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  • Welcome to the new site. Here's a thread about the update where you can post your feedback, ask questions or spot those nasty bugs!

Camset file changes actuations

dhphoto

New member
Guys,

I purchased a new 1D2N last week, then loaded on some personal functions from a different 1DIIN.

This had the effect of changing the owner, but more significantly, it changed the actuation count - my week old camera had 83,000+ actuations!

This can work both ways, so someone unscrupulous can sell you a camera adjusted downwards too.

If anyone has a nearly new 1DIIN and would be prepared to send me a camset_d file to lower MY count again, I'd be grateful

David
p.s. 1DII files aren't interchangeable with 1DIIN files
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
dhphoto said:
Guys,

I purchased a new 1D2N last week, then loaded on some personal functions from a different 1DIIN.


If anyone has a nearly new 1DIIN and would be prepared to send me a camset_d file to lower MY count again, I'd be grateful

David
p.s. 1DII files aren't interchangeable with 1DIIN files


David,

Does it transfer the serial number of the camera? How long does it take to get the file. It would seem you could just go into a camera store with an SD card and then download that file from the camera, or do you have to hook it up to your computer? Maybe Chuck could answer this question.

Asher
 

dhphoto

New member
No, in DPP it is still the original serial, in the EXif reader I 'm using it seems a different number, but that could be in code

David
 

dhphoto

New member
I tried loading a camset_d.csd file from a kindly fellow owner and, hey-presto, I suddenly done 70,000 less exposures!

A BIG Canon cock-up IMHO

David
 
The only thing that this episode shows is that software applications that purport to provide an accurate actuation count based on image metadata don't work. Rest assured that Canon Factory Service can determine the correct actuation count directly from the camera regardless of any attempt to reset it.

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Director/Media & Customer Relationship
Camera Marketing Group/Canon U.S.A., Inc.
 

Diane Fields

New member
I had an odd incident with a 5D this past month. I rolled over a 10,000 and started with 00xx again, and suddenly the next thing I knew it was recording in the 9,994 range again. Mine is set to continuous and I checked that. Still not sure what precipitated it, but now I have the same file numbers within a week of each other. I had not done a firmware upgrade at that time--and wonder if this was a bug with the old one. I vaguely remember seeing something about 'fixing' something with high number files. I've since installed the current firmware to fix the 'bug' with the STE2 and guess I'll never know why this occurred.

Since I anticipate keeping this cam until the thing falls apart LOL, whether adding a newer body or not--it doesn't really matter--except for the duplicate file numbers so close in time to each other.

Diane
 

dhphoto

New member
Chuck Westfall(Canon USA) said:
The only thing that this episode shows is that software applications that purport to provide an accurate actuation count based on image metadata don't work. Rest assured that Canon Factory Service can determine the correct actuation count directly from the camera regardless of any attempt to reset it.

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Director/Media & Customer Relationship
Camera Marketing Group/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

Well yes, but many a 1-series sale has been clinched because the 'mileage' has been sufficiently low as shown by the Exif or Exif extracting software. This is a glitch in the Canon software at the very least - after all it is changing the name of the owner as well as the actuations.

I don't think I'd tend to dismiss it quite so lightly

David
 

Jack Joseph Jr

New member
Glitch indeed.

My second 1D Mark II showed about 18,000 more shots than the actual count. Oddly enough my other 1D Mark II body had about 18,000 shots on it when I received the second on. I must have inserted a CF card without clearing it. Whether Canon can see the difference I don't know. The camera shouldn't show the wrong actual count.

C.F. "The only thing that this episode shows is that software applications that purport to provide an accurate actuation count based on image metadata don't work."

Then where does Adobe Info get the wrong number? Why would one body record a actual shutter count number from another body while swapping CF cards but yet the "real" number is still in there for Canon to see? It doesn't seem to make sense.
 

Ray West

New member
Hi David,

Exactly which software did you use to load in the original information, and which do you use to see the actual number of shots taken? afaik, dpp (via eos utility) shows the name of the owner, serial number, firmware version, but not the number of actuations, (thats for a non pro 20D, however).

If It is Canon software that is at fault, that is one thing, if its some third party software, that's another, I guess.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

dhphoto

New member
It's in the Exif (as shown by any Exif reader) and also confirmed by the the (reputable) software from www.soens.de, the owner of which has confirmed the problem exists. I'm really not making it up!

