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Image Processing and Workflow RAW, DNG , TIFF and JPG. From Capture to Ready for Publish/Display. All software and techniques used within an image workflow, (except extensive retouching and repair or DAM).

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  #1  
Old October 14th, 2015, 07:14 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Default Presentation of Photographs We have Developed: Any Place for Borders or Frames?

What I say about borders is just my preferences based on many years of looking at pictures in galleries and on the web and talking to artists who get to see, (and sometimes with horror), how their art is framed.

Mostly Avoid Messing About With Borders:

Some have developed recognizable styles and work in narrow fields of interests or with unique motifs that the use of a particular border becomes just another component of their successful product "branding"

In general most of us, can't and shouldn't do that as we often vary our subjects all over the place and have much less thematic consistency and color palettes. A border, like the smudgy black one used on B&W pics to emulate old fashioned contact prints is dated but still good looking. OK for a series of related prints in an exhibition, but otherwise best avoided. Borders that just fiddle around near the borders and don't pretend to be an actual matte or picture frame, generally draw too much attention to themselves. Not good. Worse, almost always, (but not always) if one uses bold black borders, the picture risks appearing constrained or, worse seemingly imprisoned! However, if you are sufficiently expert you might choose such a bold frame in black or any other color to creatively enhance the essence of your picture, don't hesitate. But that's a level of presentation for a mature artist and not something routine for most of our routine work. There should be some quality that the spacial bold frame resonates with that helps to bring out the feelings to be evoked by the art. It's not just like the standard carton/container one gets when shopping for groceries!

White space: We actually want a picture to rule over the surrounding white space, like a prince in a castle had dominion over the surrounding countryside and serfs how do we do that? Just consider a gallery selling expensive pictures. They place each one on a well let white wall. !Pictures need to have white space around them and be spaced away from text and centered, unless there is something creative that you want to express by bunching them together/ Sideline on the left, like some fellow using the wall for support, does not show the art has a living independent work worth giving one's attention to.

Illumination distribution: The picture should have illumination spread out in one's composition according to the needs of the composition and subject and the rankings one gives various elements. Then, the picture, if placed in a white or charcoal or other space as needed, should work without some frame decoration.

If You have a Consistent Style and Substantial Series: Of course, if you can, approach, emulate or exceed the quality of framing and consistency seen in Antonio Correia's portraits or in Maggie Terlecki's pastel hued creative assemblies then go ahead. For myself, it's very rare that I will dare to add a border. Rather, I will invest in vignetting as we did that to good effect in the wet darkroom and naturally the picture sits well with no need for gimmicks to trap the eye!

Adding a Window Frame, Arch, Doorway or tunnel: Now if one wants to add a very useful effect, adding an image overlay of a realistic window or doorway, allows one to be looking out and adds a personal involvement of the viewer in the work and thought associated with looking at a scene and being present at the same time.

Caveat: Again, this is merely my own experience and opinion and is not some revelation from the mountain. I would love to hear differing points of view where framing is not so risky and recommended.

Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; October 15th, 2015 at 12:30 AM.
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  #2  
Old October 15th, 2015, 12:29 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Please feel free to add any ideas on preparing for showing images on the web versus getting ready to print. Do we do differently?
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  #3  
Old October 15th, 2015, 08:53 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

As you know, when I present images here, I do not use any frame, border, or visible surround.

But then. I'm a telephone engineer, not an artiste.

Of course, not all my photos are only of telephone equipment. Sometimes they are of cute girls.



Artist unknown: Manual PBX and attendant

Best regards,

Doug
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  #4  
Old October 15th, 2015, 09:03 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Kerr View Post
Hi, Asher,

As you know, when I present images here, I do not use any frame, border, or visible surround.

But then. I'm a telephone engineer, not an artiste.

Of course, not all my photos are only of telephone equipment. Sometimes they are of cute girls.



Artist unknown: Manual PBX and attendant

Best regards,

Doug

Interesting picture, I see it's "Artist Unknown" - pity! Those eyes indicate someone is thinking or listening, so very appropriate.

Look at the horizontal line of circular objects!

The other point is that the composition gets one's own eyes traveling all over the picture and back again. The vertical lines of wires on the left and the 3 parts of a rectangle by her body shape and arms, make a great combination. The white bright circle in the center clinches our attention being riveted back to your picture and away from the borders as we always go back to such a reference.

