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Crossing the Planckian locus

Damien Paul

New member
Hi,

In my studies, I have been using the horizon up to 'mid-sky' as my subject. I have taken the RGB components of selected pixels, transforming them into a CIE xy graph (amongst other graphs).

I have calculated the gamut for the series of dat points with 97% correlation, however, for chromticity values with a CCT less than about 6800K, an especially less than about 5500K, my data trends to the 'purple' side of the Planckian locus.

Researching this, I have found that it could be due to 'large' scale scattering and maybe due to the white balance of the camera. Does anyone have any insight as to why the data trends this way?
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi,

In my studies, I have been using the horizon up to 'mid-sky' as my subject. I have taken the RGB components of selected pixels, transforming them into a CIE xy graph (amongst other graphs).

I have calculated the gamut for the series of dat points with 97% correlation, however, for chromticity values with a CCT less than about 6800K, an especially less than about 5500K, my data trends to the 'purple' side of the Planckian locus.

Researching this, I have found that it could be due to 'large' scale scattering and maybe due to the white balance of the camera. Does anyone have any insight as to why the data trends this way?
Hi Damien,

Do you shoot jpg instead of raw? Only then the preset wb of the camera will put a weight on the balance of the Planckian locus. If one shoots raw, then this can be adjusted using the "tint" (green <-> magenta) slider in the raw converter. But I guess I am stating the obvious to you, lol.

Cheers,
 
Hi,

In my studies, I have been using the horizon up to 'mid-sky' as my subject. I have taken the RGB components of selected pixels, transforming them into a CIE xy graph (amongst other graphs).

Hi Damien,

Which RGB values do you use, at what stage of Raw conversion? The output of the Raw conversion process is subject to a lot of data 'massaging' to produce a pictorially pleasing compromise. One of the important ones is White Balancing which can produce results on either side of the Planckian locus in a chromaticity diagram, and on many positions along it.

For a more reliable measurement one should use a better instrument, a (calibrated) spectrophotometer, which takes a direct reading of the spectral composition (which will also take atmospheric effects, e.g. pollution, into consideration).

Cheers,
Bart
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Damien,

Hi,

In my studies, I have been using the horizon up to 'mid-sky' as my subject. I have taken the RGB components of selected pixels, transforming them into a CIE xy graph (amongst other graphs).

I have calculated the gamut for the series of dat points with 97% correlation, however, for chromaticity values with a CCT less than about 6800K, an especially less than about 5500K, my data trends to the 'purple' side of the Planckian locus.

You speak of a high degree of correlation of the data, but you don't say with what. But I take it from your follow-on comments that you must mean a general correlation with the Planckian locus.

But (as I'll discuss shortly) I don't find it at all curious that that correlation deteriorates (in the purple direction) toward the "higher temperature" end of the locus. What I find curious is that the correlation appears at all!

The obvious mechanism that would directly suggest that is that the light comes directly from blackbody luminous emitters of various temperatures.

But in fact, the source of all that light is one emitter (ol' Sol) and the reason we see different chromaticities at different angles of observation, or at different times of the day (different solar elevations), is a result of the "filter" effect of atmospheric phenomena, I think mainly scattering (if we discount smog and such).

I can't imagine any simple model of this that would suggest a chromaticity of the observed (filtered) light that would track the Planckian locus. (Perhaps you have some mechanism in mind you did not mention.)

As to the matter of much of the departure being in the purple direction, we are well aware that the scattering often moves the chromaticity of the light in that direction - the reason that, as we contemplate "daylight" from a cloudy situation, its CCT is higher than that of open sky daylight.

Just some thoughts.
 

Damien Paul

New member
Firstly, thank you for the replies - many questions i had (and then subsequently got since writing this post) have been answered.

Hi Damien,

Do you shoot jpg instead of raw? Only then the preset wb of the camera will put a weight on the balance of the Planckian locus. If one shoots raw, then this can be adjusted using the "tint" (green <-> magenta) slider in the raw converter. But I guess I am stating the obvious to you, lol.

