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Challenge: Guns4us: lifesavers, peacemakers or murderers? Do you have images on this?

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This is now a photography challenge to illustrate what you feel guns represents in the 21st Century! Nikolai has, as often he does, shared a rather simplistic idea which in fact has such important depth and meaning. The very bluntness of his stark photograph makes us first try to work out what it is, what kind of weapon and then ask, "So what?". The answers as Nicolas and Jack have shown have major implications on how we view ourselves. My comments are even more argumentative!

Thanks Nikolai, now let's see if we can come up with work, one photograph, a collage perhaps or a series of related pictures. Photography is what we are about, so have a go! Some may have to get new work done. Some, like Brian are off on vacation, (He's shooting in Panama!), so if you have pictures you can post right now, please do so!

Asher






"AB" for "Automatic Fire"

189902978-L.jpg
 
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nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
hmmmm…

not a reason to try to get them attractive, I would prefer a repulsive image.

Can you challenge that my friend Nik?
 
hmmmm…

not a reason to try to get them attractive, I would prefer a repulsive image.

Can you challenge that my friend Nik?

Hm.. this is a possible entry for a "Machine" contest, so I thought that a sub-machine gun in a fully automatic mode would hit the target.:)

As to the repulsive image - adding a bloody bajonet is not necessarily my bag :)

I guess this is just me being me - I simply love powerful guns, strong liquors, fast cars, fine women, etc. :)
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hm.. this is a possible entry for a "Machine" contest, so I thought that a sub-machine gun in a fully automatic mode would hit the target.:)

As to the repulsive image - adding a bloody bajonet is not necessarily my bag :)

I guess this is just me being me - I simply love powerful guns, strong liquors, fast cars, fine women, etc. :)

"AB" for "Automatic Fire"

I thought that was Alien Bees flash system and I couldn't see what kind of unit you had, LOL! Not for one moment did it cross my mind that this was some weapon! I just imagined there was a more advanced control system for AB flash!

Off Topic:

Still, I have no objection to the photograph or to the violence it implies. Violence, I believe, is sometimes needed, as for example, to protect the Blacks in Darfur. I do object to concepts around violence, suggesting that it's evil. This, I believe, comes from our upbringing in the West. We think "that" of violence and guns because of training in Western Judaio-Christian cultures that we descend to uncontrolled evil (and violence) by temptation from "the devil".

Rather I'm convinced that we start out when we are born as both loving and kind and selfish and cruel. It's only by repeated example and drilled in cultured values that a person with personal and social responsibility is made. Wishful think aside, violence is part of mankind and those perceived to be weak can be exploited or killedwith not protection, so I am for guns, but not for guns as toys.

As to "fine women", keep them out of this! I don't want them anywhere near guns, they're dangerous enough as it is!

Asher
 
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nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Oh la la!

I thaught we could keep hoping that mankind would bring us in a near future to be civilized and not behave anymore as animals.

Mother nature -that gave us a brain- has lost, so do I.

We are surrounded by 1st level thinking persons/animals. We would even be unable to forget about our primitive needs?

Too bad, really. No hope, you both make me loosing my never ended (till now!) optimistic view of the world.

"I had a dream!"

The best and only weapon should be our camera!
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
And BTW Asher

LIKE weapons, this is not the fine women who are dangerous, these are the men when there aren't capable to control themselves.

A question of education, once again.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
And BTW Asher

LIKE weapons, this is not the fine women who are dangerous, these are the men when there aren't capable to control themselves.

A question of education, once again.

Men are like spiders drawn to scent of the female to be wrapped in silk and devoured!

But they do it nicely and one can get off in the process!

I'm lucky, my sentence has been postponed indefinately, LOL! :)

As far as man is concerned we ouselves must use the camera to show the beauty and also to use it as a mirror and a beacon of light!

The Weapons? Just the insulation on electric cables. Keeps the animal forces under control until we learn to be nice to everyone!

Asher
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Men are like spiders drawn to scent of the female to be wrapped in silk and devoured!
A really judeo-christian (and maybe muslim too) point of view. Unbrained/animalistic. :-(


As far as man is concerned we ouselves must use the camera to show the beauty and also to use it as a mirror and a beacon of light!
Exactly, then we don't need weapons (the ones that kill)

until we learn to be nice to everyone!

How many centuries will we need?

I guess we have bad teachers if we can't learn faster and need those criminal weapons!
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Asher said:
Men are like spiders drawn to scent of the female to be wrapped in silk and devoured!

A really judeo-christian (and maybe muslim too) point of view. Unbrained/animalistic. :-(


No, it's just hormones and male female wiring! Anyway, I think that's the same in almost all societies!



Exactly, then we don't need weapons (the ones that kill)
There will always be people that use their basic instincts to hunt prey and/or bewitch people with inectious fanatic ideas that we'll always need a protective force. However, they must be educated to be themseves obedient to civil values, not barbaric.


How many centuries will we need?

There aren't enough centuries to get man to lose his basic instincts for greed, trickery, deceit and self-delusion!


Asher
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Asher,

There aren't enough centuries to get man to lose his basic instincts for greed, trickery, deceit and self-delusion!

You must be mixing with the wrong sort of people....

Best wishes,

Ray
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Well, no I don't give-up!

No, it's just hormones and male female wiring! Anyway, I think that's the same in almost all societies!

It is what I said, if one cannot control his own hormones, then it is an animal, not a person with an educated brain!

