Open Photography Forums  
HOME FORUMS NEWS FAQ SEARCH

Go Back   Open Photography Forums > OPF Welcome Hall > Breaking News

Breaking News Updates, innovations, equipment: moderated!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old September 9th, 2008, 02:08 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default Adobe Starts to migrate towards Web-Based Services: CS4 and Photoshop Express

Adobe will announce its new CS4 suite from San Francisco Sept 23rd in a Web Broadcast. So sign up for it on the Adobe site! To me the magnificent highlights are:

PS CS4: A few amazing features:

DNG Color Editor:Allows one to have presets for conversion to match particular color looks, (the art director, for example, likes the color look from the Phase One or Leaf display as opposed to what they are seeing on the Eizo screen). If that's what they want, the DNG can, it is claimed, manage just that! Sure!

3D: Ability to go from your side by side pictures and stitching to a 3D model that you can repair or paint and all the changes end back on the component images, if you wish!

Speed: Massive multiGB images supported with ability to instantly select and zoom in anywhere! Also, at long last, making full use of 64 bit architecture as well as of today's advanced Graphics cards. The latter is decades overdue! Aperture, from its inception, depends on the Graphic Card for a lot of crunching. Adobe calls their technology the "Pixel Bender"! With filters, the effects are lightening fast. Massive images can be rotated and twirled as if 100 KB!

The removing (or building more of) "what's-in-between" technology. Last year we heard of an Israeli company with a technology which allows designers to simply shrink a field of cows or people and the objects remain unchanged by the grass in between which is seamlessly removed. Not enough sky? just shift down thew horizon, the new sky will be generated!

Photoshopexpress.com and photoshop ExpressThis is the nose of the camel in the tent! For mass consumption, Adobe Photoshop Express is free with 5GB of storage space.

Download P.E. to your cell phone. Take a picture, press save and forget about it. Now anywhere in the world, with a computer, get on the web, access your free Adobe Photoshop access account and all you images are there. You can use the Lightroom-like interface to make B&W version, get rid of imperfections, red eye etc and if you wish put a smile on granny with a neat distortion too. Pay for the "Plus" account to get 20GB. With each level of account, one gets new templates, hints, and tutorials all free.

The idea is to get the system working with the mass dumbed-down market and then expect that all advanced Creative Suite functionality will be web-based with more advanced templates and extra services. There will also be a "Configerater" Program released shortly after CS4 to allow us to customize which of the over 850 commands PS has to be used in a particular setting. Good for team work with less experienced users, for teachers and seminars.

So this is the start of Web-based control and no doubt, web-based licensing as a way to bi-pass all the pirated copies. I'd imagine by CS5, we could need a web subscription to keep using our own software!

Anyway, we'd better get used to this, as this is the way of the future. Look at http://salesforce.com and realize that this is used for massive corporations and it's just web-based. Advantages? You buy just the seats you need and the software is always up to date!

Asher

Download the "Adobe Photoshop World Keynote '08 - Vegas" video from the Adobe website, here
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old September 9th, 2008, 08:00 AM
Ken Tanaka Ken Tanaka is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1,301
Default

We've reached a new era in software technology. A tiny handful of products, most prominently Adobe's Photoshop, have reached their functional maturity. Contrary to the breathless hyperbole uttered by the latest crop of "product managers" there's nothing to add. The product serves every conceivable need of its customers. In fact it exceeds the functional needs of 99% of its users; most of the functionality is never used by most customers.

So what's left? How can these young men maintain the 20 year tradition of annual version releases (and sales) that their fathers established?

Delivery! Yes, that's it! Let's Netify it!

No, Asher, I don't believe that this is the way of the future at all. Your Salesforce.com precedent is not at all legitimate. Unlike Salesforce, Photoshop is not an enterprise integration system that must be deliverable to companies of all sizes. It's a visual toolbox. The value proposition of Internet software hosting is simply not there, certainly not in an age of dirt-cheap desktop capacity.

But I can see some who might root Adobe on to this path, Kodak, Ilford, Fuji in particular. If Adobe becomes pig-headed about this course they will certainly create a mini-resurgence in film photography.

Just my opinion.
__________________
- Ken Tanaka -
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old September 9th, 2008, 12:28 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,103
Default

Do I need to upgrade my bw?

