Canon DSR's: does it make sense to have two fora?

Used to be that the needs of the Professional were defined by the extra features of the Canon cameras. Now, however, even the Digital Rebel XTi might be a handy extra to have.

Reading about Large Format cameras, especially 4x5, which seem to be selling well, some great photographers use Tachihara's at just $700. One guy has several so, if one is damaged, so what! Others do the same LF photography for $4,000 more! Aren't we now in that positon with Canon DSLR's and fine lenses?

So should we be splitting up the discussions, 1D series v. the rest? After all, take the 20D or 30D, with that extra reach, all ther way down the aisle in a wedding! Your 70-200 now frames the couple, now married, as they return from the Chuppah/alter/justice of the peace! Does anyone in fact use these x 1.6 cameras for professional weddings?

At this time, we are a reasonably sized group, so what do you think, one of two Canon fora? We still have, after all, moderators on hand to move posts away!

Asher

Conceptually, sounds pretty sound to me...

Asher Kelman said:

So should we be splitting up the discussions, 1D series v. the rest?

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Well, let's just take a look at some key points (which have been the fundamental reason why other resources/forums have simply failed to mantain a cohesive, and productive audience):

1. There is a lot (I mean, boat-loads) of technology packed into these cams. Therefore, there is plenty of material to discuss and analyze (maybe more than a standard, simpler system). Here, we are just touching the technical side of the coin.

2. As for the photographic / artistic potential, well, such technical resources certainly open lots of doors for creativity, for expression, for doing pretty much what you want... again, probably more than standard, more affordable systems.

3. The buyer's profile of a 1D-class system is simply different than the buyer of other systems. It is not just about the purchasing power... it is about what they seek to experience, to embrace and to obtain from a system like the 1D-series (or whatever similar to it). This has absolutely nothing to do with one camera/model being better or worse, being more expensive or less. It has to do with what the system entails, and the attributes and expectations it draws upon from the buyer/user.

4. Additionally, the 1D-series represents for Canon its highest regarded, most promoted and valued effort (regardless of what people think or not about it). The mere fact is that the 1D-series is precisely where Canon concentrates most of its talent and experience in designing, manufacturing and marketing world-class photographic equipment (regardless of the quirks, annoyances, etc.) Just look at the 1D Mark III: if it works as presented, it is simply a masterpiece of engineering and execution. It is not that it has 10MP... but HOW it has them built, how it works, what it is made of, as well as and the WHOLENESS of the package. It desperately and loudly oozes performance and quality all over the place... And that is something that you either love, disregard or envy... Well, that is exactly what the 1D-series is all about: 20-years of "EOS passion distilled", which Canon coins on its own words, and which simply shows in the 1D Mark III. This, in summary, means that anyone getting himself/herself into a 1D-class system should know exactly what is he/she getting into, or, at least, know why: because it is the very best you will find on this planet.

Therefore, after reviewing these simple market/product/buyer dynamics, it does not sound wrong (to me) thinking in a separate 1D sector/area... *if and only if* such separation still allows other talented folks (with other non 1D-systems) to easily participate and search in that portion of the content.

Now, the question remains as HOW to perform this separation, though. How to actually execute, and how to re-structure the content.

Just my 0.02c

Thanks for that well thought out response. You do seem to suggest that OPF might be considering splitting the Canon 1D Professional forum. That is not the case at all.

We currently have two DSLR fora for Canon, The 1D series and then the rest! I wondered out aloud whether we are strong enough to manage everything together. So the the 1D series, now separate,l would also welcome the 20D, 30D and Rebels in one all-inclusive Canon DSLR forum.

I see you argue against that and make good points.

Asher

Thanks for pointing me on the right direction...

Asher Kelman said:

You do seem to suggest that OPF might be considering splitting the Canon 1D Professional forum. That is not the case at all.

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From your original question, I thought that you presented the idea of a more granular, further "slotted" approach for allowing further differentiation of 1D-related content, accross the entire board/forum (not just the equipment portion, though). That is how I interpreted it.

So the the 1D series, now separate,l would also welcome the 20D, 30D and Rebels in one all-inclusive Canon DSLR forum.

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As you mentioned, above are the key/core arguments that can quickly help in assessing the impact of such decision. Being an user of both 1D and non-1D systems, it is clear to me that such move could turn out to be counter-productive, and there is little or no sinergy to be generated or capitilized upon, simply because of the existing "assymetry" between buyers/users profiles of these systems.

