Slicing the Pie

[Ray West]

It came up in another thread, about adding yet another section to opf. Also Nicolas, mentioned the complexities of operating this forum. It got me thinking, as to why we always seem to make things complex, why we follow predefined routes, why we do things safely, when we don't have to?

So, just to chuck out a few ideas. Why not throw out all the boundaries we have wrt 'Nikon', 'landscape', and so on? Maybe instead have sections headed such as 'taken with gear costing more than $5000.00' , 'gear more than 30 years old', and/or maybe 'I'm worth $5000.00 per hour' or 'I'm more than 30 years old', say. Perhaps sections headed 'photos with more red than green', 'more green than blue', whatever, 'blurry, but I like it'


Best wishes,

Ray

ps - 'we' = whoever you want it to be.

 

[nicolas claris]

Hi Ray
What is more complex for a fora website dedicated to photography?

A place easy to surf with many categories so you can identify the one you want to fit in.
Or
An open space where everybody can meet anybody?

or with different wording
School with many classrooms (and teachers!)
or
A cocktail party in a big huge place with bars and buffets and some guys to serve drinks

If you've read other recent threads, you'll know my feeling but I'd like to konw what others are looking for, how the would like OPF to target…

 

[Mary Bull]

I don't really care.

So far as I can interpret my own self, I plan to be here at OPF no matter what.

You guys who make the decisions do whatever you think best.

I was only trying to give one--and possibly a one-of-a-kind--point of view, in my posts to the topic that "Secret forums ..." had drifted to. In case it might help.

Mary

 

[Dierk Haasis]

A place easy to surf with many categories so you can identify the one you want to fit in.
Or
An open space where everybody can meet anybody?

Neither.

While certain categories lend themselves naturally - Nikon in one board, Canon another - others can be a bit of a stretch. We have now 6 sub-cats in the free-flying section, add to that the rather long descriptions and that section looks overwhelming. At the same time RAW conversion and retouchin have been split in two although newer applications try to combine them more nad more [e.g. Capture NX, LightZone, RAW Shooter].

There's also some inconsistencies, we have a pet's corner but wild animals are subsumed under landscape (and where does that leave cities?). Under Photography Discussions we find, beside genres, one business board but others are in the Uptown section.

Strangely I'd consolidate the gear fora first since I don't see a difference between shooting a good image with a Canon 1DsMk2-whatsoever, a Pentax K100 or a Nkon995.

The finer a hierarchy gets the less useful it is.

 

[Ray West]

The journey is the destination

Hi Nicolas

Your whole post, ending in

Walls are hiding the reality. Open and hidden are kind of contradiction.
No wall for me please.

[Largely edited because of failure of battery)

Made me want to raise a cheer. You said exactly my thoughts on that particular issue re. new/old members.

I am trying get us to perhaps push things in general a bit more to the extreme, dismantle pre-conceptions, see what is behind it, the concepts, the whys, the whys and the whys.

I suppose, if we are sticking on the photography track, I saw a sunset photo the other day, if I say that I expect you have a general idea of what I mean. Why????? Surely, not another sunset? I saw a waterfall photo too. Ugh, not another one with the blurry/creamy water effect - yes, but that one sort of worked for me. Why????? Someone actually selling macro photos, for quite substantial amounts. ( a how??? may fit better here!)

Not that I can remember much about it, but back in the sixties, the hippy movement? started off in UK. everybody trying to be so with it, so different, but all the same - (little boxes with legs on). I see a whole load of current photography is like that.

Creation is about making something from nothing much, hopefully something not seen before. If its been seen before, then its mass produced. Its the unexpected that needs triggering. Can you teach invention???