So there's very little need for any border treatment, IMHO.

Asher

BTW, it would have been nicer had the photographer included her entire left arm, otherwise it's totally exceptional!
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Old October 15th, 2015, 09:16 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Here is the original but I still don't know the name of the photographer!




............................But we have the entire arm!! I knew it. I knew it!!! Such a photographer would not chop her arm or skimp on dark space framing her left hand!

Notice most of the corners are pretty well vignetted! That's the way we frame!

Asher
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Old October 15th, 2015, 09:35 AM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hi, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Here is the original but I still don't know the name of the photographer!
Nice find!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
............................But we have the entire arm!! I knew it. I knew it!!! Such a photographer would not chop her arm or skimp on dark space framing her left hand!
Yes, that is much better. (The one I posted was cropped the way we see it wherever I got it.)

Quote:
Notice most of the corners are pretty well vignetted! That's the way we frame!
Well, I'm not sure I wouild call that "vignetted", but the whole layout is effective.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug

Last edited by Asher Kelman; October 15th, 2015 at 09:54 PM.
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  #7  
Old October 15th, 2015, 07:53 PM
James Lemon James Lemon is offline
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I agree that one could easily get into trouble without the right frame as you say Asher. I don't bother with it and I see no reason to bother with it for web presentation; it would just be more work. I am only interested in the final print and then I do give this a considerable amount of attention.
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Old October 16th, 2015, 02:37 PM
Bill McCarthy Bill McCarthy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Bill,

but like the lines of a window with 4 or 8 panes, not this which looks like nothing. But we can

Rather with a form of a window, then one is actually looking at something real and very interesting.

Asher

Asher,

Didn't have a chance to get to my files to find this image, but here is a window shot from a few years back. It was bought, framed and hangs in a kitchen eating area in a private home. I took this image with my cell phone, so it is not totally true to color etc. Also has glass over it, so it cuts the sharpness, but it reflects a bit of what you have been talking about.
Not an external device, but definitely a visual one. It was shot on a frosty morning.

Let me know what you think.


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Old October 16th, 2015, 02:45 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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I appreciate so much you following up with this picture of yours. I do like the use of the window frame here. You had many choices for a matte and you went for a modern grey. It holds you picture well. White would have worked too.

The framing of this creates another set of complexity which duplicates the framing we already see in you totally well done photograph!! I would have looked at mounting the print on board or aluminum, such a Dibond™.

Your photograph is so strong and well done, it does not need any further framing and that matte or white works perfectly.

Asher
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Old October 16th, 2015, 03:11 PM
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Thanks Asher, the truth is, I sold the print, and they had the framing done. Almost everything framed in this dining area is framed in white, and the framer helped with the Matt color.
I really like this print, don't know if they know it is the out house window from the back of my barn.

Best, Bill
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  #11  
Old October 17th, 2015, 07:27 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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One Flower and 1 bud

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Last edited by Asher Kelman; October 18th, 2015 at 02:26 PM. Reason: copied from a current thread.
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Old October 18th, 2015, 02:32 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Maggie's framing above is an exceptional brave, but entirely successful presentation of her work. Unless one is a talented graphic designer or has an advanced sense of balance and esthetics, I'd stay away from such styles. I personally am not at all sure I'd be able to pull of such a feat myself! I feel much more confidant in letting my picture stand on its own. If, however, you can provide such a marvelous presentation, go for it!

Likely as not, the picture on its own will be far more impressive. Only two serious photographers here can do this with aplomb and that's Antonio Correia and Maggie Terlecki. No doubt that there are others. But AFAIK, these are presentations meant for the web, the pictures when printed, will stand on their own, even with no frame!

Asher
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Old October 18th, 2015, 03:16 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Maggie's framing above is an exceptional brave, but entirely successful presentation of her work. Unless one is a talented graphic designer or has an advanced sense of balance and esthetics, I'd stay away from such styles. I personally am not at all sure I'd be able to pull of such a feat myself! I feel much more confidant in letting my picture stand on its own. If, however, you can provide such a marvelous presentation, go for it!

Likely as not, the picture on its own will be far more impressive. Only two serious photographers here can do this with aplomb and that's Antonio Correia and Maggie Terlecki. No doubt that there are others. But AFAIK, these are presentations meant for the web, the pictures when printed, will stand on their own, even with no frame!

