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  #1  
Old February 6th, 2008, 09:07 AM
Georg R. Baumann Georg R. Baumann is offline
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Default Phase One and Mamiya Strategic Alliance

http://www.phaseone.com/Global/Campa...te/Mamiya.aspx
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  #2  
Old February 6th, 2008, 09:03 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Hi Georg,

These marriages are fragile. The elephant in the room is the 2008 DSLR, now cramming 21-25 MP plus a slew of high ISO and lens choice advantages that simply don't exist for MF users. In fact, how long will it be before we see a Nikon with 30MP and a 6x6 format?

With their fast development cycles, the 35mm camera MFRS can, if they wish, deliver a major heart shock to the MF world!

Asher
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  #3  
Old February 7th, 2008, 02:51 AM
Georg R. Baumann Georg R. Baumann is offline
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Hi Asher,

All this is new territory for me, but from what I understood so far, there is a massive difference in using gear that has much larger sensors with reference to the output file due to a somewhat "cleaner file" and other aspects producing a more 3D like quality on a print.
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  #4  
Old February 7th, 2008, 12:24 PM
Michael Seltzer Michael Seltzer is offline
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Indeed, such alliances can be fragile, but I think this one will last. At least, I think its fragility is the fragility of medium format, not of this alliance. Why? Because they have no one but each other. Hasselblad took away a major source of sales from Phase One when it decided to "team" with Imacon, and make only dedicated cameras and backs. With Leaf buddying up to Sinar, there really isn't any one else for Phase One to sell to (well, there's still Rollei, of course). And there's no way for Mamiya to effectively continue without a good digital back to work with its cameras. It's ZD was a good try, but it can't keep pace. I certainly hope this union lasts, and works. Phase One backs are, from what I read, as I can't afford one myself, very good digital backs. Many think they are the best. And I've always liked Mamiya. My first camera was a Mamiya Skeor 35mm.

As for competition from the DSLRs. Yep, that's the real threat--not just to this alliance, but to medium format in general. There are advantages to MF. Because the chip is physically bigger, the photosites can be bigger, and the images less noisy, cleaner. And of course the MF backs are now at 39 megapixels. Michael Reichman at the Luminous Landscape suspects there will be 60 megapixel MF backs within a year, and even larger sizes down the road. Since most people also think the 35mm DSLRs won't get much bigger than 25 megapixels (who really knows, though), 60 or more is a significant bump. They will likely always be a niche market--for the photographer who needs absolutely the highest resolution in a single shot and cost be damned (I think that's pretty close to a Reichman quote). At any rate, they may survive. After all, people still buy scanning backs.
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  #5  
Old February 7th, 2008, 12:39 PM
Ken Tanaka Ken Tanaka is offline
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"Strategic alliance" is often a biz world code phrase for "clinging desperately together". Hasselblad has decided it's going to do a closed-system thing. Sinar has just introduced the Hy6 for its cameras. Canon has just encroached into, and perhaps exceeded, the low end of the digital medium format range with the 1DsIII. This Mamiya/Phase thing actually looks more like a sales promotion than a strategic plan. But I guess time will tell.

George: Yes, your understanding is substantially accurate. Bigger sensors, larger photo sites, less noise, more detail...those are the primary attractions of MF digital. But all's not entirely rosy. The MF sensors are all cropped with respect to a mf film frame, the usable ISO ceiling is perhaps 200, the cameras and lenses are much larger than a 35mm dslr, etc. So medium format digital is a compromise that's well worth the bargain for many professionals but not necessarily for advanced amateurs.
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  #6  
Old February 7th, 2008, 12:51 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Michael,

I see no reason why we should not go to even smaller pixels on 35mm format. The diffraction issues coming with the smaller pixel pitch and use of f stops even at f8 or less can be recovered to some extent with sharpening. One can still do great photography at f1.4 to f 5.6!!!

So I don't see why we'll not see wonderful 35mm cameras reaching 30-40MP! Also once Canon goes to 3-layer RGB pixels with some pixels for luminance, the cameras will be marvelous.

Phase one selling with Rollei is only for older models as the new Hy6 Rollei Version is the same company (just branding as Rollei for the Far East). Now maybe Phase One can also join the Hy6 alliance. That would make sense or else make a deal with Pentax. Who knows what they already had designed that didn't get put out.

For sure, any relationships that you imagine can be and probably are being considered. I'd not rule out any capable camera MFR from looking to make a deal with Phase one. No company! The MFRS are realists and know that they have to adapt and make alliances that would have been an anathema 5 years ago.

I'd not exclude Nikon, Pentax, Olympus or anyone else.

One could argue that Nikon has enough to do with it's full frame 35mm camera and Pentax and Olympus are busy enough with their offerings. However, the psychological effects of leaping over Canon would be stunning.

