Getting a MF system now without waiting for Pentax or the Hy6!

Instead of waiting for new to appear, what about going with used tried and true?

Leonardo already had a Mamiya body and lenses. So all he needed was a back.

For others who have no such investment (I still am using a Bronica for MF), I have a simple question?

What MF systems are repairable now and likely for the next several years?

Proven backs new or used are available. So are used Contax or H1 and H2 bodies.

Which bodies would be best?

Not the best possibe, just to have an excellent system.

No matter what the companies say, at least 50% is "vapor talk" by an ever shifting set of alliances!

So to me at least, what is the current status of repair experience with Contax and H2 the rest is all hypotheticals apart from the H3.

Asher

Hi Asher,

I think that the way you are thinking is practical and cost effective. Since I did some research on the subject maybe I can help.

I think that using a system that has existing lenses and bodies in the second market as a platform for a digital back is a good way to go.

First you have adapt the system to your field

Fashion = Rollei / V mount / H1-2
Studio = RZ Fuji / 6 x 8 / Sinar
Lower budget = 645 AFD

Some photographers can't get near a system with slow flash synchronization, in this case the better options are Rollei and the RZ (all RZ lenses are leaf and sync at 4/400 or 1/500 (don't remember))

If I did people a lot I would get the V mont Hasselblad, probably the system with the most options in available preowned lenses.

On the other side, there are tons of Mamiya 645 AFD's at really good prices, and so are the AF lenses.

The advantage of the AFD is that, according to my dealer --he also sells all other mayor brands-- the most communication between any back camera combination occurs with the Mamiya 645.

The good thing of digital backs is that you can buy a Mamiya-to-Horseman (for example) adapter, and use a 28mm shift/tilt lens for landscape/architecture/interior applications, -- or get the back and the Horsman as only body too --

For me now that stage is over and I have to begin payments of my back (the camera and 150mm, 80mm and 45mm I traded some time ago for most of my 4x5, 8x10 and RZ equipment)

I am Building a Hassey V system for my self slowly, at mooment only have certain parts, a body ,a couple of backs ,a wlf and some other small stuff next money on Lens or more than one?
I gone with this system since I feel there will enough parts out there for a while if the hassey needs repairing or I wish to update it with different Equipment? since this should hold me thru whats left for me in my life in time!

I see the biggest issue with buyng into an old system being future development of glass -- the MF sensors are really 1.2x crops from 645 film, so you can't get quite as wide as you did with film.

Hassy is coming out with a 28 (for an effective 21mm or so) for the H3D, but it will only work on that camera and is not backwards compatible with their own H1/H2. Not to mention the back is dedicated and cannot be used on anything else. Fact is, a closed MF system is nothing more than an oversized DSLR. To me, that type of marketing arrogance by the new Hasselblad, showing ZERO loyalty to their existing customers, is enough to make me take my business elsewhere -- and in that small way I am telling Hassy to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Unfortunately, I shoot landscapes and need good wideangle and shift and tilt lens solutions. Contax and Mamiya have a 35 which is about an effective 27 and maybe I could live with that, but I'd still want shifts and tilts. Right now the best solution for movement seems to be mounting the back on a view or specialized camera -- again requiring a non-closed system... Personally, I will wait for the Hy6 as I don't think it's vaporware. No 28, but Rollei does have a killer shift lens and I can mount the back on my Arca 4x5

That said, most any of the older MF systems -- the *real* Hasselblad (V or F), Mamiya 645 or RZ67, Fuji GX or Contax 645 -- are excellent systems IF they have the focal lengths you are after.

My .02 only...

Cheers,

Jack_Flesher said:

Hassy is coming out with a 28 (for an effective 21mm or so) for the H3D, but it will only work on that camera and is not backwards compatible with their own H1/H2. Not to mention the back is dedicated and cannot be used on anything else. Fact is, a closed MF system is nothing more than an oversized DSLR. To me, that type of marketing arrogance by the new Hasselblad, showing ZERO loyalty to their existing customers, is enough to make me take my business elsewhere -- and in that small way I am telling Hassy to shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

Click to expand...

Jack, be as angry as you wish with Hasselblad, but get your facts straight first.

The backs on the H3D whether 22 or 39MP both will work on many, many view cameras (may Arca 6x9 for one) and are powered either by being tethered to a laptop/workstation or by using Hasselblad's Image Bank which uses Sony type Li batteries. Before you go trashing a system please, please make sure you have it right.

I happen to be an existing Hasselblad customer who feels that this move will strengthen Hasselblad's position. Their innovation has provided me tools to do my job better (DAC, DACII, 28mm). I chose them over Leaf and Phase because I could see the day rapidly approaching where professionals such as myself would want and welcome a fully integrated capture system (lens/body/back) just for the reasons listed. Leaf and Phase have been left scrambling trying to figure out how to compete. Maybe the Hy6 will be their answer, but right now we'll all just have to wait. Meanwhile, I'm working with a system RIGHT NOW that technically actually does what I've always wanted, has great support, and makes my clients smile time and time again.

