in Yiddish, (which the workers get to understand), brings resentment and they may as well hire blacks who already know how to stand up for themsleves and the employers wont so foolishly assume that they can be disrespectful and get away with it.

Asians? These folk are, like Jews themselves, far too educated to accept dead end "entry jobs". I dont blame them. But not hiuring women is quite "reasonable" for obsessional conservative isolated religious men, who are convinced and fear that women are not only a temptation but also at unkown times, (related to their periods) are "unclean". Anyway, hiring mostly men, reduced the risk of incidents of sexual harassment.

You may be taken aback by my generilizations of the character and social properties of racial or ethnic group, but this is not a scientific precess. Just the intuition anf "judgment" of folk who want to run their businesses smoothly with the least disruptions.

The B&H staff will get the retraining they sorely need and eventually they will behave. A fine of $3.2 million, (although IMHO excessive), is quite persuasive. The courts were smart to insist on outside consultants to force the retraining of attitudes and practices.

However, I myself would wnat to imploy Hispanic males as it makes business sense, as much as buying well made goods from China at half the price of those from elsewhere. In the machine-repairing industry, Chinese parts are sought after, as they are far less expensive and then remachined to US standards. Isn't that like hiring the folk with the attitudes and complaince and work ethic that best fits one's needs?

Meanwhile, companies that are NOT Federal Suppliers, like all the steel fabricatioes I work with and the roofers, can continue their de facto discrimination, unabated.

Still, B&H is otherwise one of the most honest, ethical and wonderful companies in the USA.....just partly locked in the 17th Century, as if it was some Catholic monastery with monks working and praying all day to celebrate God's wonders without the distraction of women or the opinions of free thinkers!

Asher
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  #6  
Old August 18th, 2017, 01:01 PM
Michael Nagel Michael Nagel is offline
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Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Still, B&H is one of the most honest, ethical and wonderful companies in the USA.....just partly locked in the 17th Century, as if it was some Catholic monastery with monks working and praying all day to celebrate God's wonders without the distraction of women or the opinions of free thinkers!
So you are OK with (citation from the previously linked text, emphasis added by me):
  • B&H promoted and compensated its Hispanic workers at a significantly lower rate than comparable white workers, leading to lower pay, fewer opportunities to advance and a near-total exclusion of Hispanic workers from higher level clerical, managerial and supervisory positions. Hispanic employees were also subjected to racist remarks, degrading comments and harassment at the worksite.

What about reading what's written without adding folklore? What you describe might be an explanation but not an excuse as you seem to color it!

I frankly don't care whatever the reason might be as it cannot diminish the result.

Best regards,
Michael
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If you need many words to describe what your picture means, it doesn't speak enough for itself.
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  #7  
Old August 18th, 2017, 01:32 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Nagel View Post
Asher,



So you are OK with (citation from the previously linked text, emphasis added by me):
  • B&H promoted and compensated its Hispanic workers at a significantly lower rate than comparable white workers, leading to lower pay, fewer opportunities to advance and a near-total exclusion of Hispanic workers from higher level clerical, managerial and supervisory positions. Hispanic employees were also subjected to racist remarks, degrading comments and harassment at the worksite.

What about reading what's written without adding folklore? What you describe might be an explanation but not an excuse as you seem to color it!

I frankly don't care whatever the reason might be as it cannot diminish the result.

Best regards,
Michael
Michael,

You are right in calling me to task where I skip over important details. I stand corrected.

Still, I am not defending what B&H did wrong. That is fact. I am just observing the sociology behind it as it accounts in part for the behavior. I would be interested in learning the actual numbers of white workers, who were not Jewish and had some connection to the family, who got paid more than the Hispanic workers doing the same job.

Family businesses are run this way, whether it is Ford, Cadburies or DuPont. Jews, BTW are very rare in the utility companies, the automotive industry and DuPont. We are a segregated society that has a long way to go.

Birmingham England is far more integrated and with it!

