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Expose to the Right and High(er) ISO

KrisCarnmarker

New member
OK, so I'm sitting there viewing the newly release "From Camera to Print" videos from Luminous Landscape, and more or less in passing, they talk about the "Expose to the Right" technique.

Now, they mention that doing this is essentially like lowering the ISO sensitivity. Assuming we are talking about exposure, this is understood. However, they claim that there is no point in using the technique at higher ISOs, e.g. 200, as you may as well lower the ISO to 100. That is what I fail to understand. The technique is used in order to make use of the most amount of bits. How does that change when using ISO 200, for example?
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Chris,

OK, so I'm sitting there viewing the newly release "From Camera to Print" videos from Luminous Landscape, and more or less in passing, they talk about the "Expose to the Right" technique.

Now, they mention that doing this is essentially like lowering the ISO sensitivity. Assuming we are talking about exposure, this is understood. However, they claim that there is no point in using the technique at higher ISOs, e.g. 200, as you may as well lower the ISO to 100. That is what I fail to understand. The technique is used in order to make use of the most amount of bits. How does that change when using ISO 200, for example?

On the typical digital camera with various "ISO speed" modes, assuming the use of automatic exposure control, changing the "ISO" setting will not (ordinarily) move the exposure to the right; that is, shift the range of photometric exposure on the sensor to a higher point on the range of the imaging system (as it is in that "ISO" mode). We often describe places in that range in terms of fractions of the saturation value of photometric exposure (as it is in that "ISO" mode).

The reason of course is that the change in setting changes the actual sensitivity of the system (thus changing its saturation value) and advises the metering system of that, so it will enact an exposure (in the sense of shutter speed and aperture) that will give the same result as before.

For example, if, on a certain camera, with the "ISO" set to "ISO 100", a metered exposure of a frame-filling gray card gives (in the JPEG output) a pixel value across the image of R/G/B 116/116/116, then if we change the setting to "ISO 200", and take the same test shot, we should expect that the image will still have its pixels at R/B/G 116/116/116.

Now in fact it might not work out exactly that way, owing to subtleties in how the camera metering and image processing work. But it will not be far off.

Regarding "making best use of the number of bits", classically, changes in the ISO sensitivity of the camera are implemented by changing the gain of the analog amplifiers between the actual photodetectors and the analog-to-digital converters. If this is wholly true, then changes in the ISO sensitivity (again assuming metered exposure) do not have any effect on the "use of the bits" issue.

(There will of course be noise implications, which I do not treat here.)

In some cases, the highest ISO sensitivity modes are obtained with the amplifiers having the gain for a lower mode and changing the range of the system by digital (numerical) manipulation of the output numbers from the analog to digital converters. In some case, the amplifiers are not able to be set to distinct gains for the full repertoire of available "ISO speed" modes, perhaps only distinct gains for the settings (other than the highest) at full-stop intervals, with intermediate settings done by digital manipulation.

In such a case, the "best use of the bits" occurs at those "ISO speed" settings having distinct amplifier gains (perhaps the "full stop" values except the highest one).
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Doug,

If it were possible, would re-reading the same voltage and A-D converting again numerous times be a method to deal with gain-noise.

Asher
 

KrisCarnmarker

New member
Thanks Doug. What you describe is how I've understood it (if I've understood your post correctly).

What i meant in my OP about effectively lowering the ISO was not exposure, but exposure settings. For instance, assuming ISO 100, if I would use f2.8 and 1/500 s for a "correctly exposed" image, I would need to modify that to (e.g.) f.2.8 and 1/250 in order to expose to the right by one stop. This would be the same modification I would have to make if I were to lower the ISO to 50 but not expose to the right. At least that is how I understood what MR meant in the video.

So, just to clarify: you agree that there is no reason why "exposing to the right" is not equally applicable at other ISO settings? Disregarding noise issues, etc..
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Kris,

Thanks Doug. What you describe is how I've understood it (if I've understood your post correctly).

