I was asked to be the photographer for our little league - HELP

Over the last few years I have taken pictures of my son's little league team, during games. I have been asked to take team pictures and individual pictures for the entire league! I am honored and a little scared as I have never done anything on this scale before.

All I have in mind so far is to create a simple form for the parents to fill out, assign prices for the team pic and the individual pic. Ask for the coaches roster. Take photos of one team per day. Upload the photo to hebphoto.com (local store) and then print them and hand them to the coaches.

I would REALLY appreciate everyone's tips, suggestions, warnings and advice.

Thanks,
Wayne

For just one team it'll be no problem. I can't post much tonight, but remind me and I'll give you some tips. No worries, it'll be fun.

In the meantime, let me know what kind of gear you have, including flash.

Nill

Whoops, just reread and saw you said T&I for the entire league. That's a different kettle, with different tips. First and most important tip... enlist a helper!

How many teams?

Nill

Nill,

He's got the best guy to advise him! Thanks,

Asher

BTW, didn't you write some how to posts way back?

How many teams in the league?

Forms

Use the parent's model release and an order formand put the sequence numbers on it in order of shooting.

Get paid upfront for the prints before you shoot. Everyone will buy them.

If they don't buy them then you aren't out anything because you got your money up front.

You can upload the photos afterward to a gallery for reprints. Smugmug is great for this. Mpix has a way to do that also. You can sell buttons, team colors, t-shirts, calendars and other products that way too.

Nill Toulme said:

For just one team it'll be no problem. I can't post much tonight, but remind me and I'll give you some tips. No worries, it'll be fun.

In the meantime, let me know what kind of gear you have, including flash.

Nill

Click to expand...

I have a Canon T1i, 18-55 kit IS kit lens, 50mm 1.8 lens and a 70-300mm IS lens. I have the original 580ex flash, the basic remote, a generic diffuser, a skylight and a polarizer filter and a tripod.

Nill Toulme said:

Whoops, just reread and saw you said T&I for the entire league. That's a different kettle, with different tips. First and most important tip... enlist a helper!

How many teams?

Nill

Click to expand...

My wife is my only helper for now. I volunteered her. : P
I will know how many teams, later today.

Asher Kelman said:

Nill,

He's got the best guy to advise him! Thanks,

Asher

BTW, didn't you write some how to posts way back?

Click to expand...

I have read and reread Nill's stickies under the sports section and I plan to use that info when I shoot my son playing games but I didnt see any notes about team photos.

Will Thompson said:

How many teams in the league?

Click to expand...

Hoping to know later today.

Kathy Rappaport said:

Use the parent's model release and an order formand put the sequence numbers on it in order of shooting.

Get paid upfront for the prints before you shoot. Everyone will buy them.

If they don't buy them then you aren't out anything because you got your money up front.

You can upload the photos afterward to a gallery for reprints. Smugmug is great for this. Mpix has a way to do that also. You can sell buttons, team colors, t-shirts, calendars and other products that way too.

Click to expand...

Kathy, can you point me to the forms that you are talking about?

Thank you ALL so much for helping me! The wife and I anxiously await any more tips and I will post how many teams I am dealing with later today. THANKS AGAIN!!!

Forms

You have to create them.
Figure out what you want to price the package at. Usually one 8x10 and two 5x7's and a wallet sheet.
Little League the buttons are popular. Price them as a package and give a discount if they pay for a package.

Search for Model Release.

When you pick your products for sale you can figure out what your mark up should be. Don't forget to assign an hourly rate and calculate your time into the cost. Do not price this with only the cost of printing and postage. Your equipment wasn't free and neithre is your comptuer and software.

Use fill flash and the 50 for the portraits. For the team, you will need the wide lens. Position the team with the sun at the side.

Hi Wayne,
Some good advice offered so far!

Also, a Google search on "little league photos" will get you a ton of returns.
It might be some inspiration for poses, settings, etc.

