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  #1  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 12:34 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Default Leica S 37MP bomb-shell! Rethink everything!

Who else has such lenses and a 37MP sensor. What does this mean for Canon's vaunted 1DsII?



"Is it Photokina time, or what? Joining the host of other camera manufacturers with sparkly fresh announcements this week is none other than Leica, which just announced a trio of new cams a few days back. This introduction, however, stands alone, and Leica's making some pretty remarkably bold statements about its new S-system. The first device to take advantage is the 37-frickin'-megapixel S2, which sits between Canon's EOS 5D and EOS 1Ds MkIII in terms of body size. The company designed the camera to provide "the quality of medium format and the handling and flexibility of 35mm," and the outfit also has nine S-system lenses on tap. As for expectations? Leica says it'll perform "twice as fast as Hasselblad H-series cameras," and if that wasn't straight-up enough, the firm's David Bell proclaimed that "[Leica] thinks it has the best professional camera system in the world with this."here.

So what do you think?

I had to post this even though I'm out sick!

Add more as you find details!

Asher
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Last edited by Asher Kelman; September 22nd, 2008 at 11:38 PM.
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  #2  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 02:27 PM
Mike Shimwell Mike Shimwell is offline
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Looks great, but it may be a little pricey.

There was a rumour some time ago about canon introducing a MF system and mor recently rumours about a Nikon digital MF rangefinder. Given the lack of even a 36 by 24mm rangefinder I dismissed the latter out of hand!

Mike
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 02:29 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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images of cam & lenses
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  #4  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 02:32 PM
Noel Greene Noel Greene is offline
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This is really stunning news. I have been waiting until end of year to purchase 1Ds III .. letting it sort out autofocus issues .. but this announcement by Leica will shake both Canon and Nikon ... It will be pricey no doubt .. but the quality will be Leica standard. This is like a bolt out of the blue and 9 new lenses as well .. cant wait to read what Sean reid has to say

regards

Noel greene
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  #5  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 02:32 PM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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more on the S2...

It looks like they went back on pro level, after nearly becoming lifestylish...

I read about 2 shiftlenses..
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  #6  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 03:30 PM
Doug Kerr Doug Kerr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Who else has such lenses and a 37MP sensor. What does this mean for Canon's vaunted 1DsII?
Wow - and its sensor is bigger than full-frame. How is this possible? Next we'll have houses bigger than the lot they're on.

Here's the RG announcement. I didn't post the link to Flickr, since flickring sometimes gives Carla vertigo.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/con...id=7-9316-9629

Best regards,

Doug
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  #7  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 06:54 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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Default MF Leica??

Maestro system by Leica is a medium format system similar to ZD --the camera that almost took Mamiya to the bottom of the ocean-- has been announced in Germany's Photokina... wow will this go after the Hy6?

We would have to see the price of the thing, and the way the "DB" inside is implemented...

It will probably put pressure on Hasselblad/Sinar/Leaf/Mamiya and PhaseOne. Somewhat pressure to Nikon/Canon.

Very exiting Photokina so far. My favorite is the new nano "DSLR" system developed by Olympus-Panasonic reminds me of Olympus Pen.
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Old September 22nd, 2008, 07:37 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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Asher, sorry I posted the same topic, did't see yours...

I was looking at the images and imagining one S2 in my hands, they say that it will have the versatility of 35mm, but it looks like a point and shoot to me, no buttons what so ever on the front or back, just the 4 "PhaseOne" to control the digital part. Don't feel envious on that aspect, also I would miss being able to mount my back on other platforms if needed.

I don't see much talk about this as a "new ZD", --but of course here the difference is that Phase One is backing Leica-- but to me it looks like a risky experiment and as a first generation system (@ 20k Eu) a risk for almost any working photographer.

The system that I fell in love is the Micro Four Thirds ...
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  #9  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 07:41 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Leonardo,

Chances are these lenses will prove to be equivalent to Schneider digitars or better. Think not of the body, but the lens and the chip. Leica announced earlier this year a permanent upgrade ability of it's M8. I believe that this new camera too will be upgradable.