What i meant in my OP about effectively lowering the ISO was not exposure, but exposure settings. For instance, assuming ISO 100, if I would use f2.8 and 1/500 s for a "correctly exposed" image, I would need to modify that to (e.g.) f.2.8 and 1/250 in order to expose to the right by one stop. This would be the same modification I would have to make if I were to lower the ISO to 50 but not expose to the right.

Gotcha.

So, just to clarify: you agree that there is no reason why "exposing to the right" is not equally applicable at other ISO settings? Disregarding noise issues, etc..

If bumping the exposure by one stop makes sense at one ISO speed setting, it would generally also make the same sense at another.

However, that's not my concept of "expose to the right". To me the term means:

Pick an exposure (shutter speed and aperture, what I call "exposure1") such that the highest luminance part of the scene receives a photometric exposure (what I call "expsure2) on the sensor at almost saturation (whatever that is for the ISO speed setting in use).

That is not necessarily always an exposure1 that is one stop hotter than the metering system would choose (which I assume is what you mean would be for "correct exposure").

Best regards,

Doug
 
That is not necessarily always an exposure1 that is one stop hotter than the metering system would choose (which I assume is what you mean would be for "correct exposure").

In general, expose-to-the-right (ETTR) is done with an override to the exposure metering, as an +/- EV adjustment. I often use a +1/3rd EV as a basis for my shooting style.

Bart
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

Doug,

If it were possible, would re-reading the same voltage and A-D converting again numerous times be a method to deal with gain-noise.

Let's first talk about "possible".

In a CCD sensor array, we do not really read out the voltage. We dump the charge from the photodetector (and eventually read the voltage that charge causes when it eventually reaches the end of the "bucket brigade"). So you can't read it more than once for one exposure.

In a CMOS sensor array, we really do read out the voltage from the photodetector, and could perhaps do so again (although the way it is read out may disturb it a little).

But most of the noise (not all) manifests itself in randomness of the voltage on the photodetector at the end of the exposure time, so reading it out several times and averaging it wouldn't really do anything. (There is some noise introduced in the amplifiers, and that might be mitigated by the approach you propose.)

You can get a general idea of how the CMOS sensor works from my article, "The CMOS APS Digital Camera Sensor", available on The Pumpkin. I'm operating in peculiar circumstances right now, so I can't easily give you a link. By the way, "APS" there has nothing to do with the accursed convention for describing the sizes of digital sensors; it means "active pixel sensor".

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Unfortunately, not!

The LCD histogram is based on the jpg and misses out much of the space to the right of interest in the last stop!

Asher
 

KrisCarnmarker

New member
That is not necessarily always an exposure1 that is one stop hotter than the metering system would choose (which I assume is what you mean would be for "correct exposure").

Right, that's understood. It's hard to know what Michale Reichman really means with his "equivalent to ISO 50 statement", but I was just assuming what I wrote above.

I also use exposure compensation when exposing to the right, and certainly I need to look at the histogram.

So it seems that we are all in agreement. I wonder what he means then...
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,
Unfortunately, not!

The LCD histogram is based on the jpg and misses out much of the space to the right of interest in the last stop!

As you know, I have not so far operated in the raw regime, so there is much common wisdom that I do not have at hand.

Typically, how can we quantify the "headroom" that remains (considering the availablilty of the raw data) in a shot that is "exposed fully to the right" with respect to the JPEG output (that is, a shot in which highest value of either R, G, or B is essentially 255)?

That is, for that same scene, how much hotter could we have exposed it before any of the raw CFA "channels" reached their saturation digital output value of 4095?

I realize that of course the actual numerical answer would depend on the chromaticity of the highest luminance part of the scene. But perhaps the typical answer would be known for the chromaticity of a neutral scene object illuminated by light of some handy standard "white" flavor (perhaps the white point of the sRGB color space).

I plan to do some testing on this myself, but owing to various equipment problems here at the moment doing so would be cumbersome, so I am putting it off. So I hoped there was a "well-known" broad answer. There must be, since people speak so often of the existence of this headroom.