Asher
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  #8  
Old August 18th, 2017, 06:39 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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It is quite simple, really. People often believe that some subset of humanity has special abilities (like the hispanics having "familly values" - your words), which is actually racist in itself. Then, they want to use that particular abilities but keep the gravy to themselves and the members of their particular clan.

The USA as well as many countries found the practice to be inherently wrong and edicted laws against it. In the case of B&H, the laws were applied.
  #9  
Old August 18th, 2017, 08:52 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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My thoughts exactly, racist comments for sure. I would also add that one person making $21.00 per hour is better for an economy than three people each making $7.00 per hour. But the world is full of pimps and skin peddlers who use cheap labour.
  #10  
Old August 18th, 2017, 11:53 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
It is quite simple, really. People often believe that some subset of humanity has special abilities (like the hispanics having "familly values" - your words), which is actually racist in itself. Then, they want to use that particular abilities but keep the gravy to themselves and the members of their particular clan.

The USA as well as many countries found the practice to be inherently wrong and edicted laws against it. In the case of B&H, the laws were applied.
Jerome,


If saying Hispanics have family values is racist, then I must be racis!.

I stand by my love of Hispanics and I do this the more loudly because our President insults them at every turn and the folk he empowers think they are better than them. Not true. These are very special people. Folk do have characteristics that are especially noticeable, beyond the fact the most people of all origins are good and kind.

My experience with fabrication houses and factories, (limited to those working in metals, glass and powder coating), is that Hispanics are perhaps the most reliable workforce here. Now, of course one has to then follow that statement with questions about evidence of any exploitation. Is there adequate health coverage and do they have a pension plan? Are they given the overtime they earned? Are they sent home when the work is slow without any minimal sustainance wage?

But right of the bat, it is a fact that Hispanics are unusually friendly, helpful and yes, they have family values. The men do not spend their pay check on booze, but go home to their family every day. (Is that racist too? Doubtless it is, but I am hardly qualified in PC codes of language.

Other folk in California, might work for a week, and having enough money, not turn up again, especially if the surf is up or the snow pack is great.

For white Americans, those from the East coast have apparantly somewhat less tendency to "not come in" when the weather is perfect. I have one friend, running a large software company, who will not hire any person who was brought up West of the Mississippi. They are spoiled with the skiing and surfing and apparently tend to be more unrelaible showing up to work.

So, I am still racist I guess!

I am also a white patriot, I support the USA constitution (and the Napolionic idea of the universal rights of man and a person of worth, no matter the background), plus I am patriotic and white!

But I have no time for flags!

Asher
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  #11  
Old August 19th, 2017, 09:15 AM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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Why is this breaking news... because it fits in with your latest meme?
  #12  
Old August 19th, 2017, 09:31 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
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Why is this breaking news... because it fits in with your latest meme?
I shouldn't answer your bait, but the truth is that worldwide there is a rise in right wing xenophobia and left wing political correctness, two sides of a coin.

Not my memes but current and perhaps the most important for us to grasp.

PC memes are a modern fad and punishing drag, but xenophobia is actually an existential threat!

Asher
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  #13  
Old August 19th, 2017, 07:18 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
If saying Hispanics have family values is racist, then I must be racist!
It is a question of definition. You seem to believe that "racist" defines somebody that would assign negative qualities to a "race". The definition is learned is that racism corresponds to believing that "races" are linked to specific qualities or behaviors, etc... negative or positive. For example: saying that jews are really good with money is racist. The saying was used in Europe about 70 years ago to frighten the rest of the population.

And, in truth, there are most probably some hispanic people with very poor family values, like everywhere else. Maybe less than for other cultures, but that is a different thing: culture versus race.
  #14  
Old August 19th, 2017, 09:52 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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I went to a play last night. It was a one person monologue from a young man who had investigated stories of the Stolen Generation in Australia.

He talked about skin colour and culture but never mentioned race. He spoke of his difficulty in coming to terms with his identified 'colour' which was little different to mine. He spoke of the expectations of 'white's' and other communities for him to be different to the rest. He was typecast in movies so specifically that he began to wonder what he was.