I have no idea about haslebad? cameras, but I read the recent thread, read the link to the guy who'd bought the wrong kit - well right when he bought it, wrong now, maybe- and thought I could poke my oar in. It got some response. Maybe a few folk thought about it a bit more, maybe a few thought what does that guy know about it. Only by luck did I find the original post. Whether it mad a difference, who knows. (a bit like the butterfly effect - flap wings in oz, hurricane in mexico, whatever). But I tend to try and read all the stuff here. The way in which Hassy do things, if successful, will be followed by others, what i have learnt from that brief excursion may be of use to me or others later on, but I doubt if I will be able to remember it....

Some years ago, when uk half joined the 'common market', uk farmers wives protested about the importing of French apples. They drove to London in their Volvo cars. They got a lot of support from uk car workers - not. What has that example got to do with anything here? I've been trying to remember, from only 5 mins. ago, so if you think about it, you may find some hidden gem.

I'm hoping that something different will come out of this thread, see if it will trigger something that will work better than now, see if by thinking 'out of the box' gets anywhere. No big deal for me, but we could run with it in any direction, if its so wished.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Ray West]

Hi Dierk,

an engineering example I quote, is in storing, say, nuts and bolts. Maybe, at home, I have some containers. I label them in order, by length, 20mm, 50mm, 60mm. I put my handful of steel bolts in the correct container. Then, next week, I get some brass ones, instead of steel. Can I more quickly pick out the 60mm brass ones from 60mm steel ones, or from 20mm steel ones? How about stainless steel, how about cadmium plated. Then, I get some with hex socket heads, then slotted, then pozi, then philips, etc.My perfect system gets broke pdq.

A storage system has to evolve with whatever is being stored, unless you start off with an incredible amount of redundancy. It is usually difficult to choose a unique, meaningful, reference system. In any case a good search mechanism is useful.

Thinking further, a forum is possibly no longer good enough for what we want to do. No answers from me, just questions.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Rob Peterson]

One message in multiple topics

It came up in another thread, about adding yet another section to opf. Also Nicolas, mentioned the complexities of operating this forum. It got me thinking, as to why we always seem to make things complex, why we follow predefined routes, why we do things safely, when we don't have to?

Ray

The old (25+ years), but still used, Usenet newsgroup system supports placing a single message into one or more topics. Web-based discussion software, as far as I'm aware, never picked up this feature. Think about a scrolling menu, enabled when a message is being composed, listing all possible topics with the ability to select one or more topics in which the message will appear. Messages are written and posted once, but appear in every selected topic. This capability changes the author's decision from, "Which of the appropriate topics should I post in, and should I post a pointer from the topic(s) I don't choose to the real discussion?" to "Which topic or topics does this message belong in?".

I can imagine a discussion about retouching a landscape image appearing in both the "Landscape - Wildlife - Travel" topic and the "Retouching & Repairing" topic, which a portrait color balance discussion could appear in "Retouching & Repairing," "Portrait," and "White Balance". This message, for example, could very well be appropriate and of interest both here in "Provocative Thoughts and Images" and in "OPF Look, Feel, and Vibe."

This is a different approach to addressing, I think, some of the complexity arising when the operators attempt to design the set of topics. That is, this feature reduces the impact of having fine differences between topics. Having this feature raises new issues, of course, and the benefit tradeoffs would need to be carefully considered if the feature is or becomes available.

Bob

 

[Dierk Haasis]

The old (25+ years), but still used, Usenet newsgroup system supports placing a single message into [...] more topics.

Which is one of the big no-nos in Usenet: cross-posting.

Personally I am a big friend of Usenet, not only because I have been using it long before the Web became all the rage. It supports a lot of things not easily done on Web fora, including much faster access to the posts one is interested in - one of the reasons I use Agent over NNTP with Adobe's boards [leading to some odd discussions when admins set up NNTP wrongly].

 

[Rob Peterson]

Which is one of the big no-nos in Usenet: cross-posting.

The acceptability of crossposting, i.e., placing an article in more than one newsgroup ("topics" in the terminology of OPF), depends heavily on the particular newsgroups involved. For example, the charters (rules of the newsgroups) for the North Texas regional newsgroups generally allow limited crossposting. The North Texas regional newsgroup charters are themselves crossposted. A number of FAQ articles used to be routinely crossposted. Anything can be abused, including crossposting.