Richard

If it is compatible, they had better get that information out to their dealers! Mine was VERY specific that the H3 was a totally closed system and that not only is the 28 only going to work on the H3D, but the back cannot be mounted to any other camera -- and they are one of the largest Hassy dealers on the west coast. I'd very much like to see official Hasselblad documentation to the contrary if you can point me to it.

Jack_Flesher said:

If it is compatible, they had better get that information out to their dealers! Mine was VERY specific that the H3 was a totally closed system and that not only is the 28 only going to work on the H3D, but the back cannot be mounted to any other camera -- and they are one of the largest Hassy dealers on the west coast. I'd very much like to see official Hasselblad documentation to the contrary if you can point me to it.

Click to expand...

You are correct about the 28. It will only work with the H3D according to Hasselblad. This is in conjunction with DAC II, the distortion correction software. My guess is you could put it on an H2 or H1, but forget about correcting the distortion within the system, and maybe there'd be some vignetting too. I haven't tried it yet, but have one on order.

As for the H3D's 22 and 39MP backs themselves being compatible with other cameras, your dealers was referring to MF SLR type cameras (i.e Contax, Mamiya, Hasselblad H1/2, etc.). If you go to Hasselblad's web site and download the pdf for the H3D you'll find the documentation you're looking for. As I mentioned, mounting to a view camera is not an issue with these backs.

Richard

Okay, I found reference to the fact the backs will work on view cameras -- this is a very positive revelation -- thank you for pointing it out! The H3D39 is back on the table for consideration...

Jack_Flesher said:

Okay, I found reference to the fact the backs will work on view cameras -- this is a very positive revelation -- thank you for pointing it out! The H3D39 is back on the table for consideration...

Click to expand...

Great! Glad you found it. I think Hasselblad is doing what any competitive camera mfr. would be doing, trying to separate themselves from the competition by introducing new features that will make their product unique. Personally, to be able to use a system that has mapped their lenses (even the zoom) for CA and distortion corection is just fantastic. Think about traditionally dealing with the moustache distortion on the 35. For me it's all about quality and time, the less I have to think about technical corrections the more time and energy I have to be creative.

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone.

just bought contax645

with prism, filmback, 2/80+2,8/45+2,8/140+4/210 lenses for either my e22 or my e75 for all together $4400.
use this with a p20 or a kodak proback and the price will be cheaper than a 1ds2 with 4lenses. i think mf prices are tempting... and the contax has what i need in such a body. future lenses? cant see why if the existing ones are good and cover the range.

Mamiya just announced a 28mm that is about 25.23mm equivalent on 20mm on a 645 using a P 25/45 back.

Regarding shift/tilt ... photoshop will do it, but it is not "organic" ... but so is digital, compared to film, no?

Probably the future is going to be populated by more 28mm and 35mm "view camera" style for the MF sensors, and also some miniature cameras.
_______

I have a crazy Idea: what about using an RB Sekor 37mm attached to the front standard of a Sinar with the digital back on the other. I think that this lens can be shot independently of the RB, and you only have to figure out how to wind it -- I think that you can do that easily-- and the image circle may be sweet.

Leonardo,

So you have ordered one of the new lenses? Any on you gift list?

Asher

leonardobarreto.com said:

Regarding shift/tilt ... photoshop will do it, but it is not "organic" ... but so is digital, compared to film, no?

Click to expand...

Shift yes, although resampling is required and you'll lose some of the field of view in the process. Tilt, e.g. in landscape photography to allow depth of field with shorter shutterspeed, cannot be done as effectively (if at all) as with a tilt capable lens.

There are other postprocessing possibilities to achieve 'infinite' DOF and have faster shutterspeeds, but there will potentially be other (registration) issues beyond the scope of this topic.

Bart

No such thing as a free lunch, or even a Grande Late (I have to say that I received a free Chipotle burrito voucher in the mail the other day and it did work, I got my free burrito for lunch) so one has to decide what priorities are.

For me tilt/shif is associated with the idea that a tripod will be present. I think that I have done some shift non-tripod shots, but never felt good. If you are purist enough to prefer natural PC to digital one you are probably not going to be happy with slow speeds and small f. stops associated with hand held shooting. With my P 25 even some tripods are too "handheld" (not still enough for the hi res and longer lenses of MF)

So, if you have a 28mm or 35mm AND tripod, I don't see how you will have depth of field problems if you stop at f.11/f.16

For my needs I mostly need a lens that can do shift, (for table top product it is necessary to have both, but in that case you just mount the back on a Sinar and use old view camera lenses -- just checking the color cast --.

With the new 20mm (equivalent) there is going to be sufficient coverage for post processing PC correction on Photoshop, and at 63MB per shot, a little lost resolution could be acceptable.