Asher
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  #10  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 07:50 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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Asher: I think that it is a very interesting announcement and that the IQ will be supperb. Also it seams to be a serious effort, I was just commenting on the nothingness of the body, I haven't seen one that bare before, my D300 looks more "PRO", they should have just resurected the CONTAX 645 "mechanical interface". Just a superficial comment... : )

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Leonardo,

Chances are these lenses will prove to be equivalent to Schneider digitars or better. Think not of the body, but the lens and the chip. Leica announced earlier this year a permanent upgrade ability of it's M8. I believe that this new camera too will be upgradable.

Asher
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  #11  
Old September 22nd, 2008, 09:36 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Thumbs up Leica S Buttons

Leonardo,

I did some checking.



The new camera appears to have 2 large vertical buttons either side of the 3" high resolution LCD display. The horizontal thumb wheel on the top right hand corner, presumably cycles through these choices which are likely lit up in the viewfinder.

Asher

I'm putting together a description of the camera here
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  #12  
Old September 23rd, 2008, 07:32 PM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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this is an image of a typical 35mm camera designed for PRO use, notice the controls difference ...




Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Leonardo,

I did some checking.



The new camera appears to have 2 large vertical buttons either side of the 3" high resolution LCD display. The horizontal thumb wheel on the top right hand corner, presumably cycles through these choices which are likely lit up in the viewfinder.

Asher

I'm putting together a description of the camera here
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  #13  
Old September 24th, 2008, 12:59 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Leonardo,

Leica has a more manual slower studio and fine art constituency. The controls are very much over kill for them who are used to manual everything and using their knowledge of the Zone system of Ansel Adams. This is an expert photographer's camera, a devotée's treasured possession. These are the people who use the 1DsIII on manual.

How many focus points does the Phase One-Mamiya have?

Asher
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  #14  
Old September 24th, 2008, 01:37 AM
Ivan Garcia Ivan Garcia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Leonardo,

Leica has a more manual slower studio and fine art constituency. The controls are very much over kill for them who are used to manual everything and using their knowledge of the Zone system of Ansel Adams. This is an expert photographer's camera, a devotée's treasured possession. These are the people who use the 1DsIII on manual.

How many focus points does the Phase One-Mamiya have?

Asher
Mmmm. Interesting concept Asher.
As you can see on the Exif embedded within the image below. I am one of the few who uses their 1DsMKIII in manual.



Yet I would not dare to call myself an Expert Photographer (nor do I think any other photographer would dare either) as every day I learn something new. Having said all that, I don't think this new Leica is for me... nor were the previous leicas for that matter. That's not to say I would refuse it if it came free of charge. None the less, I do appreciate what Leica is doing here, about time they went back to what they do best, innovation through perfect engineering.
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  #15  
Old September 24th, 2008, 02:36 AM
Michael Fontana Michael Fontana is offline
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here - 1 Ds 2 - manuell all the time.

Just beeing used from the 4/5', it's more familiar to me to make a first exposure, correct after the histogramm's info (that would have been polas on film) and quite often bracket the exposure afterwards. Therefore used to handle even manuall lenses.

Do I now have to buy the S2, LOL
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  #16  
Old September 24th, 2008, 06:25 AM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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I don't want to sound argumentative, but you can always shoot manually with the Canon, but can go all auto when needed, is like Porsche's auto gear change that can be manually controlled, It gives you the best of the two worlds.

My Mamiya has only one focus point, and not as many controls as the Canon -- but more than the S2 seams to have-- but this system will come out next year, --in dog/computer years is 2015 (1year=7)-- and the format is smaller than my P25, so it should offer more AF points, don't you think?