I agree with Ken, I do not use the power of cs3. what is liquify?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old September 9th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Rhys Sage Rhys Sage is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 194
Default

It makes a lot of sense for PCs to become dumb terminals. Even Microsoft has admitted the era of the full OS is over. Everybody is now doing what Sun did, decades ago. They don't sell or licence software - they just allow you to use it via an annual fee.

The benefits:
1. No installation issues.
2. Data security - leave it on their server or copy to your PC or both.
3. Zero piracy.
4. Very fast bug fixes.
5. Pay per use as opposed to buying the software, not liking it and being lumbered.
6. No licence keys to lose.

The downsides:
1. Need a fast internet connection (not universally available).
2. Zero privacy - anybody can look at your files if they're not hosted by you.
3. You need to keep paying in order to keep using.
4. You might have to get use licences from too many companies - probably working out more expensive in the long run.

I can see Linux really taking off now with RAW processing. That's all Linux lacks at the moment.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old September 9th, 2008, 01:03 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
We've reached a new era in software technology. A tiny handful of products, most prominently Adobe's Photoshop, have reached their functional maturity. Contrary to the breathless hyperbole uttered by the latest crop of "product managers" there's nothing to add. The product serves every conceivable need of its customers.
Ken,

Agreed about the capabilities. Little more is needed, if anything except workflow simplicity and speed. However, the emperor must to find a way to continue to get it's subjects to pay yearly tribute. I use PS 7.00 at my wife's computer, but otherwise CS2. PS 7.0 is almost perfect for me except I miss the highlight-shadow filter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
In fact it exceeds the functional needs of 99% of its users; most of the functionality is never used by most customers.
Ken,

They want to "unbundle" functionality to have packages dedicated to different vertical markets: Health care, Fashion, Education, Design and so forth. Then in each package you will need to pay extra for "extra functionality", files over 2GB, the best Pixel bender acceleration etc.

The problem with Adobe is that they had just 2 products, matured them with more functionality by going 16BIT, buying other companies and then ended up with just Elements and PS CS. Since then they have been developing different packages of CS2 and CS3 creative suites. So the web package of CS3 holds back Photoshop CS3! Imagine that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
So what's left? How can these young men maintain the 20 year tradition of annual version releases (and sales) that their fathers established?
Their vision is to grab the millions of pictures taken with cell phones, seduce people to Photoshopexpress.com for the free 5GB space and tools, sell prints and push utilities and up-migration to Elements and Photoshop packages and add ons to dominate the community and "Facebook"/on line hosting/printing market.

By starting at the bottom of a massive market for free, they see an endless item by item sales volume generated as the PS-naive and enthusiasts get pulled into the spider's web. For that, they already have the software functionality. All they are doing is rationing distribution, bypassing pirating and trying to create a universe of overlapping services for which there's a price to go from one zone to another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
Delivery! Yes, that's it! Let's Netify it!

No, Asher, I don't believe that this is the way of the future at all. Your Salesforce.com precedent is not at all legitimate. Unlike Salesforce, Photoshop is not an enterprise integration system that must be deliverable to companies of all sizes. It's a visual toolbox. The value proposition of Internet software hosting is simply not there, certainly not in an age of dirt-cheap desktop capacity.
A lot of salesforce.com's customers only have 2-3 seats, so it's not necessarily enterprise scale and that would seem to work for Adobe. Anyway, that's where they declare they're going!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post
But I can see some who might root Adobe on to this path, Kodak, Ilford, Fuji in particular. If Adobe becomes pig-headed about this course they will certainly create a mini-resurgence in film photography.

Just my opinion.
Tell me more about the reactions of these imaging stake-holders. What will Fuji, Kodak, HP and others stand to lose? Their print services? How are they impacted with Adobe's moves? How does this move us to film? Perhaps instant film?

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old September 9th, 2008, 01:11 PM
Rhys Sage Rhys Sage is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 194
Default

There might be a hidden advantage in having everything done online...

Suppose you're a busy photographer (don't we all wish). You could take all your images and upload all the RAW files via an upload utility, straight from your card via a card reader to your Adobe account while you go to get things ready for the next day, make a cup of tea etc.

Next, you could notify your cheap Indian photo processing guy and he could do all the PP for you at nominal cost to you but for loads of money for him. He would not be able to download any of the images and thus couldn't steal them. He does the PP for you. You pay him.

Then you choose your photo printing supplier and send all the images to them for printing or have your clients view them via an online viewer.

Next, you collect your money from the clients.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old September 9th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhys Sage View Post
There might be a hidden advantage in having everything done online...

