Werner Gansz
New member
We have had a week of dramatic evening skies up here in northern New England. They almost have a tropical look to them.
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New England Dramatic Sky over Farmland. Developing the Final Image!
- Thread starter Werner Gansz
- Start date
We have had a week of dramatic evening skies up here in northern New England. They almost have a tropical look to them.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Werner,
Glad you jumped in. The sky is indeed dramatic. This is a good place to return to with different skies and light. I wondered if the building, even though it's dark could be better defined. Was this from a jpg?
Thanks for sharing!
Asher
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Werner,
Let me add some fussy points that nevertheless might be useful. It might be necessary to take several exposures to cover this huge dynamic range. There's likely much more detail in the lower tones than appear, an example would be the mid field bluish clouds which have areas of uniformity. It's hard to get detail here and in the brightest areas of the clouds where drama is at its peak. This is one case where a gradient ND filter might be helpful too. With clouds as impressive as these, it's a good idea to take adjacent overlapping images so that the entire form of each cloud can be shown. It's not necessary, just an idea to consider.
Asher
Let me add some fussy points that nevertheless might be useful. It might be necessary to take several exposures to cover this huge dynamic range. There's likely much more detail in the lower tones than appear, an example would be the mid field bluish clouds which have areas of uniformity. It's hard to get detail here and in the brightest areas of the clouds where drama is at its peak. This is one case where a gradient ND filter might be helpful too. With clouds as impressive as these, it's a good idea to take adjacent overlapping images so that the entire form of each cloud can be shown. It's not necessary, just an idea to consider.
Asher
Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
We have had a week of dramatic evening skies up here in northern New England. They almost have a tropical look to them.
Hi Werner,
Very nice. You obviously aimed to keep the highlight detail, which is of course the most important element you wanted to capture. However, it's a pitty that the darker areas suffered. It's not easy to capture both in a single shot, so some postprocessing is warranted IMO.
As Asher said, when in doubt or faced with such a spectacular scene, it may pay off later when you shoot multiple exposures. It'll give some material to experiment with.
However, when doing some special processing on your JPEG, which is of course limited as a basis for heavy processing, some interesting things can already be done:
I used SNS-HDR to do some tonemapping, and I tried to restrain the detail creation in the highlights (it's already quite dramatic, no need to overdo it too much), and lighten up the greens/shadows in the foreground. I think it gives a more balanced view of the scene, although the settings one chooses are of course a matter of taste as well.
Just something to think about.
Cheers,
Bart
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Well, Werner,
Your pictures is not only arresting as I first thought but has magnificent cloud detail and color too that was there all the time even in your sRGB file processed for the internet! I think I'm pretty adept with post-processing. Well, Bart is 10 steps ahead and generous in his help! But I'm saying the obvious again!
This restrained tone mapping is so remarkable that I'm in awe! I tried CS4 shadow highlight tool and couldn't retain color in the building, it became metallic grey! I said to myself, this might be a prime example where sRGB simply lacks the information to allow smooth alterations. Well I'm glad you proved me so wrong. I am impressed by SNS-HDR's capability of retaining color saturation and also revealing structure that otherwise is hidden by the darkness.
Without SNS-HDR, how might a similar result be obtained in Photoshop?
In awe!
Asher
Your pictures is not only arresting as I first thought but has magnificent cloud detail and color too that was there all the time even in your sRGB file processed for the internet! I think I'm pretty adept with post-processing. Well, Bart is 10 steps ahead and generous in his help! But I'm saying the obvious again!
This restrained tone mapping is so remarkable that I'm in awe! I tried CS4 shadow highlight tool and couldn't retain color in the building, it became metallic grey! I said to myself, this might be a prime example where sRGB simply lacks the information to allow smooth alterations. Well I'm glad you proved me so wrong. I am impressed by SNS-HDR's capability of retaining color saturation and also revealing structure that otherwise is hidden by the darkness.
Without SNS-HDR, how might a similar result be obtained in Photoshop?
In awe!
