Question: Simplest Workflow for volume interior architectural shots.

[Asher Kelman]

Guys,

This is directed to those with some experience in serious architectural work, especially interiors. I have a task of creating a collection of attractive shots of college campus space resources to promote rental of space for special events. Initially, the catalog of facilities will be web-based. So I was wondering if renting a 14mm lens and cropping as needed might work using the 5D and processing through DXO. (There are no profiles for the 14mm lens with the 5DII as of the current DXO web page). I'm open to all other options.

I am used to doing large panos and correcting in Autopano pro or else in Photoshop. That's fine and enjoyable for a few shots where there is no delivery schedule. Here, however, I have a request for very large shot list with with many wide spaces, tall concert halls, in addition to exterior shots. (The latter pose no issues as this is what I do often). I plan to go quickly through all the shots and then see where the pictures are inadequate and require special lighting or technique. I don't want to manually correct everything, one by one, for lens distortions, CA, vignetting etc.

I'm thinking of using a more automatic workflow. I use a Canon 5D, 5DII, 1DII, G10. I have a LF camera but do not want to create the expense of processing and scanning film. Otherwise, I have no T/S lenses capability. I could, of course rent a Canon T/S lens. For wide angle shots I'm limited: I sold my 17-35mm 2.8L, had my 15mm fisheye pocketed on a shoot and so it's 24-105mm, 50mm, (18mm, 28mm Zeiss on the 1DII) or stitch at 50 mm or 24-105 on the 5DII. DXO does corrections for the Canon lenses including the 17-40 ff4L USM the Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX DG which I guess could rent or buy.

So can you suggest the most efficient workflow, so I end up with corrected orthogonal architectural images?

Asher

BTW, Lighting is a challenge and worries me as some institutions seem to have little respect for even lighting and color consequences! Where there is window light, that's what i'll use. Otherwise I have lots of lumedyne flash or will rent big guns.

[Michael Fontana]

Asher

using a 14 mm for all interiors would be a mistake; while that range help in some situations, it 's way to wide in some others, like the wide spaces.

For your duty - mostly webbased, the 16 - 35 is way more versatile, as you probably havent' access to the N 14 -24, which would be better in IQ.

You might use Lensfix instead of DXO.
If big prints are required in outstanding quality, you can stich for these occasions with a prime.

Yeah, ligthing isn't alwith easy in interiors. but making bracket shots until 5 f-stops help a lot.
When using studio flashes, you' re far away from a smooth and fast workflow, as you need to control its reflections on glass and metal, so basically have to shoot thetered.

[Asher Kelman]

Michael,

Thanks so much. When you mention Lens Fix, does it have advantages over DXO? Is it easier to use or more complete?

Asher

[Michael Fontana]

Well Asher

Lensfix or PTLens, Intelmac > 10.5.2, and PS-CS-3 are both Photoshop-plugins, which speeds up the workflow, as you'll be in PS anyway.

Lenscorrector is a plug-in as well, but then you've to calibrate the lens yourself, which might be fine for lenses which are not supported by the other plugins. To be fair, with Lenscorrector it's more easy to calibrate, than with the other two plugins.

Therefore have a look at the supported-lens page. AFAIK, PTLens has the biggest list of it.

[Nicolas Claris]

Bonjour Asher
I agree 100% with Michael…

some more comments within your quoted text:

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Guys,

This is directed to those with some experience in serious architectural work, especially interiors. I have a task of creating a collection of attractive shots of college campus space resources to promote rental of space for special events. Initially, the catalog of facilities will be web-based. So I was wondering if renting a 14mm lens and cropping as needed might work using the 5D and processing through DXO. (There are no profiles for the 14mm lens with the 5DII as of the current DXO web page). I'm open to all other options.