Suppose you're a busy photographer (don't we all wish). You could take all your images and upload all the RAW files via an upload utility, straight from your card via a card reader to your Adobe account while you go to get things ready for the next day, make a cup of tea etc.

Next, you could notify your cheap Indian photo processing guy and he could do all the PP for you at nominal cost to you but for loads of money for him. He would not be able to download any of the images and thus couldn't steal them. He does the PP for you. You pay him.

Then you choose your photo printing supplier and send all the images to them for printing or have your clients view them via an online viewer.

Next, you collect your money from the clients.
A good point, they want to make a professional community based on Adobe products.

Asher

BTW, Rhys, let's watch out for word descriptors as in "notify your cheap Indian photo processing guy" as it might come across as insulting and even racist. The work is not "cheap", i.e. below professional-standards of work. Likely its retouching at the highest level. It may well be more economical, but cheap+Indian might be misinterpreted. No huge deal just a gentle feedback on how different cultures might read meaning that you, of course, don't intend. I myself hate being "politically correct", except where it really is to protect dignity of others.
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old September 9th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Rhys Sage Rhys Sage is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 194
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
A good point, they want to make a professional community based on Adobe products.

Asher

BTW, Rhys, let's watch out for word descriptors as in "notify your cheap Indian photo processing guy" as it might come across as insulting and even racist. The work is not "cheap", i.e. below professional-standards of work. Likely its retouching at the highest level. It may well be more economical, but cheap+Indian might be misinterpreted. No huge deal just a gentle feedback on how different cultures might read meaning that you, of course, don't intend. I myself hate being "politically correct", except where it really is to protect dignity of others.
I don't know. I don't subscribe to the view that "cheap" means bad. There's a general correlation between price and quality but it's not universal. As an example, I used to buy cheap Rocket batteries when I was in the UK. They lasted half as long as Duracell but cost a third of the price so I was ahead all the way.

Thinking "cheap" is the same as "poor quality" is a common error many people make. It's like thinking "Chinese" is "poor quality". Although I haven't come across anything from China in the dollar stores that was anything more than landfill, I don't think it's universally representative of Chinese products especially since they do manage to launch their citizens into space and retrieve them safely.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old September 9th, 2008, 03:11 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Whidbey Island, Washington State, USA
Posts: 735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Tanaka View Post

Delivery! Yes, that's it! Let's Netify it!

No, Asher, I don't believe that this is the way of the future at all. Your Salesforce.com precedent is not at all legitimate. Unlike Salesforce, Photoshop is not an enterprise integration system that must be deliverable to companies of all sizes. It's a visual toolbox. The value proposition of Internet software hosting is simply not there, certainly not in an age of dirt-cheap desktop capacity.
I agree, the last thing I want is for PS is to have both network lag and the lesser performance of JavaScript in my workflow. It may be fine for consumer products like PSE, but for PS it is way too slow. I want and need my work tools to be as fast as possible on my workstation, not accessible anywhere. This would waste my time.

As for salesforce.com, that is a completely different type of application. Moving client-server code to web is fine, but moving monolithic CPU intensive code to the web would waste my time and that is very bad business.

some thoughts,

Sean
__________________
[I]"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." [/I]- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
[URL="http://www.envisagement.com/"]http://www.envisagement.com/[/URL]
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old September 9th, 2008, 05:22 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean DeMerchant View Post
I agree, the last thing I want is for PS is to have both network lag and the lesser performance of JavaScript in my workflow. It may be fine for consumer products like PSE, but for PS it is way too slow. I want and need my work tools to be as fast as possible on my workstation, not accessible anywhere. This would waste my time.

As for salesforce.com, that is a completely different type of application. Moving client-server code to web is fine, but moving monolithic CPU intensive code to the web would waste my time and that is very bad business.

some thoughts,

Sean
Hi Sean,

Is it possible that Adobe will give us the basic engine to do the math but the filters etc would really be small apps which would unlock what we have. IOW, they are really just going round the pirates who couldn't get access to full functionality. Also with fiberoptic connection as well as a great reliance on the video card, wouldn't the process be still very fast. Adobe's job is to get more money by charging some use fees for getting done what CS5 should be able to do anyway.

They are not naive. So how could we be misinterpreting them?

