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  #1  
Old January 21st, 2014, 07:21 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Default Hasselblad announces the first medium format CMOS sensor camera

Hi folks,

http://press.hasselblad.com/press-releases/2014/2014-01-21_h5d-50c.aspx

This will be a breakthrough development for the medium format camera market.

Current cameras in this specialized segment all use CCD type sensors. In practice that limits the dynamic range and High ISO capabilities of these cameras, and makes live view operation very difficult. Sensors also tend to heat up during longer exposure times. CMOS technology can solve many of those issues, although it may put some restrictions on lens shift operations.

It will be interesting to see how competition responds, Phase One have in 2013 already hinted (31 minutes into this interview) at their move to CMOS in perhaps the next couple of years. This (Photokina) year will become interesting.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #2  
Old January 21st, 2014, 08:33 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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This is indeed an interesting development. I wonder who is manufacturing these huge cmos chips (I know that Sony is the likely suspect, but we don't have official information).
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  #3  
Old January 21st, 2014, 10:22 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Interesting… I'm curious to know the size of the sensor
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  #4  
Old January 21st, 2014, 10:22 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Hi, Bart,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
CMOS technology can solve many of those issues, although it may put some restrictions on lens shift operations.
Is that because of angle-of-incidence considerations or what?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #5  
Old January 21st, 2014, 10:43 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Is that because of angle-of-incidence considerations or what?
Hi Doug,

Indeed. Each individual CMOS sensor element consists of a number of 'stacked' layers with transfer gates and transistors that can 'cast shadows'. That also gives rise to what appears to be know as a 'tunneling' effect which benefits perpendicularly incident light.

There are of course practical solutions (microlenses) but they have their acceptance angle limits, and theoretical solutions, including Back-side Illumination (BSI), but I'm not sure that is feasible for such large surfaces as required in this announcement. Etching away the backside of a silicon chip or wafer makes the individual sensor arrays very sensitive to mechanical damage.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #6  
Old January 21st, 2014, 03:11 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Default It's called H5D-50c

Hasselblad announced that the new camera will have a Cmos sensor… They claim improved high ISO and even ….multishot capability! It sounds a bit "MF heresy" to me… Who ever buys MF for high ISO? May they be targeting wedding photographers?

http://press.hasselblad.com/press-re...1_h5d-50c.aspx
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  #7  
Old January 21st, 2014, 07:26 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
Hasselblad announced that the new camera will have a Cmos sensor… They claim improved high ISO and even ….multishot capability! It sounds a bit "MF heresy" to me… Who ever buys MF for high ISO? May they be targeting wedding photographers?

http://press.hasselblad.com/press-re...1_h5d-50c.aspx
I'm very happy to see that someone considers those who are neither stationary nor work in studios most of the time! Imagine yourself at the Ponte Vecchio in Florence, Italy at the moments sun is sinking. That is over in all of 10 minutes! As the light changes, theres' so little time to get panoramic pictures and cover the high dynamic range of black waters and burning gold and pink skies. To get overlapping images one has to work fast. So the CMOS sensor is better suited for this than the CCDS. One can bracket and do full coverage. That's the advantage of CMOS. Greater range and versatility. but will they still get the same richness of colors? Well that is magic and mathematics and from my POV, tested by seeing the result.

Asher
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  #8  
Old January 21st, 2014, 08:11 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Hansen replaced by Rawcliffe!

CCD replaced by CMOS!

What a pity - I hear Hansen was very good with oblique incidence.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #9  
Old January 21st, 2014, 08:16 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Since its sensor will not be full-frame, will professionals make fun of it?

No, wait, that was the year before last.

Best regards,

Doug
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  #10  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 03:41 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Hansen replaced by Rawcliffe!
Dr Larry Hansen, is the man who oversaw the launch of the firm’s first Lunar compact system camera, developed in a tie-up with Sony. That feeds the rumor mill that the new CMOS sensor array might originate from Sony.