Asher, I spent all my money on the P 25 and the pipeline of income is dry yet, but I have a prospective assignment early next year for an architect firm and it is good to be informed of the new toys Santa is working on for us good kids On the other side, Im going for two weeks to Tokyo to visit my wife's family and if they had the 28 at Yodobashi it would be very tempting. I think that I will go to the second hand stores in Ginza and Shinjuku to look for a good used 35mm AF and/or a 50mm shift... then my dream set up will be complete.

most important is distortion .... as with all wides for architecture. lets see how the mamiya will handly that...

Leonardo,

Now that you are an experienced MF bargain-hunter-shopper, could you delineate example complete systems with say two choices of backs so we can see the cost new or used? Just pretty rough kit prices would be great.

Also some opf your pictures!!!

Cheers!

Asher

Asher, I cant upload images because I don't have access to my server (everything is on my G4 and that is inside a container somewhere) I made some tests at 15" at night and the back produced very clean images...

I think that it is difficult to prescribe a system to the general public, everything depends on many factors: usage, budget, etc. In my case I have always been a fan of things japanese, and appreciated very much things european...

Regarding the back also, probably all are good and depends on small details. The reason I went got the P 25 a) the best software -- even a Leaf dealer conceded this and the next reason -- and b) the best performance for really long exposures.

The other big decision is the size of the sensor. There are many different proportions and real states in the main brands. The P 25 has the larger size (same as the P 45) and this was important for me because of wide angles usage.

Going back to the camera. The 645 AF has existed for longer time than the H and you can find much better bargain used optics, even some non AF that would fit (no auto f) like the 50mm shift that can be purchased for $600 !

Leonardo,

I was thinking of putting a digital back on my Bronica.

BTW, does the P25 really have a larger area than the largest Leaf Aptus backs?

One can get a used 17MP Aptus for about $8000 I have heard.

So what's the prices you have seen for Phase one's used?

Asher

Asher I made a diagram of all the different backs, sizes, megapixels and sensel dimensions in microns. This tree factors you have to consider before you go after a back.

Sensel is a semi english word that refers to the size of the optical device that captures the electrons and this are like wells that fill up and flush in accordance with strict laws, so basically: size matters here for IQ. The P 25, for example has larger sensel size than the P 45 (that produces more resolution) and in theory the IQ of a P 25 is better but smaller. (P 25 suffer from moire I have to admit)

Then the size of the sensor -- that is related to that of the sensels and so to IQ and noice levels etc-- also affects, in practical terms, the way your collection of lenses will work and is similar to the DX and FF in Canon/Nikon format. In this case the P 25 has the large size that is about two 35mm full frames laying side by side. There are other back whit this sensor size, but no one has a bigger than this, (some discontinued backs had a 2 1/4 full size sensor that was same as a Hasselblad transparency) in the non military/industrial world.

Megapixels are just one more factor. My back produces a 62MP (+-) file "compressed" to 8 bits when "developed" and it is more than sufficient to satisfy a large majority of clients.

Then there is the "problem" of attaching the back to a system and before that choosing one.

The AFD 645 Mamiya, according to my dealer is the one that has "the most communication" between camera and back with the PhaseOne, it means that you can shoot the camera thetered and AF. (you can't set aperture/speed) making work much faster.

With PhaseOne you can't change the mount of the back after you get one, so you have to make your mind up, and I think that it would be difficult to find refurbished or eBay ones with the Bronica mount. I think that if you are going to spend thousands on a back you may have to consider picking up a Mamiya body of which there are many optioned on eBay every day. The camera is like a Canon (only slower). That is what I did, I traded in my RZ II with a 180mm, 50mm, 110mm+ a Schneider G Claron 8x10, a 75mm 4x5 etc etc all of this just to get the 645AFD.

I think that the price for a refurbished 1 year warranty P 25 should be less than the 14K that I paid. I have mine insured and have to work hard next year to pay the baby or the devils of credit card hell will get to me and chew me up.

saludos, leonardo

i just received my contax 645 kit together with 4 lenses. 45 / 80 / 140 + 210mm zeiss lenses.
included was the battery grip. flash grip and polaback....
all together was 4400$. good condition.... great camera. it is so modern constructed, i dont see what i will miss. hopethe emotion can interpret the exif data, phase can do so.
today i will mount and dajust the adapter for my emotion. really great value for the money.

Thanks Leonardo for your update!

I've been distracted by the M8 and have no started to like the images from the Leaf. I am impressed by the accuracy of the H2 Hasselblad autofocus. I haven't tried anything else yet.

The emotion should really be great on the Contax, Rainer! But can one get the camera serviced?

I hope they have adapters for these backs to go on the new Hy6 derivative bodies.

Good luck you guys!

Asher

http://www.tritec-service.de/
its only for germany, i dont know about other countries. no idea about turnaround times and prices.
i am impressed very much how well it works together with the emotion. no cables.

yes. ofcourse there will be an adapter for the emotion to the HY6.....

Asher, thank you for upgrading me to "senior member", Is that because I talk too much?? ;-)

I'm going to Tokyo tomorrow, so I will get on the dark side of the moon for a bit, but will probably come back with things to talk about... I will probably live the Mamiya and take the Fujifilm S2 with me.... sayonara