For interior shots, you need to have a very good zoom lens (as the Nikkor 14-24) or lots of primes from 14 to 35, cropping 14 mm shotsis not an option and will only bring you all the downsides of UWAs.
Unless your aim is "artistic" views, 14mm ain't good for wide areas (as Michael has said already)
14 mm does not like too close objects on the sides…

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

I am used to doing large panos and correcting in Autopano pro or else in Photoshop. That's fine and enjoyable for a few shots where there is no delivery schedule. Here, however, I have a request for very large shot list with with many wide spaces, tall concert halls, in addition to exterior shots. (The latter pose no issues as this is what I do often). I plan to go quickly through all the shots and then see where the pictures are inadequate and require special lighting or technique. I don't want to manually correct everything, one by one, for lens distortions, CA, vignetting etc.

Save lighting time and use some more in PPing ambient light!
You will need to achieve lens distortions correction, CA, vignetting (though not with the Nikkopr!)

Lensfix is a good option, PTlens also when using a file with the right exif in it (not the case with the Nikkor mounted on a Canon body…)

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

I'm thinking of using a more automatic workflow. I use a Canon 5D, 5DII, 1DII, G10. I have a LF camera but do not want to create the expense of processing and scanning film. Otherwise, I have no T/S lenses capability. I could, of course rent a Canon T/S lens. For wide angle shots I'm limited: I sold my 17-35mm 2.8L, had my 15mm fisheye pocketed on a shoot and so it's 24-105mm, 50mm, (18mm, 28mm Zeiss on the 1DII) or stitch at 50 mm or 24-105 on the 5DII. DXO does corrections for the Canon lenses including the 17-40 ff4L USM the Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX DG which I guess could rent or buy.

So can you suggest the most efficient workflow, so I end up with corrected orthogonal architectural images?

Interior shots do not always and only need UWAs and WAs, I use focals from 14 to 70 mm depending of what I want to show…
For top quality shots, forget the Canon 17-40 f4L USM and the Sigma 12-24mm, they have hugue CA and soft corners compared to other Canons (T/S 24) and Nikkor 14-24

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Asher

BTW, Lighting is a challenge and worries me as some institutions seem to have little respect for even lighting and color consequences! Where there is window light, that's what i'll use. Otherwise I have lots of lumedyne flash or will rent big guns.

I would not go that route, unless you have at least 2 or 3 assistants (knowing the job, not newbies) for large concert halls!

[Asher Kelman]

O.K. my friends,

If I use the Nikon 14-24, the Canon body would have it work without me having to get hold of an adapter So far your suggestion I'd simply rent that great lens and Nikon D700 full frame camera. I'd use a heavy tripod, grey card and long exposure as needed to use ~ f5.6-f8

I'll try available lighting first. Where needed, I can reshoot using get 3 giant octadomes, up to 2000 W/S each and have assistants change angles until the lighting on my exposure meter is pretty even everywhere in the field. I'll just spend the time mapping exposure triggering the light from my light meter. There's nothing heavy for me to carry. The stage assistant will do that.

Is there a Nikon zoom above 14-24 that's as pristine for the next higher range of angles?

Asher

[Nicolas Claris]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Is there a Nikon zoom above 14-24 that's as pristine for the next higher range of angles?

Asher

as far as I remember my old times as a Nikonist, the Nikkor AFS 28-70 f 2,8 was a good piece of glass… but that's long time ago…

See there : http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Ni...ngle-Zoom.page

[Michael Fontana]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

I'll try available lighting first. Where needed, I can reshoot using get 3 giant octadomes, up to 2000 W/S each and have assistants change angles until the lighting on my exposure meter is pretty even everywhere in the field. I'll just spend the time mapping exposure triggering the light from my light meter. There's nothing heavy for me to carry. The stage assistant will do that. Asher

That's a possibilty, but not really a simple workflow.
In the concert halls, often you might find different light sources, already, like entry light, scene light, etc. Just capture them individually and blend later in PS. 6000 WS aren't enough for big spaces, anyway.

Using the original room lights has the advantage too, that the photo will look like the the audience is seeing it - meanwhile if you add light, you create a °artificial° lightning.

Another hint: for the rooms with windows, you decide prior of the shots if you make the entire serie with the room beeing in shadow or sun, but never change that. That'll give a consistency, which is important in a follow up of several images.