Kathy Rappaport said:

You have to create them.
Figure out what you want to price the package at. Usually one 8x10 and two 5x7's and a wallet sheet.
Little League the buttons are popular. Price them as a package and give a discount if they pay for a package.

Search for Model Release.

When you pick your products for sale you can figure out what your mark up should be. Don't forget to assign an hourly rate and calculate your time into the cost. Do not price this with only the cost of printing and postage. Your equipment wasn't free and neithre is your comptuer and software.

Use fill flash and the 50 for the portraits. For the team, you will need the wide lens. Position the team with the sun at the side.

Click to expand...

THANK YOU so much! I dont have any experience with my 580EX flash using anything other then "auto". How do I do fill flash?

John Angulat said:

Hi Wayne,
Some good advice offered so far!

Also, a Google search on "little league photos" will get you a ton of returns.
It might be some inspiration for poses, settings, etc.

Click to expand...

Checking them out now, thanks!

Maybe you need

Maybe you need to pass on this opportunity.

In all honesty, it sounds like you aren't ready or qualified to shoot it. Being a professional photographer is a lot more than just owning a camera. You have to know how to use it in any situation - what if it's cloudy or the sun is a straight up noon. How do you get the kids to pose and how do you arrange a group. Using a flash is a basic tool. Having model releases even is amatuer stuff. Are you shooting RAW or JPG? You need backup equipment - do you have two bodies if one fails while you have all the kids ready to shoot in clean uniforms with the parents watching you? Do you have liability insurance if your light stand fell or someone trips over your camera bag?

Kathy Rappaport said:

Maybe you need to pass on this opportunity.

In all honesty, it sounds like you aren't ready or qualified to shoot it. Being a professional photographer is a lot more than just owning a camera. You have to know how to use it in any situation - what if it's cloudy or the sun is a straight up noon. How do you get the kids to pose and how do you arrange a group. Using a flash is a basic tool. Having model releases even is amatuer stuff. Are you shooting RAW or JPG? You need backup equipment - do you have two bodies if one fails while you have all the kids ready to shoot in clean uniforms with the parents watching you? Do you have liability insurance if your light stand fell or someone trips over your camera bag?

Click to expand...

Wow. I am completely deflated now. 20 years of taking pictures (amateur only), I finally get a chance and now see that I should just stay home and let the pro's do it. You started out by giving advice on everything I could try and in one statement decide to show all the reasons why I shouldnt and cant do it. Makes me think of when I applied for my first credit card and got declined because I didnt have any credit. I am trying to get past being "an amateur" that's why I asked for help.

Wayne Stratton said:

Wow. I am completely deflated now. 20 years of taking pictures (amateur only), I finally get a chance and now see that I should just stay home and let the pro's do it. You started out by giving advice on everything I could try and in one statement decide to show all the reasons why I shouldnt and cant do it. Makes me think of when I applied for my first credit card and got declined because I didnt have any credit. I am trying to get past being "an amateur" that's why I asked for help.

Click to expand...

Hi Wayne,

Kathy's advice was meant with not only the clients in mind, but also as a protection for yourself. There are a lot of aspects involved in doing such a shoot (and everything else that needs to be done, besides the actual shooting).

Unfortunately there is no simple solution to get one's feet wet, with a formal assignment it's going to be like jumping in at the deep end. So try to consider all the things that were mentioned to avoid unpleasant surprises. Model releases are a safeguard, especially when childern are involved, but unfortunately also a must. It only takes one disgruntled parent to spoil the entire fun part. Paperwork at the beginning is going to save you a lot of work afterwards. Make sure your equipment is in good working order, and arrange for some backup so you won't need it (think Murphey's law).

You can only make a first impression once, so be prepared.

Cheers,
Bart

Your comments

Wayne,

From your own comments:
You said you don't know how to use your flash for fill .
You don't know about posing
You don't know about model releases
You aren't sure what equipment to use.
You have one body that is not a pro level body - you need two of everything in case one fails

Sorry for the reality check.

Moderators,

Please delete this thread.