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old September 10th, 2008, 01:53 AM
Murray Foote Murray Foote is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 394
Default

The thing that concerns me is that it may be like what I see as the legal blackmail of anti-virus utilities, particularly since I understand there have been cases of anti-virus personnel releasing spurious viruses to bolster demands for their products. OK, since fixes keep coming out there may be a need for an annual charge - but in my case I have Norton 360 and giving me way more functionality than I need or use becomes a cover for having to pay way more than I consider reasonable on an annua basis.

I suspect it's just a way for the dealers to take advantage of the addicts and increase their revenue flow.

Regards,
Murray
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old September 10th, 2008, 03:04 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Whidbey Island, Washington State, USA
Posts: 735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Hi Sean,

Is it possible that Adobe will give us the basic engine to do the math but the filters etc would really be small apps which would unlock what we have. IOW, they are really just going round the pirates who couldn't get access to full functionality. Also with fiberoptic connection as well as a great reliance on the video card, wouldn't the process be still very fast. Adobe's job is to get more money by charging some use fees for getting done what CS5 should be able to do anyway.

They are not naive. So how could we be misinterpreting them?
Fiber to the home is relatively rare, and the USA has rather poor broadband penetration (seriously poor for a "Superpower") so forcing online usage would be a nightmare. You could no longer use PS on a laptop out in the field as you will not have net access which would make PS useless for on location post work. Heck, PS would be next to unusable in 90% or more of the USA (lots of open space).

Adding in the fact that even a fiber based network connection is likely to be slower than a hard disk and it sounds like a lose/lose situation as using the Scratch Disk already kills performance.

That said, the online aspect is for Photoshop Express, not PS itself so this aspect is more consumer oriented than professional oriented and it may be a good move.

some thoughts,

Sean
__________________
[I]"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." [/I]- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
[URL="http://www.envisagement.com/"]http://www.envisagement.com/[/URL]
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old September 10th, 2008, 03:44 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Alamogordo, New Mexico, USA
Posts: 8,195
Default

Hi, Asher,

[QUOTE=Asher Kelman;57499]AThe removing (or building more of) "what's-in-between" technology. Last year we heard of an Israeli company with a technology which allows designers to simply shrink a field of cows or people and the objects remain unchanged by the grass in between which is seamlessly removed. Not enough sky? just shift down thew horizon, the new sky will be generated!

Of course, once we've seen the world record line and the names and flags of all the teams and so forth laid into the Olympic pool (at 29.97/30.0 fps), we should expect such things in the "easier" environment of static images!

Quote:
Anyway, we'd better get used to this, as this is the way of the future. Look at http://salesforce.com and realize that this is used for massive corporations and it's just web-based. Advantages? You buy just the seats you need and the software is always up to date!
Interesting déja vu here. In a paper I'm writing now, I reminisce about my first simulation, which was done on a GE 235 in Phoenix that I accessed from my office in Holmdel, N.J. over a page printer terminal.

Best regards,

Doug
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old September 11th, 2008, 12:12 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean DeMerchant View Post

That said, the online aspect is for Photoshop Express, not PS itself so this aspect is more consumer oriented than professional oriented and it may be a good move.
Sean,

No, this is not just PhotoshopExpress.com, a wee version of the big thing! This has been introduced by Adobe as their long term strategy for growing Adobe and CS4 and beyond! They are dead serious about a "benefit" to vertical market-specific packages and web-based extras and an entire community that has at it's hub Adobe™ tools. There's no misinterpretation of what they are trying to do!

Asher

BTW, Fiber will be in most large cities within the next several years.
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old September 11th, 2008, 02:10 AM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,557
Default

I really hope that Adobe isn't going that web-route:

- server break-downs, it might even be the not Adobe's but the web's root-server, or your online service will stop you working on a project that you should load up in the night....

- no Post when shooting at locations?

- why a bigger GPU if it will be webbased? Doesn't makes sense...

- as mentioned already, it will be way slower than a workstation with a dedicated scratch disk, heaps of RAM...

- getting in contact with Adobe support here in europe was a nightmare - I needed it once - calling not less than at three places, and still not resolved the problem. After mailing to Mr. Knoll the issue was resolved by giving me a new Adobe ID, but somehow both IDs are active.... this gives me not very much trust in a webbased PS.

Therefore, if a webbased PS becomes real, Adobe might value its interest higher than the clients needs, enough motivation for me to look more for alternatives; I'm not interested to pay a license by mouse-klicks.
__________________
http://www.proimago.net
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old September 11th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Fontana View Post
I really hope that Adobe isn't going that web-route:

- server break-downs, it might even be the not Adobe's but the web's root-server, or your online service will stop you working on a project that you should load up in the night....

