Calibration LaCie 724

Hi guys .
Is been a long time since my last post, my work schedule is just too tight and the little time I have left I dedicate to my long suffering family. I do apologize for my lack of sustantial contributions to the forum and hope you understand the situation.

Any way to matters at hand.
My Photography has really taken off (hence the lack of time) and I have found the need to upgrade my gear accordingly.
My latest acquisition, a very nice LaCie 724 Monitor.

I am generally happy with it but, I am having major problems with calibration.
The monitor came with RGB and SRGB selectable presets which work well but, the moment I go into custom calibration (using the bundled blueye colorimeter and software, and /or Datacolor spider 2 pro) the reds and magnets seem to glow and look (to me) overly saturated.

Has anyone experienced similar problems with this particular monitor and if so, how did you go about fixing it?.

Also, how do I set up Photoshop (CS4) colour spaces to work with this monitor?
Current settings are.


Any help will be very much appreciated.

Your color settings seem fine (assuming you wish Adobe RGB to be the “preferred” working space). See http://www.ppmag.com/reviews/200404_rodneycm.pdf.

As for the LaCie, if its a wide gamut unit, you calibrate to that but view images outside ICC aware applications, its likely the previews will look poor. How about the previews in Photoshop?

Hi Andrew.
So long as the monitor is in factory RGB/SRGB preset mode, Photoshop and Firefox and other CM enabled applications seem fine. But, as soon as I load the custom calibration everything suffers from the glowing overly saturated look of the reds and magentas.

The problem I am having with the presets is that they are not evenly matched corner to corner, by this I mean that the image colour accuracy varies as soon as you leave the centre of the screen. The edges seem brighter and so it is difficult to gauge detail in shadows/highlights.
The custom setting gives me even brightness throughout the monitor but the reds and magentas are way off the charts...

It is very frustrating.

Ivan Garcia said:

Hi Andrew.
So long as the monitor is in factory RGB/SRGB preset mode, Photoshop and Firefox and other CM enabled applications seem fine.

Click to expand...

They seem fine but in reality there are not. That is, you are emulating an sRGB behavior to make non ICC aware app’s appear less odd on a wide gamut display but its not a calibrated and profiled environment. So its not “accurate” compared to the wide gamut behavior with calibration and a profile.

But, as soon as I load the custom calibration everything suffers from the glowing overly saturated look of the reds and magentas.

Click to expand...

In ICC aware app’s like Photoshop? Are you sure its not just the increase in gamut (which would be in the greens anyway). Are you sure the images have embedded profiles?

Hi Andrew.
I just finished reading the thread about this very monitor at LL. I have the very same problem mentioned in that thread, Monitor does not display reds, magentas properly. Sadly, the thread deteriorated and the original question remained unanswered.

Although to a lesser extent, Colour managed applications like CS4 and DPP are still affected.

You said that the factory presets are emulation modes so, I am reluctant to print anything. This is my first wide gamut monitor and I just don't know what to trust anymore.
Below system details (if that helps)
Intel Pentium quad core 2.6
Nvidia 9600Gt PCI Express card
8GB DDR2 Memory
LaCie 724 through DVI - I
Win 7 64 Ultimate
CS4, DPP, LR2.6
Firefox (CM enabled)

Any help will be very much apreciated.

Ok further in to my investigations I have come across this.


99% of PC, games and broadcast (TV, HDTV, DVD) are created in sRGB color space or ITU-R BT.709-5.

Without color management, this content is displayed in the native color space of your monitor. For sRGB monitors this matches. For wide gamut it does not. Each color space has a specific match for each color, shade, hue, etc to a specific RGB value. These associations are mapped differently for each color space. Because there is no conversion, the sRGB image looks oversaturated.

The solution is simple, Windows needs to implement a basic color management strategy at the OS level. It does not need to be complicated. Just mirror what Safari, Firefox 3 do by default. All untagged (images without color profiles) are treated as sRGB images. Images that are tagged are displayed matching their embedded profile. Problem solved.

Microsoft partially addressed the issue by making the built in Picture Viewer display tagged images correctly. You can use FF3 with the color management plug-in to turn it on and of course programs like Photoshop are color managed by default. But until MS addresses the issue globally it will be a problem in IE, your desktop or any other other program that does not have color management.

Right now the effect is not generally too distracting expect for skin tones but as the gamuts continue become wider (Dell is up 117%) its going to become bad enough that I think consumers will push for a change.