Kathy Rappaport said:

Wayne,

From your own comments:
You said you don't know how to use your flash for fill .
You don't know about posing
You don't know about model releases
You aren't sure what equipment to use.
You have one body that is not a pro level body - you need two of everything in case one fails

Sorry for the reality check.

Click to expand...

Jeez Kathy, kind of harsh on the guy?
He's just trying to learn.
We all had to start somewhere.

A whole little league vs a team

If it was one team it'd be different than the whole league but it's not. And it's not me who said he didn't have the skills - he said it.

When I started shooting, I didn't shoot a whole ballet school or a whole wedding or a whole event. I started with one portrait and 20 years of shooting skill where I did know how to use the tools and have the right business aspects in place.

Hi folks,

First, I'd like us all to keep our cool as usual, as I don't see a real need for any escalations as a moderator.

Wayne Stratton said:

... I dont have any experience with my 580EX flash using anything other then "auto". How do I do fill flash?..

Click to expand...

@Wayne:I think that this was the statement which has triggered the following statement by Kathy. Obviously, if you don't know something as basic as doing a fill flash, it might be interpreted as such that you are way over your head in this matter as Kathy wrote:

Kathy Rappaport said:

Maybe you need to pass on this opportunity.

In all honesty, it sounds like you aren't ready or qualified to shoot it. Being a professional photographer is a lot more than just owning a camera. You have to know how to use it in any situation - what if it's cloudy or the sun is a straight up noon. How do you get the kids to pose and how do you arrange a group. Using a flash is a basic tool. Having model releases even is amatuer stuff. Are you shooting RAW or JPG? You need backup equipment - do you have two bodies if one fails while you have all the kids ready to shoot in clean uniforms with the parents watching you? Do you have liability insurance if your light stand fell or someone trips over your camera bag?

Click to expand...

Knowing Kathy for a long time (also personally), I am 100% certain that she had your best interest in mind when she wrote this. I personally would have expressed myself using different words, but the principle remains. What to do when you see somebody take on a challenge which might overwhelm him/her? Do you let him/her sink or do you offer a perspective which might come over as being hard and unfair? If you would consider the fact that Kathy has nothing to lose or to gain personally in this matter, perhaps you can also consider her remarks as being honest and in your own interest.

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

Hi Wayne,

Kathy's advice was meant with not only the clients in mind, but also as a protection for yourself. There are a lot of aspects involved in doing such a shoot (and everything else that needs to be done, besides the actual shooting).

Unfortunately there is no simple solution to get one's feet wet, with a formal assignment it's going to be like jumping in at the deep end. So try to consider all the things that were mentioned to avoid unpleasant surprises. Model releases are a safeguard, especially when childern are involved, but unfortunately also a must. It only takes one disgruntled parent to spoil the entire fun part. Paperwork at the beginning is going to save you a lot of work afterwards. Make sure your equipment is in good working order, and arrange for some backup so you won't need it (think Murphey's law).

You can only make a first impression once, so be prepared.

Cheers,
Bart

Click to expand...

I fully agree with what Bart has written.

Wayne Stratton said:

Moderators,

Please delete this thread.

Click to expand...

But why? Is it because you think that it is kind of insulting for you? If that is the reason, I can assure you that no insult was intended and you should not see it as such. Any regular reader of OPF will see clearly why you have asked for advice and also why Kathy wrote what she wrote. There is no insult involved in this whole process, so please do not assume that there is one hiding somewhere.

John Angulat said:

Jeez Kathy, kind of harsh on the guy?
He's just trying to learn.
We all had to start somewhere.

Click to expand...

John is quite right, as I wrote above, that Kathy's tone might be interpreted as being too direct and business like. But sometimes, somebody who helps you to face the reality is the best advice you can get, even if it hasn't been sugar-coated.

So here is my plea to all: please consider both sides of this story (i.e. somebody who is just trying to learn vs. somebody who provides a seemingly harsh but sound business advice). I know that when the dust settles, you'll all see that nothing is lost in this exchange, but there are some valuable lessons to be learnt

Cheers,

Ugghhh.....the place I am in right now reminds me of those Southwest Airlines commercials http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIK0kzhEJzM.