Asher
Werner Gansz
New member
Reworked Vermont Sky
Asher, Bart; Thank you for your comments. This was indeed taken in raw with 3 exposures with a Nikon D90. You are both correct that I favored the sky and allowed the ground and barn to go dark. I purposely put the barn in a far corner and left it dark because I didn't want this to be a picture of a barn. I simply wanted the barn to provide a sense of place. However, what I realize now is that processing it as I did made it look like a poorly exposed photograph and that was not the intent either.
My D90 gets about 8 EV of dynamic range at base ISO. The +/- 2 EV raw files show about an additional 1 EV on either side of the middle exposure so the total range is approximately 10 EV or a bit more. The blended exposure has no blown highlights in any color so I had the full range to work with. In this reworked version I think I extracted additional detail in the darker clouds and the tree line without resorting to tonemapping (although one could argue that masking is just another form of tonemapping).
I agree with both of you that the very dark trees and barn were not useful. Looking at this version I think the barn still stays in the background. I tried cropping the RV out of the lower right but then the ramp runs right into the border. I didn't think that looked right but I'd like your opinions on that. Also, I suppose I could clone it out.
regards, and thank you again,
Werner
Asher, Bart; Thank you for your comments. This was indeed taken in raw with 3 exposures with a Nikon D90. You are both correct that I favored the sky and allowed the ground and barn to go dark. I purposely put the barn in a far corner and left it dark because I didn't want this to be a picture of a barn. I simply wanted the barn to provide a sense of place. However, what I realize now is that processing it as I did made it look like a poorly exposed photograph and that was not the intent either.
My D90 gets about 8 EV of dynamic range at base ISO. The +/- 2 EV raw files show about an additional 1 EV on either side of the middle exposure so the total range is approximately 10 EV or a bit more. The blended exposure has no blown highlights in any color so I had the full range to work with. In this reworked version I think I extracted additional detail in the darker clouds and the tree line without resorting to tonemapping (although one could argue that masking is just another form of tonemapping).
I agree with both of you that the very dark trees and barn were not useful. Looking at this version I think the barn still stays in the background. I tried cropping the RV out of the lower right but then the ramp runs right into the border. I didn't think that looked right but I'd like your opinions on that. Also, I suppose I could clone it out.
regards, and thank you again,
Werner
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Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I knew it, Werner!
This is more like it! Don't worry about the barn, it can't possibly steal the show from the dramatic sky. yes the SUV might best go. I'd still like you to explore the software that Bart suggests now that we know you have more than enough data as your giant resource for this worthy image.
To me, the clouds are subjects. So I like to have all of a formation in the pictures. You already have one amazing white cloud in the lower left mid zone. The giant cloud to the upper right, however, has form behind and below the dark streaking intrusion from the right. Similarly on the left. Having not gotten images a little to the left and right, I'd now see whether one could selectively enhance an agreeable set of cloud parts of each white mass so it appears as if these structures are pretty well in the field.
So impressed!
Asher
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
This new thread was derived with Werner's consent from the discussion here. Since Werner has 3 RAW files bracketing the scene, there are further possible ways of exploring the development of this high dynamic range scene. This is then worthy of its own space.
Bart_van_der_Wolf
pro member
That would be very hard, but it would at least take a lot of masking and luminosity dodging and burning and blending. Some high pass filtering to augment certain levels of detail would also be required.
With SNS-HDR it's relatively simple, even though it's still being developed further and there are some weak areas. Sebastian is a skilled programmer, so the future looks bright (or should I say 'tonemapped'). Just another tool in the toolbox.
Cheers,
Bart
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Sebastian Nibisz
New member
Hi Werner,
Is it possible you might make available to me the RAW files so I can try out the processing of your clouds. I'm the developer of SNS-HDR!
Sebastian
Is it possible you might make available to me the RAW files so I can try out the processing of your clouds. I'm the developer of SNS-HDR!
Sebastian
Werner Gansz
New member
Hello Sebastian, The files can certainly be made available however my only online image repository is a basic SmugMug subscription which does not deal with raw files. I doubt email would work even one-file-at-a-time. They are Nikon NEFs, each is about 12 MB. Also note that they were taken hand-held and have to be aligned before blending.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Perfect challenge then! Sebastian's software auto-aligns making the needed translations for slight differences in rotation etc. Send the RAW files using http://yousendit.com The service is free. However you amy have to send one file at a time. Alternatively, I can send you a link to upload to my yousendit.com account!