The file was simply transferred from another 1D2N user by saving in camera and transferring to a new CF card and then loading. Canon even suggest this!

The owners name and the actuations changed every time

David
 

Ray West

New member
Hi David,

I know you are not making it up, but I believe exif information is proprietory. If Canon have specified that that data is the actual shutter operations from new, then I think they could be blamed for that. However, if its a piece of data that some third part software reads and says it is actual shutter operations, then the third party is to blame. If you have used non canon software to do things, well you are on your own. Its not just canon, its not just cameras, nor just software.

Like many things, where there are no standards, things get accepted as the norm, and then it gets messy when something doesn't behave as it used to. There is no answer in a developing situation, unless there is a strong commercial reason for one - think cd's, vhs/betamax, whatever.

Using anything from canon, can you set or read the exif data concerning 'shots taken', other than in the camera re frame numbering, which I guess is not the same thing?

The fault is probably with soens.de, probably assuming something that was not quite true, unless someone is aware of something else.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Ray West

New member
Sorry David,

I misread part of your earlier reply. I think my reply applies to actuations - I have not seen any canon software that gives that information.

wrt the name, canon do report that, but that can be changed by other canon means. I guess that leaves the serial number, does that get changed?

I actually agree with you re its not too clever, but until or unless canon sales get damaged, or gov. legislation steps in, they will still play the 'we are Gods' card.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

dhphoto

New member
Thank you for the replies.

Whether or not it is 'proprietory' is neither here nor there in my opinion. People have learned to rely on Exif data and specialist programs in the absence of anything better from Canon to show them the frame counts on 1-series cameras - it isn't a new thing as you will know.

However it is clearly very easy to fool the camera, and that will mean less scrupulous sellers selling on worn out cameras with apparently low mileage. I think it is important that both Canon and the community know they simply cannot trust the actuations on a 1D2N under ANY circumstances - short of a trip to Canon.

The fact that the owners name is transferred smacks of poor programming, as does the whole episode, Mr Westfall's relatively dismissive reply does neither him nor Canon much credit IMHO. As for me, I'm getting a replacement camera, which I will be VERY careful with

David
 

Stan Jirman

New member
I have reported this to Chuck in a private email a while ago, not wanting to post it because I figured that rampant abuse would ensue. I guess it was just a question of time until someone else were to make such a discovery and report it.

In my email to Chuck I assumed it was a software bug and that they should fix it in an update. Indeed Chuck was not surprised at all and I got pretty much teh same response as here on the board. Given that it takes $200 for Canon to even look at a camera, I doubt that many people will send the camera to Canon to verify the actuation count.

I have never claimed that my two 1Ds's to have a low mileage, but you bet now that it's out quite a few people will :(
 

Ray West

New member
Stan,

The only time that any manufacturer will do anything for _you_ or _me_ or _any of us_ is when 'rampant abuse' takes place, and they are forced into some corrective action. If folk rely on settings that can be changed, then bigger fool them. If a campaign was mounted, say taking on canon first, to be open about such things, else we don't buy, then pick on Nikon next, say, then maybe we'd get some results. Talking to Chuck, or any representative, you'll just get the company line - one customer doesn't matter... but get a couple of continent's worth, maybe something happens. If its a general conception that exif information is correct, then it certainly needs publicity that it is not correct. If there is documentation from canon or some other company that says this, and its proven that it is not so, then the guys in usa can probably take out a class action, as with epson ink and cf memory cards, etc.

However, in this particular case, I do not think canon has said anything much about the exif info. If they had, then they are stuck, (like qwerty keyboard layout) in a time stamped design, a few years down the road. Just because the 20d uses the 1230th entry for the owner's name. doesn't mean that the 400d should do the same, or even every 400d should do the same - it could be encripted with the serial number for example.

My argument would be with the software companies or others who have put about the fact that they can derive the information, etc., after reverse engineering the exif info. In fact, I expect canon will deliberately screw it up, until it is sorted out as to 'who' actually owns 'what' in the camera. (see the thread re. iso numbers, and others on opf and elsewhere, for example.)

Do you buy the whole camera?. Is its internal firmware licenced, or sold to you? Why do you think its licenced? You buy a car, with computer controlled engine? What happens there? You sell a picture, but don't want folk to copy it, or alter it. What's the difference?