Use a macbeth- or other gray card, for WB consistency as well.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Guys,

This is directed to those with some experience in serious architectural work, especially interiors. I have a task of creating a collection of attractive shots of college campus space resources to promote rental of space for special events.

Hi Asher,

I assume these are (partly) furnished rooms/halls? If so, then don't overdo the WA approach because that will create too much projection distortion.

Initially, the catalog of facilities will be web-based.

That means you could use almost any camera to get the shots. However, what could the follow up output be? You don't want to reshoot things, so make sure you have enough resolution for repurposing the images.

I don't want to manually correct everything, one by one, for lens distortions, CA, vignetting etc.

While a good Raw processor will tackle most of those issues, using a very good lens helps a lot. That basically reduces the options to only a couple of candidates, the usual suspects mentioned already by Michael an Nicolas.

So can you suggest the most efficient workflow, so I end up with corrected orthogonal architectural images?

To save time on keystoning correction and keep high quality, a T/S lens is the way to go, but with only a bit more work the images can be postprocessed in a Pano Stitcher. Single images can be keystone corrected when your images have a couple of vertical clues. If the software allows to use lens profiles, then even lenses with some cushion/barrel distortion can be corrected in the same run. One doesn't need to stitch multiple images, single images can be corrected just as well.

However, when you use either the new 17 or 24mm TS/E lenses from Canon, or the Nikon 14-24mm G lens, there will be little postprocessing required. The 24mm may be not wide enough, depending on how the rooms can be shot, but does have the benefit of resolution due to its high magnification ratio. The Nikon lens is the most flexible(!), but you'll have to correct for keystoning (or crop a lot of floorspace when the camera is used leveled) in post. It may help to have a copy of floorplans to plan the shooting, and choose FOV angles and DOF requirements in advance. Good preparation takes time, but saves more time.

BTW, Lighting is a challenge and worries me as some institutions seem to have little respect for even lighting and color consequences! Where there is window light, that's what i'll use. Otherwise I have lots of lumedyne flash or will rent big guns.

My preference is for natural light, but there may be some benefit to using some artificial fill light if you want to reduce the need for exposure bracketing (athough programs like Photomatix (exposure fusion instead of HDR tonemapping) allow to do that reasonably fast). Adding artificial light also adds a lot of time consuming work.

Cheers,
Bart

[Asher Kelman]

Bart, Michael and Nicolas,

Thanks so much for all your help! I usually work with just one or two images at a time and do a lot in PS in masked layers. Now I'm faced with a 60 or more shots. So now, I want to be more effective with my time. Your input is therefore really valuable to me.

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

Hi Asher,

I assume these are (partly) furnished rooms/halls? If so, then don't overdo the WA approach because that will create too much projection distortion.

There are outdoor grand spaces with paving with glass insets that light up at night. We have impressive modern architecture surrounding this space and I've done a good series of panos previously.

Some interior are performance halls with seating and a stage or stage space or dance space. Others like the ultramodern café is a 3 story glass spaces with an over hand in one corner, (my photographic studio, BTW). Other spaces are reception lounges with various modern armchair and sofa seating setups, handsome stone pillars and some interesting architectural. Some spaces have over hanging balconies and are pierced by staircases backed by glass. Some are huge performance halls with geometric patterned walls, wooden floor but empty.

So there's a huge variety. They also ask for some pictures with "dramatic lighting" on the stage, whatever that means! Their idea is to be able to appeal to many different potential high end renters for special events. So it's a creative challenge. For the dramatic lighting I thought of setting up a set with several models. That I'll do last and will be something I'll think about.

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

That means you could use almost any camera to get the shots. However, what could the follow up output be? You don't want to reshoot things, so make sure you have enough resolution for repurposing the images.

I'd imagine 8x10, for print would be enough although they will be doing some banners! So I should do the best quality and not have to repeat.

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

While a good Raw processor will tackle most of those issues, using a very good lens helps a lot. That basically reduces the options to only a couple of candidates, the usual suspects mentioned already by Michael an Nicolas.

Yes, that's the direction I'm going. I think that Nikon D700 or D3X and the 14-24 will serve me very well. The 24 mm T/S is another possibility but if I can correct in a stitch program, that's fine. What pano program for Mac takes just one image?