Asher, your expectations of 'race' or 'culture'are ill informed, damaging and unnecessary.
If that is racism, so be it. You may not be aware of the damage it causes but it does. You opinions count with some. They take heed. Making a decision on perception of a group is not helpful to you or the group.

In a place where one culture is predominant or dominant, other cultures will be scrutinized for all sorts of reasons. Suspicion is natural but also harmful.
It is quite possible that any individual from any culture or community could serve your needs as a maid. The very fact that you can afford one or feel the need for one places you in a commanding position to make a decision on who that will be. If you make your decision based on misconceptions and generalisations you are at the least biassed, at the most bigotted.

But only from the observer's position can this be seen. Logic is a peculiar thing. Your logic provides a satisfactory answer to you. My logic tells me you are very selective in your choices, as might B&H and that choice is detrimental to the understanding of any individual's potential as an eployee.

xx
  #15  
Old August 20th, 2017, 12:16 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
It is a question of definition. You seem to believe that "racist" defines somebody that would assign negative qualities to a "race". The definition is learned is that racism corresponds to believing that "races" are linked to specific qualities or behaviors, etc... negative or positive. For example: saying that jews are really good with money is racist. The saying was used in Europe about 70 years ago to frighten the rest of the population.

And, in truth, there are most probably some hispanic people with very poor family values, like everywhere else. Maybe less than for other cultures, but that is a different thing: culture versus race.
All true. There are no knowb markers that would make Belgians make better lace or Scots brew finer malt whiskeys. Here one can rely on what one will get when one hires a new set of Hispanic workers. In Southern California and that is reliable high quality and pleasant workers. Could be that in 50 years time, who knows, perhaps a different group would perhaps make a better set of hires. So what we are seeing is just what happens to be true right now, for these generations. Nothing we know suggests that have some genetic advantage! Just they have eyes wide open in wonder at the improvements in education and life's chances for their children.

Asher
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  #16  
Old August 20th, 2017, 01:58 AM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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" So what we are seeing is just what happens to be true right now,"

I note, Asher, that you didn't use 'fact' in place of truth.
And you being a scientist and all.
This sort of thinking perpetuates discrimination by presenting a disadvantage to all those who don't fit within your thinking framework.

The sooner people eliminate the group mentality from their thinking the better.

Here are some possibilities for you to think on. Maybe you can tell me which ones are OK to employ people under.

Australians are a rough, uncouth lot who drink a great deal.
People from Beverley Hills are rich, privileged white Americans and are highly educated.
Indigenous Australians can't be trusted to turn up to work. They are all alcoholics with no motivation.
The Chinese students in Australia are really smart and run successful businesses.
Never trust a lawyer.
Gays make great hair dressers.
Men are better drivers than women.
Women are too weak to be on the frontline of a war.
Hispanics make great servants but not good as personal assistants.


If a thousand applicants applied for a gardening job at your house, on what criteria would you make your choice? If you make your choice based on any group concept you are biassed.

I don't really care who you or B&H employ and what their criteria are as long as they know what their biasses are and admit to them, not hide behind a pretence of being 'true' right now.
  #17  
Old August 20th, 2017, 10:16 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Tom, I talk of what happens and I am an observer, asking what to me is reasonable. I don't believe in "equal opportunity" except in having food, shelter, medicine, the right to privacy and standing before the law.

We don't demand electronics buy equally from all chip manufacturers or suppliers! We don't demand that basketball teams have a certain percent of Asian or female players. That wouldn't make sense. The management hires the talent that fits best with their perceived interests and way of working. That is capitalism, competitive with rewards to the families of the fittest, for every niche of opportunity.

I didn't say it was fair, just that it makes sense and is internally consistent with the needs of the highly competitive market.

I believe I have a right to give preference in my own home and enterprise to my own friends and family. Now when a business gets massive, society rightly steps in an assumes a right to objective fairness. I don't argue with that. I resent, however massive fines, as in this case, that expense will simply hurt everyone else!

Now back to pictures! Thread Closed! 🐝

Asher
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