It is a commercial enterprise. If canon could make more money out of selling knitting machines, say, they would do that. There is _no_ loyalty to the customer, unless you are able to spend money. It may be sad, but I fail to see how you can expect anything else, in a consumer/marketting driven world.

Canon, other co's big fear is of India/China/wherever, reverse engineering their stuff. The easy way of overcoming that, is to move fast. The IS lens you buy today, will be replaced with a new version in 18months, before the existing, already five years old technology can be reverse engineered, and sold for its component value. They hype up the brand, latch you into canon, sony, nikon, whoever, and each time you upgrade, you have to buy stuff you needn't, like batteries, remotes, etc., all cash from your pockets into theirs.

You need to understand that, it is almost theft, or is it good business? Depends if you're buying or selling. I wonder why canon got more more money than me?

I think I'd better shut up...

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Stan Jirman

New member
That was a long response :)

All I meant to say is: It could have been just a honest bug that can be fixed. A possible outcome would have been a response like "oh really? Good to know" or so. You know, like when you get to the car dealer with an airbag warning light on and you are of course the first person EVER to report this. The moment Chuck told me that it's known I knew that nothing will be done about it, and that's fine. I don't have an issue with it. I just know that some (many) people use this info and so I didn't want to burst the bubble earlier than needed. I don't think this original post was needed and that it did more harm than good, but again, sooner or later someone would have said it.

I use the actuation counter to find out how many images I shot on a trip, since in the 1Ds2 I can't rely on the file numbering despite the newest firmwares :)

I like Chuck, and he does provide some good info. I also understand about being on a corporate leash. I understand it very well, as a matter of fact :)
 

Jack Joseph Jr

New member
Canon Software

So the suggestion is that Canon has hidden the actuation data like they hide other shooting data and that third party software incorrectly decodes it in same same error-prone manner that WB is incorrectly "guessed" at.

If so, in the case of my #2 1D2 picking up data from my #1 1D2 such that Adobe Info shows the wrong data what is the purpose of that incorrect data being added to CR2 files? Adobe Info was able to give an accurate sounding number for the actuations of camera #1. Yet the figure for #2 was always accurate + the 18,000 or so actuations that were on #1 when #2 arrived. I too used Canon's CF card method for saving the camera configuration.

And it's not Canon's fault (or better put responsibility) to keep users from falling prey to their encription secrecy? When Canon produces pro-quality, usable software that really lives up to the Canon reputation I'll forgive the secrecy. Until then we have to rely on third-party software. Note that the current version of DPP's info panel doesn't even list the shooting mode, let alone WB correction. For that one has to use the almost unusable RIT.
 

dhphoto

New member
Stan Jirman said:
That was a long response :)
I don't think this original post was needed and that it did more harm than good, but again, sooner or later someone would have said it.

You are entitled to your opinion

Personally, and in the spirit of the larger photographic community I felt it was more important that owners of very expensive professional cameras were given a heads-up on what might well be going to happen to them

If the sysop doesn't like the post he can delete it

David
 

Ray West

New member
I said I'd shut up, but that was last night - I guess I fibbed.

I think the sensible thing, which would not cost canon anything, would be for them to declare that the meta data is proprietory, and used internally by canon and its software, and may be changed at any time, without notice. I expect they say something along those lines, anyway. The third party software folk, should say the same - I expect they do, but if they made a song and dance about it, nobody would buy(er... rent?? their software).

Now, since these devices have microprocessors in them, why not have it so that after a few thousand actuations it locks up, has to be replaced by a new model, or at least go in for an expensive service. Of course, its not going to happen? Sorry, it already does, more or less, with other devices.

Digital is going to be an expensive ride, if you let it be.

Not cost canon anything..., of course it would. their competitors, while doing the same sort of thing in secret would make mileage out of it.

Best wishes,

Ray
 

dhphoto

New member
Stan Jirman said:
Thank you.


Well it's out there now, isn't it. Deleting the post now would be somewhat pointless.

It has so far been viewed 168 times, probably mostly by the same few people, if you're concerned about it being made public I don't think I've hit the front page of a National Daily just yet

Please feel free to delete it if you want

David
 
Please don't delete this thread.
I was not aware that the actuation count that is visible in PS CS2 from my 1DsMkII shots maybe able to be changed based on if it can be changed for one camera it can be changed for others.