Quote:
CCD replaced by CMOS!
It may be some time before the CCDs are dropped. I assume they will co-exist for some time.

Quote:
What a pity - I hear Hansen was very good with oblique incidence.
LOL, but don't underestimate Rawcliffe's fill-factor!

Cheers,
Bart
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  #11  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 05:46 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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I think that the most important news here is that Hasselblad MF division is not dead. Lately, they seemed to have lost ground compared to Phase One, today they prove that they still intend to innovate in MF backs.

Another rumour: it seems that Hasselblad intends to sell a pimped up "full frame" 24x36 body from Sony in A mount as well:

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  #12  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 07:37 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
I think that the most important news here is that Hasselblad MF division is not dead. Lately, they seemed to have lost ground compared to Phase One, today they prove that they still intend to innovate in MF backs.
Indeed, it's a promising sign that some competition will exist, and innovation will be the inevitable result.

Quote:
Another rumour: it seems that Hasselblad intends to sell a pimped up "full frame" 24x36 body from Sony in A mount as well:
And since we are speculating, PhaseOne will probably also introduce a CMOS sensor version of their IQ backs, the IQ250:

http://photorumors.com/2014/01/21/phaseone-iq250-coming-soon-with-a-new-50mp-cmos-sensor/

This is going to be an interesting year, it seems.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #13  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:39 PM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
Indeed, it's a promising sign that some competition will exist, and innovation will be the inevitable result.



And since we are speculating, PhaseOne will probably also introduce a CMOS sensor version of their IQ backs, the IQ250:

http://photorumors.com/2014/01/21/phaseone-iq250-coming-soon-with-a-new-50mp-cmos-sensor/

This is going to be an interesting year, it seems.

Cheers,
Bart
Same sensor…. one made the announcement because the other made it before…
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  #14  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 12:43 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is online now
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Dear Bart,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf View Post
. . . but don't underestimate Rawcliffe's fill-factor!
I hear he's a serious (sin x)/x guy!

Its always nice to work with someone of substantial aperture.

Best regards.

Doug
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  #15  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 06:49 PM
jake klein jake klein is offline
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I thought I had read somewhere that Mamiya or Pentax were working on an actual medium format sized sensor at 6x4.5 but now I cannot seem to find it. : (
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  #16  
Old January 22nd, 2014, 08:35 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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We often hear that CCD is better than CMOS, albeit at lower ISO settings. Well, is that really true, and on what is that based. The new Phase One CMOS sensor is claimed to have 15 stops of dynamic range. Are there distinct features of CCD that make imaging at low iso superior to working with a CMOS chip, given the same expertise in engineering and programing?

Asher
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  #17  
Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:20 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
We often hear that CCD is better than CMOS, albeit at lower ISO settings. Well, is that really true, and on what is that based. The new Phase One CMOS sensor is claimed to have 15 stops of dynamic range. Are there distinct features of CCD that make imaging at low iso superior to working with a CMOS chip, given the same expertise in engineering and programing?
Not really, no. For example, Leica replaced the CCD with a CMOS in their M-series and the M9 can be had relatively cheaply second-hand. Apparently, the discerning Leica users dump their CCD based cameras for the sirens of CMOS.
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  #18  
Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:40 AM
Theodoros Fotometria Theodoros Fotometria is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Not really, no. For example, Leica replaced the CCD with a CMOS in their M-series and the M9 can be had relatively cheaply second-hand. Apparently, the discerning Leica users dump their CCD based cameras for the sirens of CMOS.
This is because many leica M users use their cameras for low light street photography Jerome, M9's sensor was a Kodak sensor oriented from cropping it out of an MFDB sensor, hence it was designed having MFDB requirements in mind.
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  #19  
Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:43 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
Not really, no. For example, Leica replaced the CCD with a CMOS in their M-series and the M9 can be had relatively cheaply second-hand. Apparently, the discerning Leica users dump their CCD based cameras for the sirens of CMOS.
Jerome,

That makes sense. I imagine that software is one of the main determinants of the final colors as the skin colors adored by Leaf aficionados, (using the same sensors as the Phase One counterparts), have their own processing software and profiles that are especially prized.

