Shift and Tilt-lens: Hartblei 40 mm

Next week, I'm getting a Hartblei 40 mm
for tests; does anybody would be interested in specific shots?

Congratulations, this should be interesting, and I hope you will enjoy yourself!

Three things would be interesting to me:

The depth of field you can achieved with the tilted lens in a close-up situation;

the panoramic effect they talk about with left - right, or left - center - right shift;

the price (this will probably hurt).

Thanks for your generous proposal

Christoph

I think the new gal, Natasa, was looking for smth like this

Michael Fontana said:

Next week, I'm getting a Hartblei 40 mm
for tests; does anybody would be interested in specific shots?

Click to expand...

Interesting. According to their April 2007 press-release, we're talking about a EUR 2700 (excl. tax, shipping and import duty charges) lens.

Obviously resolution tests are in order, both in the center and at the extreme (shifted) corners. Vignetting/light-falloff characteristics will be interesting to test for such lenses which are used at the edge of their image circle. Paradoxical as it may seem, smooth bokeh will be important as well, because it is possible to have only part of a close-up vertical subject in focus.

If you'd like to have quantifiable resolution numbers, I'm willing to run some Imatest SFR (MTF) tests on Raw files. All that's needed, is the addition of suitable test targets in the image. Such a test target can be downloaded from the Imatest site (all it costs is some ink and a sheet of glossy paper, per target).
For vignetting quantification, all that's needed is a uniformly lit flat structureless surface, shot slightly OOF to make sure it doesn't pick up surface structure.

Bart

I picked up a Hartblei 45mm f/2.5 SuperRotator for my Mamiya 645 a couple months ago. I haven't had to really test it however I'm shooting in Sequoia National Park the week after the Photoshop Convention. Everything I've read and heard about these lens so far appear to be true. Very good glass and well put together, you really don't want to drop one on your toe.

I hope to have a couple example images when I return and am willing to share.

Michael Fontana said:

Next week, I'm getting a Hartblei 40 mm
for tests; does anybody would be interested in specific shots?

Click to expand...

Just wondering, any feedback you wish to share?

Bart

I'd be interested in hearing more about this lens.

I shoot with a Canon 45 TSE--and its probably my favorite/most creative lens. I had initially tried to buy a Hartblei 35 mm super rotator but ran into problems at the time with the importer in Atlanta (GA, USA) and bought the Canon (which I'm not sorry for doing). I understand those have been resolved and its no problem to get one now--or you can order directly from Hartblei. They also have expanded the line for 35mm cameras.

I shoot 3 shot flat stitch panos, use the tilt/swing a great deal for increased perception of DOF, use the shift for correction of perspective (use the last 2 together a lot)---and some selective focus. Love the lens. However,--the Hartblei offers the 'plus' of being able to shoot tilt/shift parallel or perpendicular or any way in between--- rather than the default perpendicular of the Canons. They have to be reoriented manually by unscrewing, changing, rescrewing. Jack Flesher has written a nice tute on this
http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_42/essay.html --scroll to the bottom.

A T/S takes patience in use, some experimentation in learning to use the tilt (there is also a great little chart for getting you started on how much tilt to use for the 24, 45 and 90mm TS) http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=18434382

Looking forward to your assessment of the lens.

Diane

oh, sorry

I forgotten to say that the guy from Tekno, a pro photo supplier here, did ring me up the day before he intended to bring the lens; someone already bought it, so he didn't had a spare one for test.

So no test from my side.

Michael Fontana said:

... someone already bought it, so he didn't had a spare one for test.

Click to expand...

No problem, it just looked interesting enough to ask.

Bart

the Hartblei is here now; heavy peace of glass!
I can test it untill monday.

The prize e is about 3600 €, arround 5000 $....

I took 2 snappies, for showing the size, 1. 5 kg !!, and its features:

It shifts 10 mm, and can tilt 8 degrees.

There' s a "pan-button"; to pan the lens 360 degr, with some stopklicks.
Shift and tilts are possible from center in one direction; example: from center to the right, but not the left. Therefore the "pan-button" - in the image named orientation.