I am not insulted. I asked for help and got great advice from her up until post #8, then instead of giving me a warning or more advice or a link to where I could by insurance I took it that she gave up on me because she was tired of my questions. It was the 180 degree tone change and how she presented it that shocked me. I agree that she is right, but I am here to get past my downfalls. I appreciate the warnings but wonder why she didnt word it as she did in the initial posts that she made.

With that said,

I found this page about Fill Flash. Is this a good place to start?

http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=106

I was told by someone on here that my camera body doesnt matter, that it is the photographer and the lenses. I just bought this Canon T1i, do I need to return it for a better one?

Where should I look for insurance? I called State Farm and they have never heard of it.
If I google it I find this...... http://www.packagechoice.com/index.jsp#htwms

For anyone that still wants to help, even Kathy, maybe me providing more information will help.

Based on Kathy's suggestions and everyone elses:

I have a Canon T1i my backup will be my old Canon Rebel XT body that I sold to a friend.
I will get insurance.
I shoot in RAW
I will do a basic group shot like the many I found on google for the team pic and a basic one knee with glove in hand for the individual.
I was going to charge $20 for the team shot (8 X 10) and $10 for an individual (5 X 7). These will be prepaid using a form that I will create. I have a legal form maker cd around the house somewhere that I will use to start with.
I am planning to take pictures of only one team a night and maybe work up to two and I am hoping to do this during th "golden hour" if time permits. For every "scheduled team pic time I give I will also give a "in case of bad weather" time as a backup.

You know, Wayne, I'm kind of in the middle on this. I REFUSE to shoot weddings because the pressure is intense, people don't want to pose (they want great shots magically), they're hard to please, and I'm neither experienced or patient enough for this. So, that said, i see you as in a position similar to taking on a wedding. It might not be pretty!

So, how about a compromise? I often shoot community events (plays, dance recitals) but do so without charging. It's fine to cover print costs, but make sure people know you're donating time and expertise. This would be a great way to learn. Make it clear that you're not pro, that you're doing a favor. That way, if they don't like the results, no harm, no foul (to use a sports metaphor). Then you'll be in a position to determine if you want to do it for a fee at some later date. So, my advice: Seize the opportunity, but de-fang it.

But don't be discouraged! This glass is half-full, after all.

My message

My advice is still my advice.

Thank you, Bart and Cem and Rachel. You know me since the start of OPF.

Yes, I am direct and to the point. My initial advice would be that for any new shooter and I was on board until you stated you didn't know how to use fill flash which is beginning amateur photography and the questions about which gear to use clicked in. Yes, everyone needs a break to get a foot in. Sometimes we get a foot in where we aren't prepared to do that. It sounds like you really have an opportunity that if you miss will be harmful to a group of kids and their families.

As a professional photographer and long time business consultant - that is one way I see it. A true professional knows when to walk away from a job they aren't prepared to handle. You might be next year. Rachel's advice to let them know it's beyond your scope and you would take the job as a learning experience is actually good.

There is a third issue that hasn't been brought up but the fact that as professional photographers we also have to consider that the job that is available could be sold too cheap (free) and that photography as a paid commondity is going to soon disappear because too many amateurs who are starting out are underpricing their work and impacting the profession to a point where at some point it won't exist.

Kathy Rappaport said:

My advice is still my advice.

Thank you, Bart and Cem and Rachel. You know me since the start of OPF.

Yes, I am direct and to the point. My initial advice would be that for any new shooter and I was on board until you stated you didn't know how to use fill flash which is beginning amateur photography and the questions about which gear to use clicked in. Yes, everyone needs a break to get a foot in. Sometimes we get a foot in where we aren't prepared to do that. It sounds like you really have an opportunity that if you miss will be harmful to a group of kids and their families.

As a professional photographer and long time business consultant - that is one way I see it. A true professional knows when to walk away from a job they aren't prepared to handle. You might be next year. Rachel's advice to let them know it's beyond your scope and you would take the job as a learning experience is actually good.