But perhaps there were sensitivity gaps in early CMOS sensors over some some significant range that was noticed by fashion photographers. Or, was this superiority, just urban legend?

Asher
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  #20  
Old January 23rd, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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The following link was given in another forum:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dos-chi...7614936120567/

The set includes a typical studio portrait taken by the following cameras (which were actual at the time):

PhaseOne645AF:P65+
Hasselblad H3DⅡ50
Hasselblad H3DⅡ39
Hasselblad H2:CF22
Canon EOS5DⅡ
Nikon D3X
Nikon D700
Nikon D90
Fuji FinePix S

I'll let you judge the colours yourself, there is no need to restart a discussion on the subject.
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  #21  
Old January 24th, 2014, 05:58 AM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Phase One strikes back with their answer, the IQ250 digital back with a 44x33 mm CMOS sensor array, with 8280x6208 pixels (51.4 MP), so it's a 5.3 micron pitch array.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #22  
Old January 24th, 2014, 10:17 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The following link was given in another forum:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dos-chi...7614936120567/

The set includes a typical studio portrait taken by the following cameras (which were actual at the time):

PhaseOne645AF:P65+
Hasselblad H3DⅡ50
Hasselblad H3DⅡ39
Hasselblad H2:CF22
Canon EOS5DⅡ
Nikon D3X
Nikon D700
Nikon D90
Fuji FinePix S

I'll let you judge the colours yourself, there is no need to restart a discussion on the subject.
Thanks, Jerome! An excellent reality check!

Well, all the cameras are superb but I did convince myself into a mood that the Haselleblad image had more dimension. Still, processing might equalize that!

Asher
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  #23  
Old January 24th, 2014, 11:16 AM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The following link was given in another forum:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dos-chi...7614936120567/

The set includes a typical studio portrait taken by the following cameras (which were actual at the time):

PhaseOne645AF:P65+
Hasselblad H3DⅡ50
Hasselblad H3DⅡ39
Hasselblad H2:CF22
Canon EOS5DⅡ
Nikon D3X
Nikon D700
Nikon D90
Fuji FinePix S

I'll let you judge the colours yourself, there is no need to restart a discussion on the subject.
Samples are a bit too small to be able to judge imho!
Also, I wonder why there is no Pentax 645D in the test???
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  #24  
Old January 24th, 2014, 11:53 AM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Samples are a bit too small to be able to judge imho!
I know the flickr interface is a disgrace, but if you click the periods on the right, you get the option to download the native resolution.


Quote:
Also, I wonder why there is no Pentax 645D in the test???
The test is not recent. I don't think the 645D was available out of Japan at the time.
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Old January 24th, 2014, 12:26 PM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodoros Fotometria View Post
Same sensor…. one made the announcement because the other made it before…
Hi Theodoros,

Indeed, the PhaseOne product will be will be shipping on Monday, January 27, 2014. Hasselblad wanted to beat Phase by announcing earlier.

Cheers,
Bart
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  #26  
Old January 24th, 2014, 12:34 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
I know the flickr interface is a disgrace, but if you click the periods on the right, you get the option to download the native resolution.
Not anymore for the High res apparently (just tried)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome Marot View Post
The test is not recent. I don't think the 645D was available out of Japan at the time.
you're right, 2009…
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  #27  
Old January 24th, 2014, 01:37 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicolas Claris View Post
Not anymore for the High res apparently (just tried)
Sure it is. Just click the periods (three large points or, in French, points de suspension...) on the right and choose "View all sizes". Did I say that the new Flickr interface is a disgrace?
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