I think that the camera of the future is going to look more like the Micro 4/3, and eliminate the R in DSLR. No mirror will give the system many advantages, among them to be able to shoot HD movies, to have sharper, smaller, cheaper lenses and -- PC Tilt/Shift gets simplified too since you can make the movements "live" and there would be a reduced space from lens to film plane.

With no mirror all lenses can be leaf shutter so that flash sync speeds can go higher.

This is what Leaf-Sinar-Rollei should have done and did not do, and now Leica is also coming with something not new at all ...

anyway that is my humble opinion ... for now
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  #17  
Old September 24th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Leonardo,

In a quick answer, your correct: a compact camera with no mirror. However photographers are fixated on the visual esthetics of the glass viewfinder. Search on ReidReviews or look at Sean Reid's articles in Luminous Landscape perhaps to get a sense of the aversion to LCD viewfinders!

Asher
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  #18  
Old September 24th, 2008, 11:22 AM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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Asher, I remember when I was a journalism student and pj for a newspaper, at the time there was a war in my native Nicaragua so I met photographers like Susan Meiselas from Magnum. At the time --early 80's-- the new thing being introduced was not even AF, but auto speed setting and electronic shutter. There was a group of photographers that did not want a camera that needed a battery to shoot. There was nothing like knowing that no matter what you could estimate the exposure and shoot. When we think about it it was probably the end of the "unplugged" mechanic-chemical era of photography.

What happened was that the wave of "shoot by wire" was too strong to be stopped, we needed AF, AE, and now electronic "film".

The mirror mechanism is nice and, as you say, "photographers are fixated on the visual esthetics of the glass viewfinder"... so where we with mechanical shutters and manual focus lenses...

This are the problems with mirror mechanisms:

* Moving parts. The less moving parts the better for manufacturing and user experience.
* Bulk. Absence of it will make cameras, and more importantly, lenses much smaller and efficient and cheaper.
* Live views and Movie modes.
* Perspective Correction live
* Easy access for sensor cleaning

Problems with electronic view finders are going to be solved --or are being solved -- by technology as in the case of the Olympus-Panasonic MICRO 4/3 that where they are using a newly developed reflective method that doesn't use filters in the liquid crystal device...

...
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  #19  
Old September 24th, 2008, 05:03 PM
Mike Louw Mike Louw is offline
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Lordy, I'd love that lot! Pity about the bit about mortgaging my house and selling my soul, though.

Mike
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  #20  
Old September 24th, 2008, 09:39 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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[QUOTE=leonardobarreto.com;58791]
Th
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
Meanwhile with the Leica S2 is the body that holds the 9 fine new lenses, most with central shutters allowing fast sync speed! Essentially, we are getting the same Kodak technology found in the latest Sinar and Phase one backs in just a form factor reduced by a mere 5mm! Essentially, we get likey the best lenses made and that's what defines the camera.

Why do you think Phase One is putting its lot with them? The lenses! I am going to see what I still have to sell. Still, I have to test the Sinar, Phase One and Leaf alternatives if I was going to hand over the cash!

It's just a matter of seeing what the pictures will appear like!

Asher
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  #21  
Old September 24th, 2008, 09:55 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leonardobarreto.com View Post
The mirror mechanism is nice and, as you say, "photographers are fixated on the visual esthetics of the glass viewfinder"... so where we with mechanical shutters and manual focus lenses...

This are the problems with mirror mechanisms:

* Moving parts. The less moving parts the better for manufacturing and user experience.
* Bulk. Absence of it will make cameras, and more importantly, lenses much smaller and efficient and cheaper.
* Live views and Movie modes.
* Perspective Correction live
* Easy access for sensor cleaning
Leonardo,

Of course we'll see a lot of Olympus/Sigma and other rangefinder camera-like products with a large sensor from a pro camera but without the mirror. Who knows, Leica might do this too.

Here, however, the Leica S2 will make a lot (of arguably less modern) photographers delighted to use a MF sized 16BIT sensor with custom built Leica digital lenses to match.