Just my 0.02.

No sense to split the forum here

I think that it does not make sense to split the forum here. There are so many commonalities between the Canon dSLR products. We have a limited number of participants and while there are different preferences in some cases, the threads themselves will sort the specific needs of the poster/responders.

As it is, we have so many places (too many, really - just my opinion) with which to post and comment that it is easy to miss seeing posts. For me, a board junkie for several different boards, where there are too many forums/topics causing me to navigate to too many places, I just scan and don't read or respond to some that I might otherwise be interested in participating....

Keep it simple!

I would not split the forums as the camera's are unique to the series.

However Asher raises an interesting question. Can a lower priced camera with it's limitations be better in certain situations?

The camera itself is nothing more than a capture mechanism. Can a lower priced lower feature camera be the best "tool" to capture the image?

Is there a place for a second body that is not the Ultra sealed all weather 10 pound beast?

I have the 1D MkII and the 5D. Very different camera bodies and I use them accordingly.

The MkII is not good at high ISO. The 5D is.

The MkII is great for fast sport shooting the 5D is not.

I think Asher has raised a great question. Are the non pro bodies ignored simply as a matter of status rather than a useful tool for the right situation?

Jeff

I would have thought the glass was as important as the body, wrt image quality, and wp, and price.

To be honest, considering the current volume of visitors and posts in this forum I don't see the need to split it even into two sections as it is the case now (i.e. Canon Pro Bodies vs Canon Rest). After all, we don't seem to be needing two sections for Nikon cameras, do we?

Just my $ 0.02,

Plenty of resources here...

Kathy Rappaport said:

interested in participating....

Keep it simple!

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In my opinion, it is already simple and convenient. This place has TONS of tools, it is infinitely better structured and organized than anything I haver seen/read (generally speaking), and "gadgets" to help us keep track of anything we wish for.

I can view the latest posts in general, I can view the latest posts to those threads that *I* subscribe, I can view exactly who is reading what, and who is logged on or not, I can jump into those posts that are hot, or I can explore at leisure anything that is cold, buried in the archives (pretty nice search engine), and the list goes on and on...

The HW forums should be maintained split, separated, and differentiated, in all fairness, that is one of the areas of this place that is kept the simplest and neatest. There are other areas, indeed, that may be subject to consolidation or simplification, because their sub-divisions are a lot deeper than the HW section.

Looks to me plain evident, though.

Look at it this way...

Cem Usakligil said:

After all, we don't seem to be needing two sections for Nikon cameras, do we?

Just my $ 0.02,

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Let me try to present the situation in a different context but with similar dynamics, though.

When you take your Ferrari 360 Modena or F430 to the autoclub you are not precisely hoping to hang out, all day, with Toyota Celicas or Mustangs (no pun intended!). There is nothing wrong (absolutely nothing) in having friends that hang in such platforms. However, when it comes to the nitty-gritty of your passion, you will have little in common trying to share how a 3.6 or 4.0 engine makes 490 HP at 8500+ rpms, vs. smaller cars or much less efficient (volumetrically speaking), making 1/3 or 1/2 or 1/4th of your Ferrari's output, and with much lower braking power, and, most importantly, fairly different vehicle dynamics, in general. Now, there will be some rare and bizarre exceptions, of course, like getting close to a 550+ hp Mitsubishi EVO, which will be something you will never forget, indeed, either in a straight line or in a full-of-curves track.

The story, in a nutshell, is that you are expecting to meet folks that share the same passion as yours for exotic cars, for what they mean, for their technological merits, and, most important, for the joy of riding them... That is why, in first place, you got a Ferrari for yourself, right? There are people that expect to be transported by their cars from point A to point B and... there are folks that buy cars to simply drive them, to push them, and to enjoy their ride to its fullest. It is the same concept in general, but that subtle change in purpose makes a huge difference in the user's profile and the end-product itself.

I hope that the above makes some sense, and the analogy does not result into something distant, and rather helps visualizing the issues at play, here.

Just my 0.02c

Got it!