I had been under the impression that what I saw there would be an accurate representation of the number of shutter activations as I know my file numbers in no way represent how many shots I have taken with my camera. I had based this on the premise that this info block could not be changed (at least not so easily) and came from a hardwired counter. Apparently not.

I also know several others who use that as a basis for buying a used camera versus price so this information is important.

Now if Canon has a second method of count determination that can not be changed or I presume read by software then great, but as mentioned unless my camera happened to be going in for a check up anyway, there is no way I would send the camera in just for an actuation count nor would I be likely to ask for that to be done just to confirm before purchase.

The count from PS CS2 seems to be accurate; although slightly less then my rough count, but not by much (less then 3% difference). But then I got my camera new and only I have used it.

This is important to me for two reasons.
1. I want to know when I get to the likely shutter failure point so I can budget for a replacement.
2. I may due to my budget have to get a used 1DsMkII as I really want a second 1-series as backup versus my now ancient 10D.
 

dhphoto

New member
Tim, I completely agree

The fact that almost everyone here and at Canon doesn't seem to give a damn about it is disconcerting - certainly not the replies I expected.

Having contacted Canon their response was basically - its not our software thats being used so its not a Canon problem - Might have something to do with Canon charging punters for an accurate actuation count perhaps?

David
 

Ray West

New member
Dave,

It doesn't matter how many here give a damn about it, its a question of what do the few? of us who do give a damn, want to do about, are capable of doing, about it.

Rest assured, no large business will want to do anything that may cost them money. However, if they see 'not doing something' may cost them , then they may do something to limit financial loss. I would think canon are not much concerned by a few folk wanting access to camera actuation figures for free.

I think the above is a basic summary. Do you want to form an action group? Get all canon users to make the point? Will canon sell more cameras if they do as we request?

So, I think it is down to individuals to organise themselves. This happens easier in USA, afaik, but even then, as an example, when it was proven that CF cards do not contain the memory as advertised, it was only the USA customers that had redress, such is the nature of multi-national companies.

In the immediate future, I think the best thing to do is remember this, tell everyone you know, publicise it on all the user groups you can, so on and so forth, and when it comes to buying your next camera, maybe you will factor it into your decision on camera purchase. Now, it is unlikely, if you have a canon pro camera with a load of lenses, you will change brand because of this one problem, but if you are buying point and shoots, or recommending point and shoots to others, in particular youngsters starting out, you can explain the way in which canon handle serious requests for information on their pro range, and it is likely that they will get less help for p&S cameras.

Use the tools you have, the internet, the user groups, the schools, the youth clubs, wherever folk may be about to buy a camera. You have the power, if you want to take it on.

For Tim's information, afaik, threads are not deleted on opf. In fact we are trying to sort out how to highlight/warn folk of misconceptions, problem areas such as this in a more permanent way.

The other, important, legal aspect - how much of your camera do you own? Does it make you happy?

Best wishes,

Ray

(fwiw, I have nothing personal, specifically against canon, or its representatives, I am merely putting forward my view as how many large companies function, behind a pretence of customer care. It just happened that it was canon actuations being discussed here, not Dunlop tyres, LG electronics, Nikon, or any other company.)
 
As has been stated more verbosely, Canon do not care about the resale market - perhaps only so far as it frees up someone to buy a new unit - and they have no motivation to correct this kind of design flaw.

As for the questions about buying a used camera and licensing firmware; In many countries - the UK included - this is a grey area. The firmware is considered an integral part of the functioning of the unit and so cannot be restricted from resale with the main unit. Unbundling the two is somewhat different, as is reverse engineering etc. Note that "clean room" reverse engineering is explicitly allowed under UK and EU laws, regardless of license agreements imposed by suppliers.
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Peter,

EU law, I forget that sometimes. Makes it a whole different ball game. Do you know much about it, by chance? I think it is best we keep quiet, for the moment, maybe pm's.

Best wishes,

Ray
 
I am not an expert or a professional in any legal area, just an interested party. There are many readable books especially on IP (Intellectual Property, not Internet Protocol) out there, and it is good for everyone to know about this, especially in the industries we deal in.

Certainly much of recent UK law is influenced by EU driven policies. We would not have any of the Data Protection or recycling, environmental, discrimination or even many financial laws of the last 20 years if it was not for the EU requiring it. Sad, but true.
 
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