Asher
Asher, obviously when I print, I never put a border. For the web, I mostly do because I may post it elsewhere than here, and sometimes backgrounds don't look good against an image, sometimes you have a white background in your image and it disappears against a white website's background. There are many reasons. I try not to make the border take away from the image. It really only is meant to isolate from the website background. (wow, how many times did I say the word background? Ouch! heh! :-D
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  #14  
Old October 19th, 2015, 03:18 AM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Spotted Gum



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Old October 19th, 2015, 09:13 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Exactly Adam!






Andy Brown: Spotted Gum


Your work is pristine and handsome with delicately layered sienna colors of flaking bark. The form is complete in itself and with no border, commands the surrounding white space admirably!

Perfect to illustrate the point!

Asher
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  #16  
Old October 19th, 2015, 01:30 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Hio, Asher,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
The form is complete in itself and with no border, commands the surrounding white space admirably!
I have my forum account set for the MC white Background style, in which the page is full white (255, 255, 255).

The background of this lovely work is almost white but not quite, as it reaches my browser (250, 249, 246). That little difference is disturbing to me.

It makes it seem as if the intent is to have the tree trunk itself "floating", but not quite.

And in any case, I find "floating" objects, in general, disturbing (although it often works for pictures of almost-naked girls).

Of course for those with other styles in effect, it won't even come close.

I know it would be hard to accommodate the potential of forum users having chosen different "styles".

If the intent here is to have the tree trunk "floating", perhaps it would be better to use a larger background size, perhaps best of color 255, 255, 255.

Best regards,

Doug
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Old October 19th, 2015, 01:38 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Doug,

I use the NC style and that works well. But you do bring up and excellent point and we should have a user alterable background color by simply clicking on a color dialog strip.

Asher
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  #18  
Old October 19th, 2015, 02:36 PM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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I also see the gum tree as having a light grey background and did not know if that was intentional or not or if Andy's monitor is too bright and he may not even realize it.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 12:49 AM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Hi Doug, hi Maggie.
Thanks for pointing it out. I was blissfully unaware that I wasn't using white and yes my screen is probably too bright.
Learning, always learning.

I won't correct and repost, it was the idea that mattered I think.

p.s You guys have eyes like hawks, it may be my colour blindness at play but I had to turn my screen brightness to "crepuscular" before I could make out the off white B.G.
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Old October 20th, 2015, 10:55 AM
Maggie Terlecki Maggie Terlecki is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
Hi Doug, hi Maggie.
Thanks for pointing it out. I was blissfully unaware that I wasn't using white and yes my screen is probably too bright.
Learning, always learning.

I won't correct and repost, it was the idea that mattered I think.

p.s You guys have eyes like hawks, it may be my colour blindness at play but I had to turn my screen brightness to "crepuscular" before I could make out the off white B.G.
Andy, since I print my own images, I have my screen calibrated so my prints turn out the same as on screen. Most lcd's are too bright and people are surprised when their prints turn out too dark.
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  #21  
Old October 20th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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For me, images presented with canvas and a thin black frame around are a must.
The way we read an image with white canvas is completely different from one without it.
When the background of the site/forum is black the last borner is useless but if it is not, it makes the image to stand on its own.
In real life it has the benefit of looking larger :) than it really is. As if we were looking at an image larger than it really is.
Images glued in Dipond or similar are very rigid and look cold. Usually they are about 2 cms away from the wall...



versus

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  #22  
Old October 20th, 2015, 02:59 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Antonio,

Your pictures work very well with the fine line border as you have designed it for your stellar work. You've attained a magical sense of balance using your thin black line. It enhances and doesn't restrict your photograph in any way. I doubt this is generally applicable to most folk who do not have the sensibility you so take for granted or for many prints. Although doubtless you could create a pattern that would work as this is something that seems native to you!

As to dibond mounting, these work for certain pictures on certain walls. Nicolas Claris has been highly successful using border less dibond backing for his spray-coating protected color photographs, especially his Bangladesh series. Presentation of a photograph is not at all simple that one can make hard and fast rules, except that, in general harsh solid frames too often detract from the picture. First we must make the picture able to survive and command attention on its own and then one choose how to show it on the web, (Maggie Tetlecki, for example uses a thin black line and a lower graphic designed lettering in perfect balance) or as a finished print, protected and mounted in some complementary way. Each circumstance is different: subject matter, the surface texture and color in print and in the room, all contribute to challenges for our presentations.