Ferenc, that crystallizes why we are slow in building out LF forum. In that case we are nurturing the work of Erik and Will and are setting up workshops. For MF I'm now trained in the Leaf backs and am studying Sinar (we have Rainer here) and the Seitz 6x17. It's tough to get these groups going but we will do it. It is required both the cart and the horse to have a functioning wagon. For the DSLR's we are well equiped and I can see your point aboit the Ferrari factor.

Meanwhile any other ideas for improving the OPF experience will be appreciated.


Asher

Hi Ferenc,

Obviously, your analogy of Ferraris an Toyotas is quite understandable. However, my previous post is not mutually exclusive to where you’re coming from. If you read my post it its “entire context”, you’ll see that I have merely stated that I don’t see the need for introducing even more specific sub-fora for Canon cameras then the currently available ones, considering the fact that this is not a high volume forum and that we all read all that is posted anyway.

My remark about not having two sections for Nikon cameras was a tease, just to see if it would elicit any humorous reactions.

Having written all this, I am actually disturbed a bit by your analogy. If I would translate your words into cameras, it would read as if someone having an “exotic” 1D series camera with lots of power “under the bonnet” would frown upon us lowly folks who can only afford “cheap” cameras.

Ferenc Harmat said:

There is nothing wrong (absolutely nothing) in having friends that hang in such platforms

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Especially the previous remark is one I have heard made a lot in the past in many other forms, such as: “there is nothing wrong with X people, some of my best friends are actually X people”.

I sincerely hope that I have totally misinterpreted your remarks and apologise in advance if that is the case .

Regards,

Take a look at this...

Cem Usakligil said:

Having written all this, I am actually disturbed a bit by your analogy. If I would translate your words into cameras, it would read as if someone having an “exotic” 1D series camera with lots of power “under the bonnet” would frown upon us lowly folks who can only afford “cheap” cameras.

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That is a classical view/interpretation of the issue, though. You do not need to assume, in any case, that someone would "frown upon you" because 1D-class cams are what they are, and you do not own one. The interpretation itself fails to capture the essence of the issue on hand, which is just about the instrinsic benefits of the "Ferrrari" value-proposition, and which also has little to do with how anyone who does not have it would feel. It is a mistaken connection, indeed.

We need to be very careful and objective (NOTE: I do not own a Ferrari F430...

I sincerely hope that I have totally misinterpreted your remarks and apologise in advance if that is the case .

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I would not disqualify your interpretation, but it did sounded a bit touchy / personal, from this side. After all, it is you who should "frown on those of us" that do not have the opportunity to produce such wonderful panoramas... ;-)

My 0.02c

Dear Ferenc,

Firstly, let me offer my sincere apologies for being a bit "touchy" in my previous post. You did not deserve the tone of my response at all. I swear, this was the last time I'd replied quickly to a post on a forum when I was actually rather pissed with some other issues in real life. So I ended up sounding rude and bitter, what was I thinking?! Mea culpa, mea culpa....

Thanks for your understanding and very mature reaction .

Cheers,

I'll have to 2nd Ferenc on his assertions. It is true that the Rebel DSLR's share the same type of parts (not same exact parts) with the 1D series, parts like mirror, EOS mount, sensor (albeit different sensor), buttons, metering modes, LCD, etc, etc....HOWEVER, the 1D series generally attracts pros, semi pros, advanced amatuers, and others that are generally more passionate about their photography, more so then most typical owners of the lessor models. Of course we all know exceptions to this....there are those that have the passion but cannot afford better then an XTi, and then there are the gear heads that have no passion for photography, but are red hot passionate about the latest and greatest gadgets, kit, and the like, so please do take my comments as generalizations with exceptions.

In other words, it is great that this site separates the 1D series with everything else.

The one exception that I take is that I personally feel that the 5D belongs in the "1D" forum because although it is a prosumer camera (not pro), chances are great that owners of the 5D are more of the pro/semi-pro/advanced amatuer ilk, and therefore should be discussed in the 1D forum.

Weddings, the OP asked? Weddings are the domain of fullframe, then 1.3 crop comes 2nd, then everything else. I say this because weddings are about lots of wide angle, low light, high ISO, so lowest noise is the way to go in regard to bodies. Also, weddings mean enlargements, so I'd rather cut a given framing/composition into 12.8 or more million pieces then less. Also the bigger fullframe sensor divides into a resutling enlarged print LESS TIMES, meaning less interpolation, less chance for the introduction of digital artifacts, etc.