Unfortunatly, they gave me the nikonversion, with a EOS-adapter, so this is not as rocksolid, as the lens itself; the lens is a tank ;-)






A first impression: it has the known and reputated Zeiss lens quality

- the pan-button is a bit clumsy; I don't have large fingers, but it's not easy to catch it,
especially with the batterie section of the 1 Ds-2.

Michael Fontana said:

I took 2 snappies, for showing the size, 1. 5 kg !!, and its features: ...

Click to expand...

Hi Michael,

Is this the 'Prototype 4/40 IF TS' version, or the regular Hartblei superrotator?

Looking forward to your observations, especially since they raised the price of the 40mm prototype to EUR 3999.

Bart

Bart, this is not the classic Rotator, but the Carl Zeiss Distagon 4/40 IF T*, otherwise used on the hassi. It has still the hassilenscover for the frontlens.

Basically, they applied the Superrotator-idea on better glas.

The one I have for testing, is out of the first serie; after the protoype and a zeroserie of 33 sets with all 3 new lenses, the 40, 80 and 120. These sets were sold with a 26 % discount... and they are thinking (??) about making another serie of sets.

Look at the english site here

As only few outdoor shots were possible this afternoon - it started to rain - I did some tests, here in the studio; but I want to verify them.

The outside shots showed the typical Zeiss-quality. I had a quick look at them, only...

As for the tests, I' d like to make some camparions, vs good other lenses, off course:

- Hartblei 40 vs Canon 50 mm macro , in the studio....

- Hartblei 40 vs YCZ distagon 35, = flatstitch vs realstitch, the singleshots beeing in landscape orientation = 3 hor. single images.

Same cam, for the distagon 35, I will use my homebrew horizontal panohead:



Agree?

ok, let's talk about the image quality of the lens, compared to the canon macro 50 in a studioshot, taken in the same light conditions, the same tripot position, and the same RAW conversion. Therfore no corrections of the lens colors, etc.

Here's the full image:



and the crops now; it's a exaggeration, in 330%, resp. 300% to get the same size, as the different focal lengths create different "sizes". The crop is taken near the center:

Michael Fontana said:

ok, let's talk about the image quality of the lens, compared to the canon macro 50 in a studioshot, taken in the same light conditions, the same tripot position, and the same RAW conversion. Therfore no corrections of the lens colors, etc.

Click to expand...

Hard to say. The 50mm benefits from its longer focal length, but the 40mm has good contrast.

If you want to avoid the inevitable apple and pear risk, I suggest you make an image of something quantifiable (a Siemens star pattern, or even better a slanted edge target).

Hope the weather gets better while you have the lens. I'd love to see some more results, thanks for sharing.

Bart

Michael,

This Zeiss lens seems awesome. However for $5000 one can get an entire 4x5 LF camera and a first class modern lens! So shouldn't the images be compared with LF film too?

To me $5,000 spent here will be not at risk since these are high quality lenses. Still, it's a breathtakeingly expensive!

In the pictures posted there's a jpg jagged artiface. Any chance you can post the ~50mm comparison with a slightly less compressed file?

Thanks for this great contribution!

Asher

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

Hard to say. The 50mm benefits from its longer focal length, but the 40mm has good contrast.

If you want to avoid the inevitable apple and pear risk, I suggest you make an image of something quantifiable (a Siemens star pattern, or even better a slanted edge target).

Hope the weather gets better while you have the lens. I'd love to see some more results, thanks for sharing.

Bart

Click to expand...

Good morning Bart,

I see.
I' ve got the problem of not having a lot of time at the moment; and during week-end even less. The guy, who brought me the lens, catched me on the wrong feet - timewise.

So sorry, I basically need to reduce the tests on the aspects, that are unique to this lens: shifting and tilting.

Not having a bubblejet-printer - true, a photographer without that exists - as I' m delivering my files on CDs/DVDs only. If a client wants some prints, once in two years, I' l let it make on the lambda, therefore outside.
Yep, I could go and find someone doing the bubbling for me, maybe it works; I' ll try...

Asher, yep, I' ll do so; it might take a bit of time, though.
I chose the 50 mm lens, as it's a reference here, when lenstesting; plus a it's good lens.

When I compared the two lenses visually - by eye - as far as one one compare them whithout a Siemens Star, I found them beeing pretty comparable, the Hartblei 40 beeing unshifted.