- no Post when shooting at locations?
Hi Michael,

I imagine they might still give us an engine with most of the components. Then the pro-aplets/filters will be loaded from the web. One would be able to work fast since all they may be doing is actually unlocking what we have on our hard drives! One can imagine all sorts of variations from 100% independent of Adobe to 100% web-based. One might guess that at present, maybe 10- 50% of PS users might be pirated! So there must be a massive revenue loss. Add to that the fact that PS 7 or below handles most everyone's needs. They obviously feel that have to recapture lost market by piracy and also re-make the bargain for how PS users deal with Adobe. We must be made permanently locked into a suckling position of dependency.

If they can migrate to web-based access, starting with a free service, they may believe they can control their own PS intellectual property and start a new generation of kids and newbies with different expectations.

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old September 11th, 2008, 02:48 AM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,557
Default

good morning Asher

as much as I understand the anti-piracy-stuff, as a loyal client, I dont't want to be punished for it.
To me its as simple as that.

Do I punish my loyal clients - im terms of copyright - cause some others ignore it? Guess....
__________________
http://www.proimago.net
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old September 11th, 2008, 03:06 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Fontana View Post
good morning Asher

as much as I understand the anti-piracy-stuff, as a loyal client, I dont't want to be punished for it.
To me its as simple as that.

Do I punish my loyal clients - im terms of copyright - cause some others ignore it? Guess....
Hi Michael,

I am only looking at what Adobe has decided to so and inserted my own interpretation of what might constitute their motivation, reasons or excuses for doing so. They claim they are going to improve our user experience.

If that is all it is, then it must be that they believe that we will somehow
  1. Not be inconvenienced by interrupted networks or servers or that we will be accepting this as a reality like rain on a day we want to enjoy the outdoors.
  2. Value the increased compartmentalization of their offerings as a convenience

In Adobe's favor, I must say that the planned release of their Configurator will allow users to limit access on the software to only subsets of the over 850 commands. So they do believe they are giving us too much for normal use. So to that extent, at least they are apparently sincere!

However, in balance, the major benefit for them in the system they are moving towards, is 100% control of their intellectual property and setting up feeding stations with nipples we can draw their milk!
CS4 is not really impacted, so for now, there's nothing to worry about for us. Hopefully, CS4 will be available for the Mac too and it should be all we need for the next 30 years!

Meanwhile, I can imagine Nik's software and Asiva gaining new ground and then Aperture and other packages adding more capabilities to really eat into the world of PS.

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old September 11th, 2008, 12:12 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Whidbey Island, Washington State, USA
Posts: 735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
No, this is not just PhotoshopExpress.com, a wee version of the big thing! This has been introduced by Adobe as their long term strategy for growing Adobe and CS4 and beyond! They are dead serious about a "benefit" to vertical market-specific packages and web-based extras and an entire community that has at it's hub Adobe™ tools. There's no misinterpretation of what they are trying to do!
That really sucks. I am already on the Creative Suite upgrade path at $500 every 18 months. Adding another $150 to that to get the tools I need (the price will not drop) is just another way to bilk me out of money, waste my time, and give me a lower quality product. They call it choice, but in truth it is just a way to charge more for the same product while wasting development resources treating legitimate customers like criminals instead of spending development resources making their product better. They are doing this instead of making CS 4 64-bit across all platforms which means CS 4 on Macs will be an inferior product.

Adding in network problems which are major issues and do not fall into categories like rain. I can still weed the garden, drive, and walk in the rain, but a network outage putting me out of work for a day is bad. This is made worse by the fact that I have a generator and UPSes so I can work when the network is down and power is out. And if you use cable rather than DSL, you then get network outages like rain (all the time) with more catastrophic effects. Hence rain and a total loss of power will not stop me from working, but a network outage can.

Additionally, network based software entails either a performance loss or serious security risks. This can be illustrated by the DNS poisoning vulnerabilities that were recently found in the core of the internet.

Add in that the scumbag management have moved to treating legitimate customers like criminals/pirates by making legit customers jump through hoops that the pirates do not have to jump through. This is very similar to automated phone answering systems that save corporations money and time by wasting consumer's time rather than efficiently and rapidly routing calls using a human operator.