Personally I am a big friend of Usenet, not only because I have been using it long before the Web became all the rage. It supports a lot of things not easily done on Web fora, including much faster access to the posts one is interested in - one of the reasons I use Agent over NNTP with Adobe's boards [leading to some odd discussions when admins set up NNTP wrongly].

I began reading newsgroups in the mid-1970s, and I never stopped. I, too, use Agent.

Bob

 

[Jack_Flesher]

SNIP ~ Maybe instead have sections headed such as 'taken with gear costing more than $5000.00' , 'gear more than 30 years old', and/or maybe 'I'm worth $5000.00 per hour' or 'I'm more than 30 years old', say. Perhaps sections headed 'photos with more red than green', 'more green than blue', whatever, 'blurry, but I like it'
.

Best thought ever. Last count there were 45 different topics to post under here --- IMO that's about 40 too many. But then I just finished a bottle of Duckhorn Merlot so maybe my judgement is clouded.

 

[Don Lashier]

Actually I find the organization here not nearly so confusing as at LL, and judging from all the misplaced posts there, I'm not alone.

- DL

 

[Asher Kelman]

If Pentax guys are struggling with the use of a particular function, you do not need that in a landscape thread. The idea is to simplify according to interest.

Pets section, for Dierk, is a gift to the many pet lovers I discovered and the great business in the hand of the skilled for photography of pets as a money earning profession. So this needs it's own room.

Landscape will be separated from wild animals when we have enough posts. There will, similarly be a unique room for birders. However, the rooms to exist must have the population to support hem. So we look for a balance.

The recent additon of for in the new section "Uptown" was in response to a melangé of commerce, commercial annountments and inuendo, that created conflict with the purpose of fora. However, in the new locations they become a resource.

Similarly, the Entry to Digital Imaging forum will make it easier for people to get going here with less intimidation, since everyone knows that the questons come from people needing real basic help, not nuanced discussions with many conditionals.

As we proceed, we are continually merging or creating threads according to traffic. We are not static and are responsive to any suggestions but these have to fit in to our own vison for OPF.

It's going to be open, changing and growing. We want to attract and keep core experienced photographers in each forum. That really defines a particular forum.

I am particularly indebted for all you guys especially Dierk, Don, Jack, Ray,Rob, Nicholas and Mary for giving feedback from all different perspectives.

Are you finding you can flag posts to look at ones you are interested in?

Asher

 

[Sean DeMerchant]

I.

Are you finding you can flag posts to look at ones you are interested in?

Yes. Albeit, I just use the New Posts or the Quick Links->Today's Posts links to see what is happening and subscribe as desired so I do not even note the forums chosen for posts. Albeit, for my occasional new thread I often find myself semi-randomly choosing a forum for a post from a semi-aligned group of topics rather than one that is directly on topic.

Hence, you get yet another opinion in favor of pruning topics to more general classes. As a specific example, I favor joining the RAW versus JPEG workflow forums into a single digital workflow forum as so much is similar in character if differing in quality of final output. Additionally such joining would expose those following explicit forums to a wider range of topics giving them a better grounding in their working area regardless of their specialization.

some thoughts,

Sean

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Sean, that was done some time ago! RAW and JPG is now in one forum "Image Processing and Workflow".

I do this but sometimes you may not notice. Also, I sometimes split a thread into component topics if an off topic has got an engine with steam!

Asher

 

[ChrisDauer]

The old (25+ years), but still used, Usenet newsgroup system supports placing a single message into one or more topics. Web-based discussion software, as far as I'm aware, never picked up this feature. Think about a scrolling menu, enabled when a message is being composed, listing all possible topics with the ability to select one or more topics in which the message will appear. Messages are written and posted once, but appear in every selected topic. This capability changes the author's decision from, "Which of the appropriate topics should I post in, and should I post a pointer from the topic(s) I don't choose to the real discussion?" to "Which topic or topics does this message belong in?".