Asher, can you tell me, if the next image has jpg artefacts as well? Still from yesterday's studio shot. A extreme corner crop, at the left upper corner.
The Zeiss at 225%, the Canon at 200%. The Canon 50 macro shows a slightly more CA, at 100 % it's less obvious.

http://imago.macbay.de/OPF/L_u_corner.jpg


Is it better to compare allwith at 100%??


I try to shoot this afternoon a outdoor flatstitch with the Hartblei 40, compared to a "realstitch" with the distagon 35 YCZ... both with horizontal shots. Simply, this is the task I would use that lens most; kinda Zörk PSA.

Hi Michael,

You posted that fast! Thanks for the effort and there's no jpg artifact obvious to me now!

The Zeiss lens seems to show more dimensional "bite" than the EF 50 2.5. Is it that the lighting was different or is the Zeiss lens picking up more detail and contrast to define the texture of the surfaces better.

The CA is really very minor and fo all essential purpose if not going to ever be discovered in real life.

I have a Zork with a 45mm 6x7 Pentax lens. Works well!

Asher

the light was identical, a simple studio ligth with two strobes....

as mentioned, the very same RAW converter settings were applied; therefore the idea wasn't to mimikry.

Studio shots are fine, to have a look at the lenses contrast, etc, as in outdoors shot, the light changes very fast.

So here the studio-shots:




And the resulting 100%-crops; from the Hartblei, now, the left shift - Cl_Hartb_L_16 - is shown, meanwhile the canon 50 off course can't shift; so its the center position, the Cl_canon 50_16.
The °16° means the f-stop. Outdoor, I wouldn't use f 16, but in the studio, it's not unnaturally to have a big DOF...
the Hartblei starts with f = 4, meanwhile the macro with 2.5 .....



No surprises - for both lenses; the canon 50-image is a bit darker, the Hartblei shows better resolution, this could be expected.

If someone wants to use the Hartblei in the studio, I recommend strongly a split-viewfinder and a loupe, as shown on page two of that thread. I have both, but without that, it' ll become difficult to focus correctly. BTW: The focus was set on the ruler, for both lenses...

The rotation-pin is a dealbraker: it's hard to klick it, between the body and the tilt-ring, as it is very small; for a 180 deg-rotation, one has to keep it down all the way arround, or klick it several times. Having the rotation-pin on the other side, near the battery-section, is a pain, too.



Probably, this works better on other cams, but having such a lens on a 1.6 crop is rather a unlikely scenario...

C'mon Hartblei, this is a bug; on a sFr 6'000 lens, I want this to be easy!

When flatstitching, its important to shoot the 3 singelshots in a fast succession; moving clouds, etc will make the flatstitching more complex!

This problem could be resolved with a L-pin, instead of a i-pin.

I had to send the Nikon - Eos-adapter away, as the company, which gave the lens
for testing, needed it for a other customer on saturday.

Still another test was possible:
Using the Hartblei for flatstitching, vs a real stitch, with 3 vertical images of the Canon 50 macro. This will - looking at the horizontal FOV - result in similar images.

So this test not beeing a scientific, but rather about the use of the Superrotator, in a daily photographer's work, like the mine.

I need to work the files, but first have other jobs to do....

Thanks Michael for the input! How does one actually rotate. Do you have to push those cogs?

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Thanks Michael for the input! How does one actually rotate. Do you have to push those cogs?

Click to expand...

Same question here. The Canon TS-E lenses can also rotate by pushing an unlock 'control/cog' on the lens barrel, but they snap lock at 90 degree intervals. How does this work on the Hartblei?

It's too bad your local dealer surprised you at such an unfortunate moment for making the lens available, otherwise I could have produced an MTF curve from a test image of a slanted edge. Having seen some of your test images, I guess I'll ask my local dealer for an evaluation copy for testing on the 1Ds Marks II and III when I get the latter (even finer sampling pitch). The latest prices, of both the lens and the Mark III body in Euros, remains a concern at the current exchange rates though.

Bart

Back again....

Yep Asher, one has to push down (against the center of the lens) these cogs a good bit - which is fine for keeping fix the desired rotation.