Thanks for helping me get into this important new compartment of my understanding.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Based on tests I just complete for an article in DPP, the histogram is all but useless to me with my Canon 5D.

Using controlled lighting, shooting a number of test targets, at least one with an amazingly white tile and neutral reading from a Spectrophotometer, I was able to shoot at 1.5 stops OVER the meter recommendation (Sekonic flash meter), get full non-clipped highlights by simply altering the Exposure slider in Lightroom. 2 stops over did blow out the data (full sensor saturation). When I viewed the bracketed images (half stop) on the LCD, ½ over normal showed highlight clipping (based on the JPEG I'm not asking for).

In all cases, the ETTR images produced superior data, most notable in the last stop of shadows. The higher the ISO, the more apparent.

From this set of tests, even after playing around with JPEG picture styles to get a flatter image, the Histogram and clipping were far from ideal or based on the actual Raw data I eventually got.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Andrew,

. . .I was able to shoot at 1.5 stops OVER the meter recommendation (Sekonic flash meter), get full non-clipped highlights . . .

Interesting.

How much hotter would this exposure (1.5 stops over metered) have been compared to the exposure that gave full ETTR as seen on the JPEG output (which would of course have been hotter than the metered exposure)?

Thanks for the input.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
How much hotter would this exposure (1.5 stops over metered) have been compared to the exposure that gave full ETTR as seen on the JPEG output (which would of course have been hotter than the metered exposure)?

The 'normal' exposure looks normal on the camera LCD and using the default rendering in CR/LR. I came up with 1.5 over as the ideal ETTR as I was bracketing (via flash power) in ½ stop increments and the Plus 2 was indeed truly over exposed. The white tiles clipped. The plus 1 stop could be adjusted but so could the plus 1 ½ to produce the same appearance as the normal image but without white clipping.
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
No proof, but feelings out of experience, it's not only about quantity of ETTR but depends on the light's contrast, as well. Might that be correct?
 

Don Lashier

New member
No proof, but feelings out of experience, it's not only about quantity of ETTR but depends on the light's contrast, as well. Might that be correct?
Indeed. In fact with my typical shooting conditions (outdoors on a sunny day), ETTR doesn't make any sense at all as you're already flirting with highlight blowout at "normal" exposure due to the high DR of the scene.

- DL
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Some headroom test results

Just as a matter of curiosity, I did some very simplistic tests to look a little into the matter of the "headroom" of the raw output compared to the headroom of the JPEG output in my EOS 20D.

I used an admittedly special case (one that makes analysis simple, of course): a frame-filling uniformly-illuminated "uniform" reflectance neutral target (gray card). (We'll see later why I put "uniform" in quotes!)

The illumination was from a constellation of three flash units, at fixed output. I did a custom white balance with the setup and used CWB in the camera (pertains only to the JPEG output, of course).

I took exposures at different apertures at 1/3 stop spacing and for each, looked at the RGB values of the JPEG output (in my editor) and the values of the r, g1, and b channels of the raw output (with IRIS).

An interesting "point on the curve" was where the RGB values, averaged over a central part of the image, were 253/253/253. The histogram peaks were fairly broad (owing to the fact that the test target was not quite of uniform reflectance, having a noticeably mottled surface). The histogram showed that 17.6% of all pixels were above RGB 254/254/254 (and thus could be considered clipped) In terms of the JPEG output, this is really pretty "exposed to the right".

For the raw output, I was not able to conveniently get an average value but only a histogram per channel (r, g1, and b). Again, the peaks were of significant width.

The centers of the peaks of the histograms for the three raw channels (on a 4095-unit maximum scale, presumably with black at about 128 units) were at approximately:

r: 1900
g1: 3800 [but see below]
b: 2600

But a noticeable part of the upper skirt of the g1 channel peak would have been above 4095, and thus those pixel values were clipped to that level. So, for this particular uninteresting object, that exposure resulted in a little clipping of (the green component of) its highlight detail (such as it was).

Overall, for this particular contrived setup, "when the JPEG output was just out of headroom, the raw output was just out of headroom.