Asher
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  #7  
Old February 7th, 2008, 01:00 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
"Strategic alliance" is often a biz world code phrase for "clinging desperately together". .................... So medium format digital is a compromise that's well worth the bargain for many professionals but not necessarily for advanced amateurs.
Ken,

My putting aside film was a mistake. I cannot afford a new digital back at the prices demanded, so for the detail rich pics I'm going back to my Bronica 6x6 and LF 4x5 and 8x10.

For small volume this seems to be a great option.

Now when Sony gets into the market with its 25 MP full frame DSLR, the prices are going to drop. For sure and if the lenses are great, i'd consider switching! I'd expect Sony to hurt Canon and Nikon since it will have to be competitive for photographers who already have a stock of Nikon or Canon lenses. I'd imagine that the Sony would appear at $4,000 and blow away all standards!
Even at $5500 this would be market smashing!

Now where will the MF alliances be? The way to survive for them is to all open up the Hy6 to Phase One and drop the prices in half and hope they can get the volume. Leaf is only licensed, AFAIK, for the Hy6 for 1 year.

Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; February 8th, 2008 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Sony 25MP DSLR not Sinar
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  #8  
Old February 8th, 2008, 12:13 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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People who buy a 12MP SLRD could save by getting a point and shoot 12MP, how come the prosumers that we saw a few years back are loosing ground to a booming acceptance of single lens reflexes.

It could be the same with Medium Format. If you could buy a 22MP for $4k ? or even less?

Regarding a 6x6 sensor in the future. I wouldn't hold my breath while waiting for one.

The reason for a square format was to be able to use cameras with waist level finders since using a tween lens reflex in landscape mode is almost impossible.

The production costs of MF sensors are distributed among all digital back makers and to produce a larger size that will only be used by the brand that has the smallest market share is a unlikely event in economic terms -- of course, I could be wrong --.

Furthermore, in film times Mamiya almost won the format wars with the 5x7 and 6x4.5 formats against the 6x6 of Hasselblad. The reason was that most applications are not square and when you crop a 6x6 you end up with the smaller format -- which defeats the purpose --

Editorial and commercial photographers began to adopt the larger size negative with the Pentax and Mamiya 6x7 until digital came and immediately went the rectangular (645) way.
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  #9  
Old February 8th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Georg R. Baumann Georg R. Baumann is offline
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....the 645 way.... yeah

Good evening Leonardo!

Foveon was something I had high hopes for, god damn blue channel, did not work out the way I thought it might.

At the end of the day, I can hear many laughing now, but the truth is, I shoot with a 5 MP camera, and does it bother me?

Nope!

What really counts is different.

The reaction of the audience counts, at least in my book! If people love your work, this is for any reason, but not the technology behind it, it simply does not matter.

I do not care about format wars, what I care for is to create pictures that have potential to touch someones imagination and respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman
Why is it Georg that I think that hobbits inhabit your landscapes?
Imagination is the first I always hope to trigger, respect comes naturally.

If I achieved that, and I can say I did that more than once, I am happy with the shot, regardless, whether I like it or not.

I am saying this after 2 weeks of looking into technology available <talk about headaches (grins)>, and I made the choice to buy my next camera, and just forget about camera news for the next 6 month anyways. - I just don't want to know then! <grins> -

I figure, all this stuff eats up too much of my precious time, that I can utilize better, out here, shooting pictures.... <smile>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
George: Yes, your understanding is substantially accurate. Bigger sensors, larger photo sites, less noise, more detail...those are the primary attractions of MF digital. But all's not entirely rosy. The MF sensors are all cropped with respect to a mf film frame, the usable ISO ceiling is perhaps 200, the cameras and lenses are much larger than a 35mm dslr, etc. So medium format digital is a compromise that's well worth the bargain for many professionals but not necessarily for advanced amateurs.
Thanks Ken!

Last edited by Georg R. Baumann; February 8th, 2008 at 04:25 PM.
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  #10  
Old February 8th, 2008, 03:33 PM
janet Smith janet Smith is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georg Baumann View Post
If people love your work, this is for any reason, but not the technology behind it, it simply does not matter....

I figure, all this stuff eats up too much of my precious time, that I can utilize better, out here, shooting pictures.... <smile>

Georg, I couldn't agree more with both these statements, get out there and shoot!
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  #11  
Old February 8th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Georg R. Baumann Georg R. Baumann is offline
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hehehe...

....how is Kim doin?
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  #12  
Old February 8th, 2008, 04:17 PM
janet Smith janet Smith is offline
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She's much better thanks Georg, wagging her tail again...
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  #13  
Old February 8th, 2008, 04:35 PM
Georg R. Baumann Georg R. Baumann is offline
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<grins> Glad to hear that!

Say "Hi" to Paul and ... I completly forgot to ask him, does Paul shoot as well?
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  #14  
Old February 9th, 2008, 01:37 AM
janet Smith janet Smith is offline
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He tries very hard, he uses my old 20D, is in the learning process and has just recently come to understand the relationship between shutter speed and aperture.

He got one or two nice shots in Glencoe, I'll tell him you asked.....
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