Asher
Werner Gansz
New member
I see a "Try It Now" box on the yousendit page so I guess all I need is one or more email addresses to send them to.
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I have just sent you a link to my drop box in yousenditcom and you can add as many files you like up to 2GB, LOL!
Just tell me who I can send it to.
Reminder, all derivatives of images edited for another photographer on OPF remain the © property of the original photographer as , in return for the privilege of the fun and experience working with a challenging file, we consign and permanently transfer any new creative rights to the original © holder. When a file is edited, please retain a full copy of your photoshop file with layers for the original photographer.
Thanks,
Asher
Just tell me who I can send it to.
Reminder, all derivatives of images edited for another photographer on OPF remain the © property of the original photographer as , in return for the privilege of the fun and experience working with a challenging file, we consign and permanently transfer any new creative rights to the original © holder. When a file is edited, please retain a full copy of your photoshop file with layers for the original photographer.
Thanks,
Asher
Sebastian Nibisz
New member
Thank you for RAW files.
Here is my proposal (processing in SNS-HDR Pro 1.2.0)
Regards
Here is my proposal (processing in SNS-HDR Pro 1.2.0)
Regards
Dr Klaus Schmitt
Well-known member
Now THAT I call a massive improvement! Congratulations, also looks quite natural (which HDR very often does not...)
Werner Gansz
New member
Thank you Sebastion,
I also tried a tonemapped version with Photomatix Lite. This version highlighted some problems with my reworked exposure blend above, mainly the blue color cast in the lower clouds and some artificial looking light variations in the trees and maybe some halos around the trees. However, my tonemapped version has problems of its own. The highlights in the clouds in the upper right lack detail yet they are not blown in the raw file, or the exposure blends. I haven't found the slider to fix that. The local contrast in the clouds is still unnaturally strong. For me this version crosses the very fuzzy line between camera art and computer art. I am hardly an expert on tonemapping so this version does not represent a limitation of the process, only a limitation of the processor.
Tonemapped in Photomatix
Since the tonemapped version highlighted some problems in the exposure blended version I took another shot at exposure blending, this time using TuFuse. TuFuse lets me see the process better and its weighting curves are more intuitive for me.
TuFuse exposure blend
I also tried a tonemapped version with Photomatix Lite. This version highlighted some problems with my reworked exposure blend above, mainly the blue color cast in the lower clouds and some artificial looking light variations in the trees and maybe some halos around the trees. However, my tonemapped version has problems of its own. The highlights in the clouds in the upper right lack detail yet they are not blown in the raw file, or the exposure blends. I haven't found the slider to fix that. The local contrast in the clouds is still unnaturally strong. For me this version crosses the very fuzzy line between camera art and computer art. I am hardly an expert on tonemapping so this version does not represent a limitation of the process, only a limitation of the processor.
Tonemapped in Photomatix
Since the tonemapped version highlighted some problems in the exposure blended version I took another shot at exposure blending, this time using TuFuse. TuFuse lets me see the process better and its weighting curves are more intuitive for me.
TuFuse exposure blend
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Sebastian,
This is an amazing transformation. The picture is arresting and magnetic. We are fascinated and drawn in. To me this is the most remarkable transformation I have seen, as yet, and only one person's attempt at expression. Here we see the immense power of beauty in the sky. So many minute details of balance and argument. It's one of of nature's gifts. It's not just the sky here. It's our inheritance and treasure in this fragile planet.
But in all this intensity, there's an easy danger. This is not a paintbrush to use equally on everything. I hope we use this, like fire, very cautiously. If overused, it likely will be destructive! How this tool is used will depend on the discipline and care of the photographer. Here, however, SNS-HDR has been used well. The dramatic sky is the subject, after all!
One tiny, but I feel important, suggestion worth considering:
Can we soften the edge of the white clouds in the mid-zone so it they not so separated from the sky around them. I think we need to pull back on edges and allow the mind to create the boundaries where they are extreme, from form to no form, like this.