This is not progress, it is simply a sign of greed and poor morals. PS is not a client-server application, it is a workstation based CPU and memory intensive tool and adding the monstrous delays of networks to it is idiotic at best. Online tools are for online activities, my photos are copyrighted, stay on my systems, and in no way requires network connectivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
BTW, Fiber will be in most large cities within the next several years.
Which does absolutely nothing for the majority of the people in the USA. There is already no competition in broadband as the current facilities based competition is not competition and allows the duopolies (DSL versus cable) to use artificial rather than market based competition induced pricing. Until we fully get DSL into rural communities it matters little whether or not fiber exists in urban areas as roughly half of the population of the USA is rural.

These problems are not very visible in urban areas, but I live in a rural area and do not drive in bad traffic. The fact that I do not waste my time in rush hour does not mean I have extra time to waste or should be treated as a second class citizen undeserving of the same offerings as those in urban areas receive (although the water is better and the air is cleaner while staying out of rush hour reduces pollution and saves fuel).

The deployment of broadband in the USA is really poor outside major urban centers. Take a look at http://www.dslreports.com/gmaps/fios...p=&place=98249 and show me a pin in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, South Dakota, North Dakota, Arizona, or New Mexico? And that is over a third of the contiguous 48 states! I cannot get fiber and I live a mere 30 miles from Seattles urban core. And the way facilities based competition works, Comcast will not be rolling out DOCSIS 3.0 anyplace where fiber will not be rolled out as there is no competition (just a pair of monopolies using separate facilities).

Another list is: http://www.fiberexperts.com/fios-availability.html

Note that Verizon does not bother to make this stuff public as their coverage is 5th rate at best with FiOS. Heck, Verizon cannot even make their cellular networks reliable (forget the ads which if true suggest cellurlar coverage in the USA sucks) as 30 miles from Seattle (a small city) their coverage shifts from good to dismal very rapidly. And note that I am not talking about up in the mountains, but instead 30 miles from Seattle in the lowlands.

Rural areas are at least a decade behind the urban cores in broadband deployment and with fiber it will like become 2 or 3 decades due to the need to lay new cabling (fiber). The decade delay with DSL occurrs with the copper wire already layed out to homes. Heck, there are people within 10 miles of me that cannot even get telephone service or electricity. Fiber is unlikely to make it into rural areas at all due to cost and the FCC's reluctance to use bandwidth for the benefit of consumers (rather than just for greedy profit) means that whitespace devices are likely a ways out even though that would eclipse the need for fiber to the home.

Nor does fiber address the real performance issues. I have a slow DSL connection and it is faster than most servers on the web can serve up data (~128 Kib on average). It is also faster than what the internet backbone can transmit on average due to software issues in the core algorithms. The problem is more visible in the infrastructure than in the last mile at this point.

frustrated with greed,

Sean
__________________
[I]"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." [/I]- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
[URL="http://www.envisagement.com/"]http://www.envisagement.com/[/URL]
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old September 11th, 2008, 01:42 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
  1. Not be inconvenienced by interrupted networks or servers or that we will be accepting this as a reality like rain on a day we want to enjoy the outdoors.
Asher
C'mon, that's even worse than a bad joke.
It might show Adobe's absence of any idea about photographer's actual needs and requirements, a actual example:

last monday, I got a phone call at 11 am to be at least at noon at the company's place - with all the gear like studio torches, softboxes, reflectors, etc (archi modells aren't easy) - to shoot some 10 architecture modells (!!) until 4 p.m.

In the webbased PS-scenario, I would have need to look for a IT-admin first, making a top urgent call for access to the network, that only would have taken > a hour (big, wordlwide company). Talking them about Adobe's policies... go figure....

Ok, it's true (and I'm glad) that it doesn't happens every day, but it might happen.


Or then shooting und verifying architecture photography in unfinished buildings, with no network access....

---> A webbased PS is no option to me.
__________________
http://www.proimago.net
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old September 11th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,557
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
  1. Value the increased compartmentalization of their offerings as a convenience
Asher
I alwith dreamed about working with a master imaging app, that would keep the image in memory, but primarly beeing a °container° for its temporary file.

Arround that master app, some user-loadable modules would allow a fast workflow, including third party software, like other RAW converters, other imaging apps for special duties, etc.