Now, in another test shot, 1/3 stop lower in exposure, the RGB averages were 244/244/244,with only 0.3% of the pixels above 253 (essentially no clipping). Then, for the raw output, the peaks of the channel histograms were at approximately:


r: 1500
g1: 2800
b: 2000

again, with essentially no clipping.

(Note that these are consistent, between the two tests, with the raw values being essentially linear with photometric exposure.)

Of course, all the relationships in the camera are so complicated that it is difficult to reliably extrapolate these findings, taken for an unrealistic, idealized situation, into cases involving real scenes.

Therefore, I emphasize that although these "idealized situation" tests give some useful insights into this matter, we cannot (necessarily) from these results develop any policies governing exposure planning for real scenes. It does, however, raise some questions about the notion that "in the raw context, there is significantly more headroom than in the JPEG context."

Best regards,

Doug
 

Andrew Rodney

New member
Indeed. In fact with my typical shooting conditions (outdoors on a sunny day), ETTR doesn't make any sense at all as you're already flirting with highlight blowout at "normal" exposure due to the high DR of the scene.

Actually you're still using ETTR, as you're ensuring you're not blowing out the highlight detail in a scene with an enormous dynamic range. ETTR would suggest, if there's bright highlights you want to capture, you absolutely do not clip them but exposure just below that value. ETTR isn't about over exposing, its about exposing for the highlights and developing for the highlights. How we decide to expose for this is the tricky stuff as well as how we use the LCD to provide anything useful based on these behaviors.
 

John Sheehy

New member
It does, however, raise some questions about the notion that "in the raw context, there is significantly more headroom than in the JPEG context."

What is the contrast setting in the 20D?

What is the average green RAW value for the grey card exposed with the metering at 0 EC, and what histogram peak does that result in on the camera?

These factors all affect the difference between RAW clipping and JPEG clipping.
 
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Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, John,

What is the contrast setting in the 20D?

I forgot to mention that I set that to minimum for this test.

What is the average green RAW value for the grey card exposed with the metering at 0 EC, and what histogram peak does that result in on the camera?

I will determine those.

These factors all affect the difference between RAW clipping and JPEG clipping.

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 

John Sheehy

New member
Right, that's understood. It's hard to know what Michale Reichman really means with his "equivalent to ISO 50 statement", but I was just assuming what I wrote above.

You can use the camera at any ISO exposure index you want; the only issues are the noise floor, relative to middle grey, and the clipping point, relative to middle grey. Pushing and pulling push and pull these levels.

If your camera's lowest ISO setting is 100, and you meter for ISO 12, and the image does not clip anything matte and reflective in the scene, you truly are shooting at ISO 12, probably with higher IQ than the camera would probably have if it really did have ISO 12 and you wasted the headroom. Canon 1Dmk* and 5D DSLRs, for example, have "ISO 50", which really should be ISO 70 or so. ISO 50 and 100 have almost exactly the same read noise, relative to metering on these cameras. This means that ISO 100 with +1 EC has less read noise, relative to signal, than ISO 50 has. IOW, ISO 100 pulled to 50 is a better ISO 50 than the one the camera offers explicitly (in the RAW data; specific converters may not take proper advantage). The only difference is that ISO 50 offers almost 1/3 stop more headroom (but which may possibly be non-linear).
 

John Sheehy

New member
Hi, John,

I forgot to mention that I set that to minimum for this test.

There you have it, then. This generally pulls 2/3 to 1 stop more RAW highlights into the JPEG's highlights. I set all my cameras to minimum contrast, for a more RAW-relevant histogram, and I find that using a little positive EC along with low contrast results in less noisy JPEGs, which can easily be brought back to reasonable tone curve if they are pale, with a gamma setting of around 0.8 in PP.
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
Actually you're still using ETTR, as you're ensuring you're not blowing out the highlight detail in a scene with an enormous dynamic range. ETTR would suggest, if there's bright highlights you want to capture, you absolutely do not clip them but exposure just below that value. ETTR isn't about over exposing, its about exposing for the highlights and developing for the highlights. How we decide to expose for this is the tricky stuff as well as how we use the LCD to provide anything useful based on these behaviors.