Meanwhile with the Leica S2 is the body that holds the 9 fine new lenses, most with central shutters allowing fast sync speed! Essentially, we are getting the same Kodak technology found in the latest Sinar and Phase one backs in just a form factor reduced by a mere 5mm! we get likey the best digital lenses made and that's what defines the camera.

Why do you think Phase One is putting its lot with them? The lenses!

It's now just a matter of seeing what the pictures will appear like and finding money! It would be reassuring if Lecia would state that this camera would, like the M8, be upgradable with new technolgies for a long term relationship between Leica and it's customer base.

Asher

For me, even with the money, should someone donate the $20,000 for the camera and then $15,000 for lenses, I'd want to still look at leaf, Phase One and Sinar. Still, right now, I'm so happy to see this one elegant company show it's optimism and create a brand new form of camera that breaks us away from the 35mm paradigm.
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  #22  
Old September 26th, 2008, 01:30 AM
Roger Lambert Roger Lambert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
For me, even with the money, should someone donate the $20,000 for the camera and then $15,000 for lenses, I'd want to still look at leaf, Phase One and Sinar.
Oh, to be wealthy again. ;D

For me, I will snap three overlapping shots with my three-year-old 12.8 MP 5D, and photomerge them with a click of a Photoshop button. Make it four overlapping shots to make up for the lenses.

With the extra $35K, I will buy a fishing cabin on a remote lake. Take pictures of my feet.

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  #23  
Old September 26th, 2008, 08:54 AM
Theodore Diehl Theodore Diehl is offline
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Default S2 vs. Sinar?

Hello all,
As an old Leica fan who has moved over to MF (Hy6), this news was awesome, indeed. And a number of people have placed this camera next to Sinar's product in spec comparison. But, when you think about it, I am still sure the personal Hy6 choice I made is the best, despite the probability that this will be a super machine. Why?

-Well, for one thing: all the new lenses that will need to be invested as well; despite adaptors here and there;

-What will happen 5 years down the road when the next S2 body (read S3 body) comes out?
You will have to invest in a new body. With the Hy6, just the back needs to be 'upgraded'. Or if the Hy6 body develops, keep the back and buy a new body = total freedom. As we all well know: whatever is great today will be old fashioned tomorrow in the new digital age. So update we all will, whether we like it or not.

-Leica glass is fantastic, but so is Schneider and Zeiss :-) ;

-No big, bright viewfinder;

-No possibility to shoot film when the sun hides and you need good results at 1600 ISO;

-No possibility to shoot 6 x 6 film (the adaptor is in the pipeline);

-Probably no room for a 6 x 6 chip;

Well, just my 2 cents worth.
However, if Leica makes a really good M9, I would buy it- only because it is handy to have a really small 35mm camera for interviews and places where MF or even SLR are too big and scare people :-) !
Ciao tutti,
Theodore
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  #24  
Old September 26th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Alain Briot Alain Briot is offline
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I agree that digital backs have an advantage over DSLRs since the back is separate and can be replaced while keeping the body and lenses the same.

However, that also has to be compared to the cost of the new Leica which hasn't been announced yet.
It is worth mentioning digital backs marketing as well. Back manufacturers often sell the back and throw in the camera and a lens for "free".

The other consideration is portability. Medium format cameras are heavy. The Leica will be far lighter and portable, a big plus for handheld photography, and for transportation (think airports :-)
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Old September 26th, 2008, 11:06 AM
leonardobarreto.com leonardobarreto.com is offline
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No wide angular lenses for 6 x 6 ... Leica wins

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodore Diehl View Post
Hello all,
As an old Leica fan who has moved over to MF (Hy6), this news was awesome, indeed. And a number of people have placed this camera next to Sinar's product in spec comparison. But, when you think about it, I am still sure the personal Hy6 choice I made is the best, despite the probability that this will be a super machine. Why?