That would be a BIG support for photographers, that only a big company, like Adobe could give!
--------

Sean, you' re lucky; here it's 320 $, for PS - not extended - only.
__________________
http://www.proimago.net
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old September 11th, 2008, 02:36 PM
Tim Dolan (Longwatcher) Tim Dolan (Longwatcher) is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Newport News, VA. USA
Posts: 139
Default

If Adobe is worried about piracy, instead of going for a permanent web apps, why not use a monthly code system.
Each month the code changes, all you computer has to do is check for updates at least once a month, when it does, the adobe site verifies your computer is registered and then sends it the new code for your computer. If there has been no update for say 30 days, then a reminder starts coming up that you need to update, only after 90 days disabling the software. If you make it so various components require the updater to be present and requesting updates from the specific sites, that should at least slow pirates down if not stop them, without seriously impacting the users.

I know I check for updates at least once a month. If the computer is so old it does not have some form of internet connection, it probably won't be running the latest versions of PS anyway.

Just a thought, because I really HATE web based apps.
__________________
Save The Model, Save The Camera, The Photographer can be repaired!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old September 11th, 2008, 04:25 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 32,744
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Dolan (Longwatcher) View Post
If Adobe is worried about piracy, instead of going for a permanent web apps, why not use a monthly code system.
Each month the code changes, all you computer has to do is check for updates at least once a month,

.....Just a thought, because I really HATE web based apps.
Tim,

One thing we must recognize is the "delusionorium", or bubble of delusion, which encloses organizations wherein the policies that they have come to for selfish or existential reasons, become expressed in terms of "public good", "increased flexibility", "faster upgrades" and so forth. The company culture then protects them from reality as the spread the new gospel with sincerity. Yes, they know what they are doing, but I think, at the same time they believe it's really for us! Yes they are hoping to expand into a huge new consumer base and gradually entice them up the product chain.

They seem to be not facing how people work! There may be things we do not know, like how aggressive they will move their model to being web-based. Your idea of a machine and time based license would be great. It should be transparent to the user. Before they go much further, they will learn from the Photoshop Express.com acceptance, Which will be high (why not it's free, LOL!) and then they need to see whether it really can fit in with a photographer's schedule.

I know that my cable went down for 3 days and then again today for 2 hours! what am I supposed to do, carry around a huge dish antenna?

I imagine that they will start to get feedback from real photographers as opposed to the Photoshop trainers who make a living selling books, tapes and workshops teaching Adobe software!

Asher
__________________
Follow us on Twitter at @opfweb

Our purpose is getting to an impressive photograph. So we encourage browsing and then feedback. Consider a link to your galleries annotated, C&C welcomed. Images posted within OPF are assumed to be for Comment & Critique, unless otherwise designated.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old September 12th, 2008, 12:11 PM
Sean DeMerchant Sean DeMerchant is offline
Inactive
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Whidbey Island, Washington State, USA
Posts: 735
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post

BTW, Fiber will be in most large cities within the next several years.
Another factor is the telecoms suing rural municipalities for trying to implement their own fiber to the home rollouts.

http://www.law.com/jsp/legaltechnolo...=1202422769174
http://www.monticellofiber.com/lawsuit.html
http://www.ilsr.org/columns/2008/073108.html

So even when a community chooses to have an open fiber network (i.e., services based competition) the greedy corporations (often based in other states) use lawsuits to stall the construction of said networks.
__________________
[I]"In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." [/I]- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)
[URL="http://www.envisagement.com/"]http://www.envisagement.com/[/URL]
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old September 13th, 2008, 04:36 PM
Bart_van_der_Wolf Bart_van_der_Wolf is offline
pro member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,046
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
I imagine that they will start to get feedback from real photographers as opposed to the Photoshop trainers who make a living selling books, tapes and workshops teaching Adobe software!
Better yet, new companies will rise to the opportunity and offer non-networked versions of image editing applications. That'll tell 'em, and up the ante at the same time. Competition rules ...

Bart
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old September 14th, 2008, 12:19 PM
Tim Dolan (Longwatcher) Tim Dolan (Longwatcher) is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Newport News, VA. USA
Posts: 139
Default

Bart I actually have the capability to maintain my web connection (at lower bandwidths) for at least 6 hours as long as the cell phone system stays up, but only if I have a cell connection that works with the network.

Laptop, UPS, and my travel battery for my strobes along with the cell card seems to do the trick - haven't tested how long it will actually last though, but know I can get 6 hours out of it, I suppose I could get some more time from plugging it into my vehicle. I got the cell card because I would be doing a lot of traveling and still needed the ability to connect to the web easily.