It has 16 stops on 360 degree- rotation, so 8 stops for 180 degr. If one can push the cogs down entirely, one can rotate through, but this wasn't possible with the 1 Ds-2, as there's just little space left, for entering the finger, and push down the cogs. The knobs for tilting stay in the way, too.... if you want to rotate for 180 degr; therefore my critic...

A macro shots, about 2:1, it' s not the thumb, but the finger beside it.




With a lens adapter - the copy I could test had a Nikon mount, plus they gave me a Nikon to EOS-adapter, I had several times unsharp images, as the lens adapter isn't build strong enough, to keep that heavy lens straight.

Working on the testimages now, I could take prior to send the adapter away......
I could have the adapter back, but decided to stop testing with that adapter; as it's useless; for getting relevant informations.

And here's a better shot of the cam and the lens; you might notice the importance of a shade:




sorry Bart; I had first to built up my files and backupsystem again, after that desaster with the Sonnet-firmware; it took me about a week, including a new PCI-Express-card, to get it done. At the beginning of that desaster was a - by Sonnet - on its webside wrongly linked firmware-update (!!); which caused kernelpanics, even when booting from the external OS-backup, from a FireWire disk. .

it broke the internal mirror RAID, too, so I had to move some TB arround. Bringing the kext-files from the backup onto the machine didn't worked, and finally the playback of the OS from the external backup failed, as well; so I had to set-up everything completly new. Meanwhile I had to do some assignements.....

Good morning!

once more, - for the last time - I promise, but I hate things to be clumsy, when shooting - the rotation-pin, aka cog, in the lower position; red arrow:



Behind the finger is the ring for the tilt; that one might be unscrewed, for easier access, as I noticed, this morning. There might be some work-arrounds; I could do a few tests with it, only, so look at it as first impression, but IMO, this has to work immediatly. I noticed too, that you have to take much care for not touching the focusring, when rotating.

Now, a comparison of a flatstitch with the Hartblei/Hassi 40 - center shot, then shiftet 10 mm and rotated 180 deg. around to get the 2nd shift - vs a °real° stitch with a panohead, and the Canon 50 mm. Let's have a look at the resulting images, and its FOVs:




The resulting horizontal FOV is nearly identical; easy to see that the Hartblei-image has the vertical size of the the 1 Ds-2 beeing in landscape orientation - 3328 pix - meanwhile for the stitch with the 50 mm, the cam had been in vertical position, with a image height of 4992. As stitcher for the Canon, PTGuiPro was used.

You might notice the lens distortion of the Hartblei; which is quite noticable at 100 %, meanwhile PTGui corrects it in the stitched image from the Canon. It 's possible to correct the distortion of the Hartblei 40 with software, as well; Hartblei recommends Acolens, from Nurizon, there should be some generic lensprofiles for the Hartblei.

As I didn't had it available - I didn't wanted to spend a few 100 € just for testing - I used PS for the flatstitch.

A correction for the rotating-pin:

when Mr. Hochstrasser came today, for picking up the lens, I told him about my problems with the rotating-pin:

We discussed a while arround that issue, then he remembered, that he'd showed me the wrong one; so the' re two rotation buttons; the good one is seen here:



I hope I can show tomorrow the results of the flatstitch....
to late now..

Help is on the way

Michael

Hartblei is aware of the problem with the rear rotation knob which is to be used for the tilt mechanism.
And yes we will change that to an L-form as you thought about. The short knob is a leftover of old
analogue bodies which had to be even closer to the bajonett on some models. As we have decided that this will be a 99 % digital lens for most of the people this is no longer needed.

Too bad tekno did not supply you with the canon mount that we also have sent them. It´s only 4 screws and you have a firm connection to the bajonet mount. The cheap china made adapter that I sent with the nikon mount was just for fast demos to be able to switch between Nikons and Canon bodies.

If you have any additional questions I´d be happy to answer those.

BTW: for your cutout comparison of the Hartblei to the canon Macro you should take a look in Photoshop to the Red, Green and Blue channels(in BW). All of them are much clearer, especially the blue channel has up to 15 % more punch
then with the Canon. This is typical to other results that I have achieved also comparing the Hartblei 120Macro to the Nikon 105 Macro. Simply spoken- the T* coating is absolutely superior.


greetings from Munich

Stefan Steib - CEO Hartblei Optica - München-Kiev
www.hartblei.de