BYW, I plan to have more options for changing the bg in OPF.

Asher
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  #23  
Old October 21st, 2015, 05:16 AM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Asher, this is a fascinating discussion.
I'm keen to see an example of Nicholas' borderless images (I'm sure they're amazing).

Antonio. I'm always in awe of your capacity to take a seemingly simple subject and turn into art in the twinkling of an eye.
Your simple border works perfectly to enhance the image as you suggest.

I'm going to show another borderless image here (background at a cumulative score of 765!).

I know it's not the world's best image but it is something I'm pursuing at the moment.
This is a just a fish. To me it is the venerable Black Drummer (Girella elevata).

In terms of presentation, I'm seeing it deep etched and cut out at life size, maybe adorning a thousand fishing tragics' bar rooms or man caves.


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Old October 21st, 2015, 08:16 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
Asher, this is a fascinating discussion.
I'm keen to see an example of Nicholas' borderless images (I'm sure they're amazing).
I will point you to these shortly.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post

I'm going to show another borderless image here (background at a cumulative score of 765!).

I know it's not the world's best image but it is something I'm pursuing at the moment.
This is a just a fish. To me it is the venerable Black Drummer (Girella elevate).
"Just a fish!" you say, Andy!

Well what on earth or we, after all, just apes with "stuff"!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
In terms of presentation, I'm seeing it deep etched and cut out at life size, maybe adorning a thousand fishing tragics' bar rooms or man caves.[/Quote[



Now you're talking!





Superb skin color and texture. A substantial and impressive photograph. I'd look again at the mouth. Might do with a tad of attention there/ but that's me fussing and being the doctor looking for things that might be a sign of a disease! None here, but the lips are at least worth another glance. He forgot to put on lip gloss and that's what you need, I think, but I'm not fish makeup artist, LOL!


Asher
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Old October 21st, 2015, 09:06 AM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Andy, your fish pops out and it doesn't need any frame at all...

Is it a fish from salt water ?

:)
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Old October 21st, 2015, 01:40 PM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Thanks Asher.
Well, it looked better last night after a bottle of wine.
Today it just looks like a dead fish.
Long way to go with fish portraits I think.
One day I'll live on a tropical island (Taveuni) and have a water housing. That'll tell a different story.
Antonio, thanks also and yes it's a saltwater species. Very tasty too.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 01:56 PM
Antonio Correia Antonio Correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
... Antonio, thanks also and yes it's a saltwater species. Very tasty too.
Salt and cold waters are those where the most tasteful fish live.
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Old October 21st, 2015, 02:10 PM
Andy brown Andy brown is offline
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Antonio, there are tasty fish everywhere.
I've got a very substantial list of target species (the yummy ones).
I've caught 80 fish this year so far of nearly 20 different species, then of course there are mussels, oysters abalone and crayfish.
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  #29  
Old October 21st, 2015, 02:23 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
Thanks Asher.
Well, it looked better last night after a bottle of wine.
Today it just looks like a dead fish.
Long way to go with fish portraits I think.
One day I'll live on a tropical island (Taveuni) and have a water housing. That'll tell a different story.
Antonio, thanks also and yes it's a saltwater species. Very tasty too.

Well, Andy, I still love the fish and have taken the large liberty tweaking it a tad.




Andy Brown: Black Drummer (Girella elevate)

Edited & Reposted with Permission


Asher
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  #30  
Old October 21st, 2015, 02:46 PM
Nicolas Claris Nicolas Claris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy brown View Post
Asher, this is a fascinating discussion.
I'm keen to see an example of Nicholas' borderless images (I'm sure they're amazing).
Well, it all depends of the subject, the way the image is composed, the targeted audience and the place where it is shown!

For our exhibition "Three châteaux in Winter" I chose to have some white surrounding the image, to make it a bit more "luxurious"

More

On the contrary for my "Bangladesh!" series exhibited first in the same place as "Three châteaux in Winter", I preferred to keep more sober, humble and give the power to the image of people shown.


More

For my more contemporary images such as "Monday night" I chose to show the image intact, without any border…


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