The end game is scRGB which actually exceeds the range of colors that human's can see but the RGB values for primaries still match so sRGB images ares till displayed correctly. The standard exists but we simply do not have the displays that can do it or the video bandwidth (Display Port 2 maybe).


Is this what I am experiencing?...Please help I have never been so confused in my entire life. It is driving me crazy.

Original source HERE


As an example and so that you guys can visualize what I have in front of me, here is an image I took on a my recent trip to Venice mask Carnival. The image is tagged sRGB and opened (from left to right) in Light room 2.6, Photoshop CS4, Apple image viewer, Nero image viewer, and windows image viewer.

Can you see the difference in all applications? More to the point, note the large colour shift differences between CS4 and LR... which one do I trust?

Ivan Garcia said:

Can you see the difference in all applications? More to the point, note the large colour shift differences between CS4 and LR... which one do I trust?

Click to expand...

Hi Ivan,

I'm not sure if it's the same in CS4 compared to my CS3, but have you set the proofing to your display profile, or at least to the monitor RGB setting?



It's the only way to estimate how things will look in a non-CM aware browser/viewer.

Cheers,
Bart

Ivan Garcia said:

Without color management, this content is displayed in the native color space of your monitor.

Click to expand...

A bit vague (some would say misleading). Just what is the native color space of said display? They are all different. That’s why we calibrate and profile them. Yes, if you have an sRGB gamut display (certainly a CRT with P22 phosphors which sRGB is based), your “native” display behavior is probably pretty close to sRGB and such files, outside ICC aware applications will look OK. That doesn’t mean they will match anyone else’s sRGB like device but it should be “close”. LCDs, at least most, are made to attempt to mimic this sRGB behavior so they should be close too. Until they and the other displays drift from their native behavior which all displays do.

For sRGB monitors this matches. For wide gamut it does not. Each color space has a specific match for each color, shade, hue, etc to a specific RGB value. These associations are mapped differently for each color space. Because there is no conversion, the sRGB image looks oversaturated.

Click to expand...

Right. That’s why some such wide gamut displays provide this sRGB emulation (which doesn’t work in ICC aware apps because they are not profiled for this behavior and it would be a moot point anyway, such applications just send the RGB numbers to the display).

The end game is scRGB which actually exceeds the range of colors that human's can see...

Click to expand...

It does? You sure? Sounds like ProPhoto RGB (there are primaries that fall outside CIE XYZ).

Thank you Bart that helps some, What rendering intent should I use? Perceptual, relative colorimetric or absolute colorimetric?

The question remains as to which software do I trust for printing, or at least, what proof set up should I use to estimate how it would look once printed.

Printer is a canon Pixma 9500 pro which has not been custom profiled. I use Canon papers and use the canned printing profiles that came with the printer for the given paper I am using.

With my previous monitor (Apple cinema HD 23) this set up worked well for me. The monitor died on me and because my photography is doing really well, I thought I splash out on this LaCie. I am beginning to regret the decision, it has been nothing but I huge headache so far.

Andrew Rodney said:

A bit vague (some would say misleading). Just what is the native color space of said display? They are all different. That’s why we calibrate and profile them. Yes, if you have an sRGB gamut display (certainly a CRT with P22 phosphors which sRGB is based), your “native” display behavior is probably pretty close to sRGB and such files, outside ICC aware applications will look OK. That doesn’t mean they will match anyone else’s sRGB like device but it should be “close”. LCDs, at least most, are made to attempt to mimic this sRGB behavior so they should be close too. Until they and the other displays drift from their native behavior which all displays do.




Right. That’s why some such wide gamut displays provide this sRGB emulation (which doesn’t work in ICC aware apps because they are not profiled for this behavior and it would be a moot point anyway, such applications just send the RGB numbers to the display).




It does? You sure? Sounds like ProPhoto RGB (there are primaries that fall outside CIE XYZ).

Click to expand...

Hi Andrew,
I respect your expertise and I don't want you to take this the wrong way. I am not an expert, and most of your expertise and technical known how would be beyond my current Colour management education.

I posted the quote because it explained what I am experiencing in layman's terms and it did make sense to me.

The questing I was asking when I posted the quote was if what he is describing relates to what I am experiencing with this monitor and if so, how do I set the different applications I am using to combat the problem at hand.

Any help you can provide me with (in layman's terms) to setup the monitor and my editing software so that I can trust them to make my prints will be much appreciated

[edit]
I forgot to say, I am planning to purchase a large format printer. Before I depart with thousands of British pounds ( the printers I am considering range from £10000 upwards) I want to make sure my setup is up to scratch.