However, that said, it would do me no good if the power stays out longer then batteries last (although I really should invest in some solar arrays) and if the servers that work the internet or the cell service go down, life is also not good.

And for complete trivia: I have run my laptop connected to the web while in the passenger seat of a moving car - that impressed the heck out of me. I was surprised how well it worked.
__________________
Save The Model, Save The Camera, The Photographer can be repaired!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old October 1st, 2008, 08:55 PM
Nikolai Sklobovsky Nikolai Sklobovsky is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA, USA
Posts: 1,181
Default Adobe Starts to migrate towards Web-Based Services: CS4 and Photoshop Express

As of Sep 23 the cat is finally out of the bag, so I'd like to share few personal comments about Abobe PS CS4. I must preface these notes that I was only interested in primary photography related workflow, so I can't say much about other apps from the Creative Suite. I also wasn't interested in 3D or Video stuff, so nothing on this part either. :dunno
Also, I understand that many of the Bridge and, especially, ACR features could have been found in LR2.0

Below are my brief comments I made for myself
Bridge

This is the first app you'll see and, from my experience, will be spending most of your time in.
  • It's MUCH faster.
  • Can use persistent preview instead of generating thumbnails each time
  • New Review mode (Ctrl+B) simplifies the culling process A LOT with its easy-to-use minimalistic left-right-(thumb)down interface. I cannot overemphasize how much the life is easier with this - fairly simple - addition.
  • Simple "Space" stroke engages a trimmed down version of SlideShow, instantly bringing image full-screen (and back)
  • Searches and Smart collections (saved Search results) uses OS-built-in indexing services for huge performance boost
  • You can AutoStack panoramas/hdrs

Camera RAW (ACR) 5.x
  • Adjustment Brush (K) and Graduated Filter (G) allows the non-destructive local corrections of several major parameters (exposure, saturation, etc.)
    WARNING: slows down the loading...
  • Post Crop Vignetting is a true blessing
All in all in many cases I only found myself launching PS only when I needed to work with multiple layers, add text/fx and such.


Photoshop
  • Holding H (and pressing the mouse) engages a spring loaded bird view (fit all) panning mode (not in all modes)
  • Animated panning/zooming (requires hardware OpenGL support)
  • Ctrl+Space+MouseDown zooms at the cursor, Alt+Space+MouseDown zooms out
  • New frameless tabbed UI is actually pretty handy
  • New advanced histogram
  • New mask and adjustment layers palette
  • Masks can have their own opacity, feathering, edge refining, etc.
  • New Adjustment Layers:
    • Exposure
    • Vibrance
  • Hue/Saturation and Curves adjustment layers have uber-powerful "painting on screen" mode, just like B/W one.
  • New Rotate tool in the main tool bar - with direct on-screen rotation a la LR.
  • Better icons and more colors in adjustment layers
  • Ctrl+1 is now 100% view (used to be ctrl+alt+0, which still works), which is more logical for new users, considering Ctrl+0 is "fit the screen".
    All the "color channel" views shortcuts are thus shifted by 2 (Composite is Ctrl+2, Red channel is now Ctrl+3, Green Ctrl+4, Blue Ctrl+5)
  • Spring loaded keys for temporary tool usage
  • Ctrl+Alt+Shift+C for content-aware scaling (Edit menu), aka Seam Carving
  • Extensions: kuler, and such
  • Screen sharing (great for team work)
  • Much improved layer alignment and blending (including 360 panos and focus stacking)
====
That's what I noted and what I used. I'm sure I only covered the tip of the iceberg. Also, I didn't try that myself, but I know that PS CS4 has a great capability of handling super large files (over 1Gb), and is actually optimized for using 64bit OS. However, my experiments with blending a couple of dozens RAW files seemed to work much better/faster than it was to the case with CS3.

Conclusion
With numerous performance improvement across the board, OGL support, new local tools in ACR, improved and new tools in PS, this version is a much bigger step up from CS3 that the latter was to CS2.

HTH
__________________
Nikolai
Sr.Software Engineer
PhotoSoCal, Digital Grin, LA Shooters, NAPP, PPA
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:53 PM.


Posting images or text grants license to OPF, yet © of such remain with its creator. Still, all assembled discussion © 2006-2017 Asher Kelman (all rights reserved) Posts with new theme or unusual image might be moved/copied to a new thread!