Also how does one get rid of curved horizontals edges to be orthogonal in AutoPano pro after setting the verticals?

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

To save time on keystoning correction and keep high quality, a T/S lens is the way to go, but with only a bit more work the images can be postprocessed in a Pano Stitcher. Single images can be keystone corrected when your images have a couple of vertical clues. If the software allows to use lens profiles, then even lenses with some cushion/barrel distortion can be corrected in the same run. One doesn't need to stitch multiple images, single images can be corrected just as well.

I use APP. Any other Mac based processor that's better suited for architectural work?

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

However, when you use either the new 17 or 24mm TS/E lenses from Canon, or the Nikon 14-24mm G lens, there will be little postprocessing required. The 24mm may be not wide enough, depending on how the rooms can be shot, but does have the benefit of resolution due to its high magnification ratio.

It may help to have a copy of floorplans to plan the shooting, and choose FOV angles and DOF requirements in advance. Good preparation takes time, but saves more time.

Good idea, I'll do that.

Originally Posted by Bart_van_der_Wolf

Adding artificial light also adds a lot of time consuming work.

If one has the right equipment and guys to lift, maybe it wont be too bad adding lighting.

Still, my idea is to do it first of all with available light with bracketing and then see where it's just not solving the issues before I add lights. Tell me what is your guide for bracketing. to me. When doing things by hand and masking, I'd expose twice for the windows to get the sky and the buildings. Then twice for the interior from the shadows to midtones. Here I would want to just drop it into a stitcher. I believe that PTMac, (Kekus) allows the first pano stitch to be used as a guide to the subsequent sets of shots in the bracketed sequence. It would be nice to set the camera to auto bracket and then have the stitcher recognize that shots were indeed bracketed without having to sort the pictures into separate sets of under-exposed normal and over-exposed.

I have to look at APP GIGA.

Asher

[Michael Fontana]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

Bart, Michael and Nicolas,

Thanks so much for all your help! I usually work with just one or two images at a time and do a lot in PS in masked layers. Now I'm faced with a 60 or more shots. So now, I want to be more effective with my time. Asher

Probably you can't work on every image to long, but as some are more important than others, you' might need to plan - as Bart pointed out - the shooting very well, that might even take longer than the shooting itself, if a lot of people are involved.

Here's just my take how to get it organised:
- on the 60 shots, I'd plan 6 - 10 with first priority, therefore bigger efforts, maybe stitching, if required. These will show the important spaces, as well as beeing the banners or big prints.

- then about 20 quite important photos, with some retouching, editing later, but < 1h.
Therfore beeing used for print, but not huge posters.

- the rest, still about 30 images, would be quick and dirt, for web only.
quick and dirt: if you use nice lenses, even these might work well for certain purposes. Example: For my 4 years work of the museum's reconstruction, we want the people to show what's going on at the building site, just on a beamer in the info-room.

As I didn't wanted to lose to much time in that and save it for the book in 2011, I decided to use for the beamer just some jpgs, generated very fast from the RAWs - no big deal, as in the default-settings. You might notice, that the beamer shows them just for about 3 secs, therefore, its fine, as long as you don't have some fully edited images beside!

[Nicolas Claris]

I tend to agree with Michael, but there's a but!
Each time I do adopt this strategy (main pics/less important ones) it appears that client's are asking fot the less important one to be produced for Hires large banner…
Unfortunately, there is no escape, you have to shoot every picture as if it is the only one in your photog's life.
Time (and your client!) which one, if any, will achieve its goal…

[Michael Fontana]

Nicolas

as this is for Asher a inhouse production, it's matter of communication, therefore bringing the right people together at the table. And I don't belief that with 60 images, all have the same importance.

While I can see very well what you mean - it happend to me too, but I started to °educate° my clients, which means that I don't mind helping them to take decisions.
If you know a building well - Asher is now for a good while at that place - he can judge the important aereas vs the less one. You might note you can reshoot much easier, beeing inhouse.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Asher Kelman

They also ask for some pictures with "dramatic lighting" on the stage, whatever that means! Their idea is to be able to appeal to many different potential high end renters for special events.