-Well, for one thing: all the new lenses that will need to be invested as well; despite adaptors here and there;

-What will happen 5 years down the road when the next S2 body (read S3 body) comes out?
You will have to invest in a new body. With the Hy6, just the back needs to be 'upgraded'. Or if the Hy6 body develops, keep the back and buy a new body = total freedom. As we all well know: whatever is great today will be old fashioned tomorrow in the new digital age. So update we all will, whether we like it or not.

-Leica glass is fantastic, but so is Schneider and Zeiss :-) ;

-No big, bright viewfinder;

-No possibility to shoot film when the sun hides and you need good results at 1600 ISO;

-No possibility to shoot 6 x 6 film (the adaptor is in the pipeline);

-Probably no room for a 6 x 6 chip;

Well, just my 2 cents worth.
However, if Leica makes a really good M9, I would buy it- only because it is handy to have a really small 35mm camera for interviews and places where MF or even SLR are too big and scare people :-) !
Ciao tutti,
Theodore
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  #26  
Old September 26th, 2008, 11:07 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is online now
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Hi Alain,

Thanks for your comments. The main thing about the S2 is Leica lenses and a special IR integrated filter, using essentially the Kodak state of art MF sensor less 5mm (40mm v 45mm), lightweight form, weather & dustproof (I'll put it in the shower!) and Leica AF lenses.

Essentially this is a slghtly larger, weatherproof, Canon 5D with 1 AF point, 4 huge long buttons (2 on either side of the LCD screen) and 9 matched AF Leica lenses most with a central shutter for unlimited flash synch.

I expect these will be upgradable with future Leica S series advances.

Asher
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  #27  
Old September 26th, 2008, 12:04 PM
Theodore Diehl Theodore Diehl is offline
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Wink Body & lenses...

Hi Alain,
Well yes, you are right on that- up to a point...
For me anyway, the real weight problem with the Hy6 is not the camera body or back- they can be held with one hand easily- it is the lenses, like the 2.8/50 AFD weighing in at 1.5 kilos that can get you down when you travel with a few !

Safe bet with 35mm we can probably expect the S2 Leica lenses to be lighter
Cheers,
Theo
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  #28  
Old September 26th, 2008, 06:48 PM
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S2 lenses have to cover the same image circle as the 645 digital backs --less the 5mm that Asher mentioned--, regarding the 6x6 of the Hy6 the difference should be a bit more since that circle is 6x6, but basically the sizes should be the same.

The reason Leica was able to make compact cameras and lenses in 35mm is because they are not retro focus. When someone finally comes with a MF non reflex system like the Olympus-Panasonic Micro 4/3 (have I talked about this before?) the systems can be substantially reduced...

I don't worry about weight or cost, I will invite Asher and borrow his S2 when we reach the summit of the Andes : ) ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodore Diehl View Post
Hi Alain,
Well yes, you are right on that- up to a point...
For me anyway, the real weight problem with the Hy6 is not the camera body or back- they can be held with one hand easily- it is the lenses, like the 2.8/50 AFD weighing in at 1.5 kilos that can get you down when you travel with a few !

Safe bet with 35mm we can probably expect the S2 Leica lenses to be lighter
Cheers,
Theo
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  #29  
Old September 27th, 2008, 04:10 PM
Theodore Diehl Theodore Diehl is offline
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Default S2

Hi Leonardo,
I saw the S2 proto at the Leica stand today and spoke a little with the people in charge, and as you pointed out, the lens sizes are very close to MF, and Leica say they will be a similar weight as typical Schneider/Zeiss Hy6 lenses. Should have thought of that myself :-) !

It's hard to rid oneself of the '35mm aura' when discussing the Leica S2 in my mind. I could better think of it as an MF format in a 'wolf's skin' perhaps.

But I can honestly say that when I saw those Leica lenses and dreamed about what would happen in combination with all those pixels, it made me warm inside :<) ! If that S2 Leica glass is truly outrageously spectacular, it might make people jump, more than just the pixels present in the sensor....
Cheers,
Theo
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