Cheers,

I am shooting jpg - this information is good as it confirms something I suspected from my data.

Hi Damien,

Which RGB values do you use, at what stage of Raw conversion? The output of the Raw conversion process is subject to a lot of data 'massaging' to produce a pictorially pleasing compromise. One of the important ones is White Balancing which can produce results on either side of the Planckian locus in a chromaticity diagram, and on many positions along it.

For a more reliable measurement one should use a better instrument, a (calibrated) spectrophotometer, which takes a direct reading of the spectral composition (which will also take atmospheric effects, e.g. pollution, into consideration).

Cheers,
Bart

For my Masters, we are deliberately looking at a DSC as the tool of choice. The camera is stated as being sRGB - thankfulyl, I have found much literature to convert from device dependent sRGB to CIE XYZ (and into the many color spaces and metrics)

Hi, Damien,



You speak of a high degree of correlation of the data, but you don't say with what. But I take it from your follow-on comments that you must mean a general correlation with the Planckian locus.

But (as I'll discuss shortly) I don't find it at all curious that that correlation deteriorates (in the purple direction) toward the "higher temperature" end of the locus. What I find curious is that the correlation appears at all!

The obvious mechanism that would directly suggest that is that the light comes directly from blackbody luminous emitters of various temperatures.

But in fact, the source of all that light is one emitter (ol' Sol) and the reason we see different chromaticities at different angles of observation, or at different times of the day (different solar elevations), is a result of the "filter" effect of atmospheric phenomena, I think mainly scattering (if we discount smog and such).

I can't imagine any simple model of this that would suggest a chromaticity of the observed (filtered) light that would track the Planckian locus. (Perhaps you have some mechanism in mind you did not mention.)

As to the matter of much of the departure being in the purple direction, we are well aware that the scattering often moves the chromaticity of the light in that direction - the reason that, as we contemplate "daylight" from a cloudy situation, its CCT is higher than that of open sky daylight.

Just some thoughts.

I should clarify, the high corellation is to the line of best fit gamut passing through my data.

The corellation deteorates towards purple and red. I think scattering also.

I can't think of anything that matches the Planckian locus either (which was the next question ;) ) - I know of the Daylight locus and another one found for the skies over Granada - mine is similar, but given the difference in conditions Tokyo has over other places - I am not entirely surprised that it is different.

It never occurred to me that consideration is given to cloudy skies for that reason - even though it has been staring me in the face for a while - that happens to me all time - lol.

So, a summary of 3 major causes of 'purple' shifting could be summarised as:

1. White balance
2. Aerosol
3. Twilight

Am I correct here?

Once again, thank you very kindly for the replies, they have confirmed a number of notions I had and helped clarify a few more. I very much appreciate this.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Damien,

I should clarify, the high corellation is to the line of best fit gamut passing through my data.

The corellation deteorates towards purple and red. I think scattering also.
Are you speaking of correlation between the best fit curve through your data and the Planckian locus?

So, a summary of 3 major causes of 'purple' shifting could be summarised as:

1. White balance
2. Aerosol
3. Twilight

Am I correct here?
If by "shifting" you mean "away from the Planckian locus", again I yet see no reason to think that the locus of observed chromaticity would be expected to track the Planckian locus. Do you have in mind some mechanism that would suggest it would? I may be missing a hypothesis you are contemplating but have not yet mentioned.

It seems almost as if we are looking for an explanation as to why the heights of a number of adult subjects do not correlate well with their house numbers.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Damien Paul

New member
I am merely using the Planckian (as well as CIE Daylight and one from a study in Granada*) locus as a reference and wondering what mechanisms would make a color shift away from the Planckian (and indeed CIE Daylight) locus towards the purple for low CCTs...

* the Granada study is here.
 

Damien Paul

New member
I think I am failing to communicate properly - apologies for this, I am new to CM Theory. Nevermind.