I can imagine a discussion about retouching a landscape image appearing in both the "Landscape - Wildlife - Travel" topic and the "Retouching & Repairing" topic, which a portrait color balance discussion could appear in "Retouching & Repairing," "Portrait," and "White Balance". This message, for example, could very well be appropriate and of interest both here in "Provocative Thoughts and Images" and in "OPF Look, Feel, and Vibe."

This is a different approach to addressing, I think, some of the complexity arising when the operators attempt to design the set of topics. That is, this feature reduces the impact of having fine differences between topics. Having this feature raises new issues, of course, and the benefit tradeoffs would need to be carefully considered if the feature is or becomes available.

Bob

I think this could be a great way to go. A simple small database to query which potential threads to display at the Topic level. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

From a 'it would be nice if' perspective:

It would be nice if we could expand or contract the higher group levels. If I want to see Buy & Sell, I've got a fair bit of scrolling to do. If I'm not interested in Post production, it would be nice to collapse Post Production Topics to the single heading.

Perhaps this is a bit off topic but the number of topics seems to be what is up for debate and this is merely a way to handle the growing number of them.

 

[Asher Kelman]

How would you like a small graphic on the top with recognizable sub icons for the different main sections? I've had that on my "to do" list for some time!

Asher

 

[Asher Kelman]

I think this could be a great way to go. A simple small database to query which potential threads to display at the Topic level. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

From a 'it would be nice if' perspective:

It would be nice if we could expand or contract the higher group levels. If I want to see Buy & Sell, I've got a fair bit of scrolling to do. If I'm not interested in Post production, it would be nice to collapse Post Production Topics to the single heading.

Perhaps this is a bit off topic but the number of topics seems to be what is up for debate and this is merely a way to handle the growing number of them.

My bold letters!



Chris,

How would you like a small graphic on the top with recognizable sub icons for the different main sections? I've had that on my "to do" list for some time!

Asher

 

[Ray West]

The problem with analogies - maybe I shouldn't have chosen 'pie', perhaps 'Batternberg cake' would have been better. This thread has basically become more of a discussion of how big the same sort of slices should be - not provocative enough............

Do not restrain yourselves with what may be possible, what you have seen before.

Hope you don't mind me poking the fire.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[Erik DeBill]

Do not restrain yourselves with what may be possible, what you have seen before.

Hope you don't mind me poking the fire.

Unfortunately, familiar categories are a huge aid for new users.

That would be mitigated if we could default users to seeing the new posts page instead of the categorized list. That's where you find the active discussions anyway, so it's most of the interest. We're not yet big enough that it's unwieldy, either.

I've found that if the list of threads updated in the last day is more than 1-2 pages it quits being useful. I'd suggest that if we see one topic routinely having more than about 1 page worth of active threads it's a great candidate for splitting.

 

[Asher Kelman]

I am constantly looking at adjusting out threads and fora. Whenever you see something out of whack, let me know.

I'm going to sketch out my design of an iconic set of symbols to speed up finding subjects. If anyone has ideas, sketch it in P.S. and then send a jpg. or draw it and photograph it. Remember, if you send suggestions, it's a gift to OPF! Also don't ever send anything you wish to market, unless you have already copyrighted/patented it, except photographs and text, which are always yours.

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

That would be mitigated if we could default users to seeing the new posts page instead of the categorized list. That's where you find the active discussions anyway, so it's most of the interest. We're not yet big enough that it's unwieldy, either.

I've found that if the list of threads updated in the last day is more than 1-2 pages it quits being useful. I'd suggest that if we see one topic routinely having more than about 1 page worth of active threads it's a great candidate for splitting.

Hi Erik
Why don't you bookmark http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/search.php?do=getnew? (New posts) directly, then you'll have your wish fulfilled…
or even http://www.openphotographyforums.com/forums/search.php?searchid=24690 (Today's posts).
Hope it helps