Here's what I do: with blue sky, I rather tend to underexpose about 1/3 to 1/2, to avoid blown highlights, if no bracketing for HDR is required.

Meanwhile in cloudy scenes, or in the studio; it's often plus 1/3 to 1/2.

Not a big deal, when shooting to 99% from tripod, in manual mode.
 

John Sheehy

New member
How does that change when using ISO 200, for example?

It applies at all ISOs, but it doesn't make any sense to use a high ISO and be limited to its lower maximum absolute signal clipping level, if you don't need the low absolute signal level.

The best strategy, IMO, is to focus on what Av and Tv values you want, then choose the highest ISO that doesn't clip away desired highlight details, with those Av and Tv values. Unless, of course, your camera is one that adds more noise at the higher ISOs (most don't; they just seem to because the high ISO dictates a low absolute exposure to the metering system).

One doesn't always have the time and luxury of accurately gauging which ISO will cause unwanted clipping, so knowing your camera helps estimate risk. Generally speaking, Canon DSLRs, when used from this perspective, will have the greatest IQ gains from the higher ISOs, and may be worth risking a little highlight detail for the cleaner shadows at higher ISOs. Most other DSLRs don't have any optimized readout for high ISOs, and gain less from using higher ISOs as opposed to under-exposing at lower ISOs, so you might lean more towards the lower ISOs and under-exposure, with less to gain at the higher ISOs. This analysis is based upon the actual RAW data, however, and the limitations of certain converters (or their default setting), and the limitations of shooting in JPEG might make the higher ISO advantageous even on these cameras not optimized for high ISO, as the shadows of conversions tend to be poorly rendered and posterized, and in-camera JPEGs add even more junk to the shadows.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, John,

I set all my cameras to minimum contrast, for a more RAW-relevant histogram

Do you feel that in general, one can successfully choose exposure for raw ETTR (and I don't mean "more to the right than the metered exposure" - I mean "as far to the right as will fit") by observing test shots on the in-camera histogram?

If not, what is the best way to attain that result?

Thanks.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Don Lashier

New member
Actually you're still using ETTR, as you're ensuring you're not blowing out the highlight detail in a scene with an enormous dynamic range. ETTR would suggest, if there's bright highlights you want to capture, you absolutely do not clip them but exposure just below that value. ETTR isn't about over exposing, its about exposing for the highlights and developing for the highlights. How we decide to expose for this is the tricky stuff as well as how we use the LCD to provide anything useful based on these behaviors.

I suppose it's a matter of semantics, but to me ETTR means purposely over-exposing ("to the right") to gain shadow quality. Underexposing in high DR would for me be ETTL :).

Like Uwe, I've never bought into ETTR as a normal technique primarily because it's too time consuming for my fast shooting style with dubious gains for the typical shots I do where noise free shadows aren't worth the risk. Yes in flat lighting I'll tend to overexpose a bit (up to a stop) because it's safe and easy, but in high DR I'll spot the entire scene and expose accordingly. This obviously includes checking the highlights for blowout but I don't consider this ETTR as a method but rather simply exposing for maximum capture based on conditions and the relative importance of various portions of the scene and this may involve exposing to the "right", to the "left", or down the "middle".

PS: I think if the technique had been labeled "expose FOR the right" (EFTR) it would be less controversial as this is pretty standard advice/procedure for digital. ETTR leads to such blanket practices as setting +EV in auto mode which is dangerous without chimping each shot as AE is notoriously sensitive to scene in some situations.

PPS: I'm not against ETTR - it's obviously a valuable concept applicable to a certain class of photos, but it should be used as an element of a larger exposure methodology taking in the dynamics of the scene and the goals of the capture and not just blindly dialing in +EC.

- DL
 
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Bart-Thank you.
I've watched the LL video 3X,and i've read at least a dozen articles on the various forums that address this issue
Yours is the best and simplest answer I've gotten;and the one I will follow.
Mike
 
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