There is a third issue that hasn't been brought up but the fact that as professional photographers we also have to consider that the job that is available could be sold too cheap (free) and that photography as a paid commondity is going to soon disappear because too many amateurs who are starting out are underpricing their work and impacting the profession to a point where at some point it won't exist.

Click to expand...

I am contemplating everyone's advice and will probably back out.

As for your third issue, that sounds like an insecurity problem to me. While I am not a photographer, I am a business professional. I work in Information Technology and I have no problem with new people entering the field and undercutting my prices. When you want quality, you will pay for it, when you want generic, well....you get what you pay for. After someone pays an amateur to fix their pc, they will be paying me to fix his problem and then pay me to fix the original problem. I disagree with your opinion that your field will no longer exist. My field of work will only go away if everyone buys a Mac (ha ha) and yours will only diminish, not disappear, during hard economic times. Like many other fields, you have the elite and the amateur, the economy is diverse enough to support us all.

I'm seriously leaning toward Mac!

Yikes, sorry I fell off the thread.

Wayne, please take Kathy's advice in the spirit in which it was given, which was nothing but constructive. I'm inclined to agree with her. T&I done even reasonably well is hard, and hard work. It can also be a huge PITA. Not something to wander into blindly and unprepared.

First and foremost, my advice to you as a photographer is I WOULD NOT undertake this job without adequate liability insurance.

Second, my advice to you as a lawyer is I WOULD NOT undertake this job without adequate liability insurance.

OK, with that out of the way... have you ever participated in a large T&I shoot as a customer? I mean, have you watched it done?

Nill

p.s. Another thought, or at least another way to think about this question — T&I is not really, or at least certainly not primarily, photography. It's production work, and your willingness and capability to do it should be evaluated as such.

Nill

Hi Wayne,

I'd consider still doing it but don't take money beforehand just get a release from the parents which includes an understanding that the first two shoot are to get to know them and are you will make the pictures available but do not guarantee any specific coverage. However, the pictures will be available for ordering via Smugmug or other site within 72 hours and they can choose what to buy. That way, the expectations are way down.

As long as it's clear that you are no guarantying the first 2 shoots, and you have 20 years of amateur shooting under your belt you should be O.K.

When does it start. Offer free group shots beforehand of say one family, just to get your lighting right. You really need 3 flashes on stands and something to fire them. I use an STE2 and have a 3 550 EXII, 1 580 EXII one 540 EX with a sensor to act as a slave to the others. Outside it may or may not work depending on how bright the sun is. I would consider getting a set of Norman flashes from Will Thompson. Tell him I said he should accept payments, LOL! He will build you something that's portable and will be trigerred by a simple synch cord plugged into your camera and will fire t lights.

For more money, Nll had a Whiite Lightening of Alien Bee set up that you could also use to advantage.

I use lots of Lumedyne portable flashes too.

Even a film camera or a Canon rebel is fine as a backup if you have used it before. I carry at least 1 spare digital body and sometimes 2. I have been foolish and used no backup and been lucky. Last week, my camera had a gold contact for hte lenses stay in the depressed position after the end of the shoot. I could have ruined an entire shoot of a full orchestra had I not had a spare.

So when Kathy sounds strict, yes she is. That's because the pro is not "kinda taking some pics for fun" but taking responsibility for covering an event and delivering the style and coverage expected for that activity.

In team sports, you might be able to arrange a special session for team shoot in togs during the day say 2 hours before sundown. Haver your wife go from position to position in that planned location and you take her picture without recomposing to see if she is covered and lit well in every place where a player will stand. At the shoot, you will not have time to figure things out.

What sports are you covering. There are responsibilities like going on the ice after a hockey game. You have to do differently for every sport and your lights have to reach.

Still, don't let anything that's said here discourage you. Rather, it's a practical effort to help you not slip on the ice or get tripped somewhere.

If you describe what you have to do, then we can help you better.

Asher