Asher
Werner Gansz
New member
I'm sorry but this is not what I envisioned when I posted here. These things are grunge; grotesque computer-generated cartoons. Please take my name off those images.
Good bye,
Werner
Good bye,
Werner
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Klaus,
It's a huge challenge to edit anyone else's work. We can make some improvements that work. Others might destroy the essence of the image that's needed to fulfill the needs and intent of the author. Here, I feel good that, at least at this point, the group has cooperated and made processing contributions that please you. Nothing that anyone else does replaces Werner's own hand using that technique as the final retouches are iterative and depend only on how he looks at this.
Werner,
Thanks for providing for Sebastian with 3 RAW images of your photoshoot and allowing us to go this far! I personally have learned a lot. This is a fascinating picture with a lot of interpretation possible.
Asher
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John Angulat
pro member
Sorry, but am I the only one confused here?
Werner, the thread originator and image owner, just posted a reply this morning expressing his profound displeasure with the image editing results. That post is no longer here.
Asher, your reply seems to confuse Klaus with Werner. Why is Klaus being thanked "for allowing us to go this far"?
... I'm confused...
Sebastian Nibisz
New member
It remains to respecting the wishes of the author and finish this topic.
Regards,
Sebastian
Regards,
Sebastian
Asher Kelman
OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
QUOTE=John Angulat;100847]Sorry, but am I the only one confused here?
Werner, the thread originator and image owner, just posted a reply this morning expressing his profound displeasure with the image editing results. That post is no longer here.
Asher, your reply seems to confuse Klaus with Werner. Why is Klaus being thanked "for allowing us to go this far"?
... I'm confused...[/QUOTE]
John,
Yes, I did make that very mistake! Attribute it to my distractions and a brain short-circuit, LOL! I corrected my comments. Thanks for pointing that out! Still, it's simple what I did! To deal with Werner's feelings, I immediately moved away, new versions after the point where Werner thanked Sebastian. I assumed that that first SNS-HDR offering was therefore worth keeping. Werner's last post is now back in place. Editing someone else's work is always a risk. Some changes that seem obviously beneficial to us. These do indeed please the original photographer too. We're all happy and learn from it. Other offerings badly might miss their mark entirely! That's what appears to have occurred here. It can't be that we are right every time!
Let me quote from my use warning above to post-processing here with HDR and in general:
Yes, feelings were hurt, but not out of any disrespect, just accidental. We asked at every step of the way. The files were provided freely. Sebastian kindly agreed, at my request, to look at Werner's interesting picture. Werner generously provided the files and and Sebastian made his offering and was immediately thanked by Werner. I thought everything was so fine!
Thanks everyone for daring to take up this picture. Don't be at all discouraged.
So the challenge remans to use tone-mappng and other such tools delicately.
Asher
Werner, the thread originator and image owner, just posted a reply this morning expressing his profound displeasure with the image editing results. That post is no longer here.
Asher, your reply seems to confuse Klaus with Werner. Why is Klaus being thanked "for allowing us to go this far"?
... I'm confused...[/QUOTE]
John,
Yes, I did make that very mistake! Attribute it to my distractions and a brain short-circuit, LOL! I corrected my comments. Thanks for pointing that out! Still, it's simple what I did! To deal with Werner's feelings, I immediately moved away, new versions after the point where Werner thanked Sebastian. I assumed that that first SNS-HDR offering was therefore worth keeping. Werner's last post is now back in place. Editing someone else's work is always a risk. Some changes that seem obviously beneficial to us. These do indeed please the original photographer too. We're all happy and learn from it. Other offerings badly might miss their mark entirely! That's what appears to have occurred here. It can't be that we are right every time!
Let me quote from my use warning above to post-processing here with HDR and in general:
Yes, feelings were hurt, but not out of any disrespect, just accidental. We asked at every step of the way. The files were provided freely. Sebastian kindly agreed, at my request, to look at Werner's interesting picture. Werner generously provided the files and and Sebastian made his offering and was immediately thanked by Werner. I thought everything was so fine!
Thanks everyone for daring to take up this picture. Don't be at all discouraged.
So the challenge remans to use tone-mappng and other such tools delicately.
Asher