I can’t explain your issues without sitting down and seeing what’s going on, the settings, getting more info about the system configuration (video card etc). I’ve got several NEC wide gamut displays, all is fine on this end. I worked with the P221W under Windows at a seminar I taught last year, again no issues. You may need to contact NEC.

Thank you Andrew,
My monitor is a LaCie, failing everything else I might contact them.

In the meantime, assuming everything is set to factory defaults, what simple starting setup should I use to send me towards the right path?

Regards
Ivan

Its always a good idea to set the display to a factory default prior to any calibration for the first time if someone has mucked around with the controls prior to this process.

I did that, not just with the monitor but with the graphics card too. Once everything was set to factory defaults, I followed the monitor instructions, calibrated with the bundled Blue eye pro proof software/hardware and set the monitor colour set up screen to "calibrated". As stated in the instruction manual.

But, as you can see from the picture I took, applications display the image with different renderings. This makes trusting which one has the correct rendering next to impossible.

Bart advice on CS4 proofing parameters have helped me to gauge how things will look in a non Colour managed browser, but I am still blind when it comes to printing.

Andrew, Like I said, I respect your expertise but, we are going around chasing our tails here.

What I need is Photoshop and Light room colour management and proof viewing parameters so that I can print with confidence.

To clarify, the monitor has a button which changes the colour rendering parameters.
The options are:

Custom- to be used with calibration software/ hardware other than the one bundled with the Monitor.

sRGB - this setting looks to me to be way off, but I am not an expert (Andrew states this mode is simulation)

RGB- this setting is the one which represent colours close to what I have previously experienced. (again Andrew states this is a simulation mode)

Emulation - the instruction manual is very vague about this mode. It looks overly saturated to me and so, I do not use it.

Calibrated- this is the default mode once you have calibrated the monitor with the bundled software hardware and is the set up LaCie recommends. This is my current setup.

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

It's the only way to estimate how things will look in a non-CM aware browser/viewer.

Click to expand...

Correct, but only on your display. Others not so much.

What rendering intent should I use? Perceptual, relative colorimetric or absolute colorimetric?

Click to expand...

Doesn’t matter, such profiles only have a Colorimetric table so you’re seeing Relative Colorimetric (absolute is the same table but adapts to the white, something you don’t want to pick).

Hi Andrew.
Thank you for the information about rendering intents, I have set this up as Relative Colorimetric.

During the course of my investigations I have come across this review of the Samsung XL 24. The LaCie 724 is the same monitor rebranded. I think the only difference (besides the name) is the later being bundled with a somewhat more powerful calibration software.

The reviewer was thorough and I learned some things about my particular monitor which could be of help to other users. Although it did not solve my problem, I recommend any one with this monitor to read it.

Andrew.
I will like to stress again the enormous respect I have for your expertise in this particular field. Still, I would hate to see this thread deteriorate like this one at LL forums did.

In that thread I learned some things about NEC monitors ...but nothing whatever about the monitor the original poster at LL forums and me use.

There are many Extreme Wide gamut monitor users out there who are experiencing similar situations.
If you have figured out how to tame these monitors and want to share your findings with us, we will, of course, be eternally grateful. But, I will respectfully ask you to refrain form engaging in lengthy technical explanations or discussions. Simple layman's terms is what we need here.

With kind regards

Ivan Garcia said:

There are many Extreme Wide gamut monitor users out there who are experiencing similar situations.
If you have figured out how to tame these monitors and want to share your findings with us, we will, of course, be eternally grateful.

Click to expand...

I’ve got three wide gamut displays, all NEC’s, no issues on Macs. I’ve worked with NEC P221W’s on Windows in a classroom, again, no issues.

I can’t speak about LaCie or Samsung’s nor explain these issues.

Thank you Andrew For the kind input.

I have now solved most of the problems. I have set CS4 to RGB Pro Photo, this has taken care of the colour sift between CS4 and LR. I have also created Custom profiles for the monitor's RGB and sRGB canned settings. This new custom sRGB/RGB settings are working very well for viewing images in none Colour Managed applications (IE and such). The full gamut calibration works a treat in Colour managed applications.

Is not a perfect set up as I would prefer not having to switch colour spaces to view internet pages. None the less, moving from one colour space to the next is as easy as pressing the colour button in the monitor front panel.

I am finally happy with my monitor.