I have found some more articles relating to the phenomena that I am seeking to clarify (adding to my 100+ bibliography - man, that builds up!). Alos I have found information relating to the hue angle and dominant wavelength question I was going to ask. I will figure it out (always do).

Thank you for your consideration and discussion
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Damien,

Alos I have found information relating to the hue angle and dominant wavelength question I was going to ask.
Good. See some discussion below.

I will figure it out (always do).
Indeed, and that is the attitude we both need to have!

I often find out that, in trying to "tune up" questions I am asking, the answer (or at least a step toward it) will come to me.

Don't be afraid to use us as the "bouncing wall" in that process - as the long-time members here know, I do it all the time. (I did it a little just this morning!)

Glad you are doing well on the matter of hue angle and dominant wavelength. These are of course two ways of quantifying the property of "hue" (a sub-property of chromaticity, in one way of "resolving" it).

Dominant wavelength has a definition that is inherent in our grasp of the spectral locus, but is dependent on an arbitrary definition of the "white point" (where do we start the line through the chromaticity of interest that we prolong until it intercepts the spectral locus?). And may also depend on the chromaticity plane we use (I'm not sure).

Hue angle of course is defined under some arbitrary convention, actually or in effect part of some particular color space (such as one of the L*C*H spaces). It is usually the angle of the chroma vector in the chroma plane from some arbitrary reference hue.

Let me know if you are having an trouble with chromaticity vs. chrominance vs. chroma.

I'm delighted to learn of your interests in all these areas.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Damien Paul

New member
well, I delved deeper into my data and once again answered my own questions - and my results are consistent with those other studies to some respects.
 

Damien Paul

New member
Have finally got hue angle and chroma under control (CIELCH) - now getting ahandle on the Abney and Bezold-Brucke effects.

The results are very compelling - I am getting closer and closer to completion of my MSc
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Damien,

Have finally got hue angle and chroma under control (CIELCH)
I had an advantage there in that my first exposure to color spaces was in the NTSC color TV format, which I actually studied in engineering school (Case 1953-1957) (I still have those two texts, among very few that a preserved).

That is of course a luma-chroma system, with the chroma looked at in Cartesian form (I and Q axes) but than, as would be the habit of electrical engineers anyway, also looked at in terms of magnitude and angle. Video system operators would observe the chroma signal on a "vector scope". which operated on a Cartesian basis, but which had a graticule calibrated in terms of magnitude and angle.

In any case, my outlook as an electrical engineer fitted me to constantly appreciate the duality between Cartesian and circular (rho-theta) coordinates.

The NTSC system, with different bandwidth for Y, I, and Q components, also gave me an early start in appreciating subsampling when that notion emerged.

- now getting a handle on the Abney and Bezold-Brucke effects.
Well, I don't even remember (if I ever knew) what those are!

The results are very compelling - I am getting closer and closer to completion of my MSc
That is great to hear!

Keep us up-to-date.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Damien Paul

New member
Well, now I have got my head around the Abney and Bezold-Brucke (BB) Effects, especially after writing to the authors of the papers that I am reading:

The Abney Effect is for a constant hue and luminance, it describes the apparant hue shift when the purity (or chroma) changes.

The BB Effect is for a constant hue and purity (chroma), it describes the apparant hue shift when luminance is changed.

In reality, both occur at the same time for most natural systems. The hue shift is not detected by instruments, but rather the human eye.

I have never heard of the Purkinje Effect, I will add it to my list of 'effects', an test to see if it is indeed occuring. But, if I understand it correctly, it is a gradual bluing of an object as luminance drops?
 
I have never heard of the Purkinje Effect, I will add it to my list of 'effects', an test to see if it is indeed occuring. But, if I understand it correctly, it is a gradual bluing of an object as luminance drops?

No, it's a shift in color(sensitivity) when the luminosity level changes. At lower levels there is a shift towards shorter wavelengths. Human vision at night is less sensitive to red than during the day. This is on top of the general loss of color sensitivity as the rods take over from the cones, it's a shift in peak spectral sensitivity.

Cheers,
Bart
 
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