When you are bracketing, a tonemapped HDR may help to create a different atmosphere.

The shot gun approach is often used and will hit something. However, for better impact one should shoot with different ammo and intentions. Targeting specific audiences may require different approaches/angles. Since you know the place well, you'll find a way to please multiple target groups.

Yes, that's the direction I'm going. I think that Nikon D700 or D3X and the 14-24 will serve me very well. The 24 mm T/S is another possibility but if I can correct in a stitch program, that's fine. What pano program for Mac takes just one image?

You could use PTGui, or the free Hugin stitcher.

Also how does one get rid of curved horizontals edges to be orthogonal in AutoPano pro after setting the verticals?

AutoPano does things automatically. While that's a potential time saver, it also means that you have a bit less control than with the other stitchers when things don't work out as intended. Luckily, with a good lens, such as the 14-24 Nikon or the Canon TS-E lenses, you won't have to worry about geometric lens distortions. With PTGui or Hugin you can use a lens profile to adjust for whatever distortion is left. You can create your own profile for the lens at hand, and all you need is a single well chosen image to calibrate with, and apply that to all others.

I use APP. Any other Mac based processor that's better suited for architectural work?

When it works, APP is fine, but when you need to intervene, PTGui AND Hugin are hard to beat on a Mac. On Windows I use PTAssembler, which offers lots of control and many projections to compensate somewhat for too wide Fields of View. Hugin has some novel features, e.g. to correct for vignetting but you should probably do that already in the Raw converter. Hugin's price is hard to beat ;-)

If one has the right equipment and guys to lift, maybe it wont be too bad adding lighting.

Still, my idea is to do it first of all with available light with bracketing and then see where it's just not solving the issues before I add lights. Tell me what is your guide for bracketing.

I don't have experience with the Nikons, but maybe they have the same response as Canons.

When there are windows in the image, it depends on whether they are skylight windows or windows with a view outside. Shooting on an overcast day will reduce the exterior/interior contrast.
With skylight windows, try to get an exposure metering (or use test shots) to determine the clipping level. If you have a window with a view, expose it for a slightly bright outside. That's your shortest exposure.
You now need to determine the exposure for the shadows, which depends on the interior lighting scheme and colors. Divide the range you need to span in 1 - 4/3rd of a stop intervals. It really helps to have more than 3 bracketing shots. The 1Ds3 offers up to 7 bracketed exposures, I rarely need more. Try to avoid too large steps between the exposures because that can cause problems with blending without banding.

For a rapid workflow, just process the bracketed series in Photomatix or a stitcher that allows exposure fusion. Photomatix does a decent job of auto-aligning the image stack, so that may save some time. Photomatix also allows to create a HDR and do tonemapping for extreme light contrasts. Pano stitchers are getting better at automatically fusing the individual tiles, but how well that works depends on the stitcher and the control point generator that it uses.

Cheers,
Bart

[Nicolas Claris]

Originally Posted by Michael Fontana

Nicolas

as this is for Asher a inhouse production, it's matter of communication, therefore bringing the right people together at the table. And I don't belief that with 60 images, all have the same importance.

Of course not, but everyone has not always the same scale…

Originally Posted by Michael Fontana

While I can see very well what you mean - it happend to me too, but I started to °educate° my clients, which means that I don't mind helping them to take decisions.
If you know a building well - Asher is now for a good while at that place - he can judge the important aereas vs the less one. You might note you can reshoot much easier, beeing inhouse.

To educate a client needs time! but yes in Asher's case, he can reshoot… which is rarely my case…

[Michael Fontana]

I agree Nicolas, that not all the situations are the same...

Bart: When it works, APP is fine, but when you need to intervene, PTGui AND Hugin are hard to beat on a Mac.

Correct, that's way I went, after buying a APP -license, some two years ago, for another one from PTGui. There isn't literally anythhing that you can't do with it! It does the stitch, when APP failed, so since a good while I'm just running PTGui only.