Reading Asher, it seems he still lives in a prehistoric society… Asher, my friend, come back to Europe, it's much safer!
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ray and Nicolas,

Thinking that man is civilized is delusional. Some people are and some or not. There will be always a percentage who are still dominated by inner animal demons of hunt and grab, take the spoils by force if one is powerful.

We still have to deal with articulate and passionate Hitlers, religious fanatics, Charlie Mansons, Red Brigrades and the like who are able to recruit followers and whip up a hateful destructive xenophobic purpose in otherwise peaceful citizens.

You have it even in England, France and Russia, today.

Civilization is a man-constructed higher order outer layer, like a coating over the resident primal, more selfish forces in us. Some of us have cracks in the coating or it was not fully formed in the first place. In any case, the inner natural tendencies will always be present and in the right stressed cicumstances can break through.

That is what happens to priests who molest children, people who have a fling on a business trip or previously devoted couples who fight each other in a break up or divorce.

"Civilization, like steps to a courthouse, is just a hope and a wish, not necessarily deliverence from evil!"....one of my sayings

Asher
 
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nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
There will be always a percentage who are still dominated by inner animal demons of hunt and grab, take the spoils by force if one is powerful.

We'll always have to deal with articulate and passionate Hitlers, religious fanatics, Charlie Mansons, Red Brigrades and the like who are able to recruit followers and whip up a hateful destructive perhaps xenophobic purpose in otherwise peaceful citizens.Asher

Certainly, but this is not a reason to provide them weapons, easy to buy in the USA. Nor a kinda "passion"/devotion that is not futile! (to be back to the initial post).

Need weapon to protect from Hitlers/Nazis? leave that to the professionals under control of government/people.

Civilians do not need weapons.

We certainly have also in the OLD Europe (as your President liked to call us) some "unbalanced" guys, but not more than in the USA, and it is much more difficult to buy a weapon here. Though still possible but not easily.

For our sake and peace of mind, I still wish weapons not to be in anyone hand (at least the less possible) then, anything that makes weapons nice is a crime to me. BAN weapons!

Police and armies have enough (even too much).

Gandhi didn't have any…
 
Final Version

...or so it seems in the heat of the moment - it's not even noon yet, but it's already 92F=34C and climbing...

I also changed the title to make it less vague (it's an entry for the Machine contest)

Lord Of War

190683499-O.jpg
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Ray and Nicolas,


Asher Kelman said:
We still have to deal with articulate and passionate Hitlers, religious fanatics, Charlie Mansons, Red Brigrades and the like who are able to recruit followers and whip up a hateful destructive xenophobic purpose in otherwise peaceful citizens.

You have it even in England, France and Russia, today.

Civilization is a man-constructed higher order outer layer, like a coating over the resident primal, more selfish forces in us. Some of us have cracks in the coating or it was not fully formed in the first place. In any case, the inner natural tendencies will always be present and in the right stressed cicumstances can break through.

"Civilization, like steps to a courthouse, is just a hope and a wish, not necessarily deliverence from evil!"....one of my sayings
.


Certainly, but this is not a reason to provide them weapons, easy to buy in the USA. Nor a kinda "passion"/devotion that is not futile! (to be back to the initial post).
Interesting point of view, Nicolas. After all, France is still a major arms supplier! Still, not as bas as the Chinese, Iranians and Russians and of course, the US.[/quote]

But fanatics can make their own weapons for mass killings: from fertizer, planes, gasoline trucks, home brewed poison gas etc!

Need weapon to protect from Hitlers/Nazis? leave that to the professionals under control of government/people
Civilians do not need weapons. .
If all airplane passengers were required to carry knives we'd be safer from hijackers! Guns in the U.S.A. are like freedom of speech, a part of the protection against a govenment that goes wrong!


We certainly have also in the OLD Europe (as your President liked to call us) some "unbalanced" guys,
France also has a xenophobic nut in politics with some strong following, LOL~!

For our sake and peace of mind,........BAN weapons!

Then only crooks will have guns!

Gandhi didn't have any…

Gandhi? Gandhi have a gun? He didn't need a gun. In fact that was the whole point; he played on the moral conscience of the British and on their shame in the world arena if they massacred any more people. Without a moral conscience present in the British, it would not have worked to not have a weapon!

Plenty of protesters without weapons have been massacred in almost every country!

Asher
 
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Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Guys,

This shows the benefit of Nikolai's work. It caused us to think! It perhaps wil move some to change things in their own minds! That, BTW can make for art!

Asher
 

Jack_Flesher

New member
Sorry Nik

I really hate weapons. They have nothing to see with futility.


I find the human capicity to *hate* inanimate objects fascinating...

Seems to me, one's energies are better spent hating human action; the action of using said inanimate object in an offensive manner... Just like another could *love* the action of another human using the same object in a heroic manner...

Scenario: A gunman is holding a weapon to your 15 year old daughter's head while he attempts to forceably rape her. At the same time, a SWAT officer lines up his scoped sniper rifle on the would-be rapist, and just as the rapist forces your daughter down on the ground, the SWAT sniper takes the him out with one shot to his head (or better yet, his groin).

Now who do you hate and who do you love... Or do you hate both because of the inanimate object inolved?

Lastly, change the scenario to a drunk behind the wheel of a car killing your child -- do you now hate cars and automobile manufacturers? I think not.

Best,
 
Guys,

This shows the benefit of Nikolai's work. It caused us to think! It perhaps wil move some to change things in their own minds! That, BTW can make for art!

Asher
I was a bit surprised that a simple image of an airsoft-replica toy gun has stirred such a deep discussion, but hey, I agree, this is what any art is about :)
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
I find the human capicity to *hate* inanimate objects fascinating...

Jack,

I think what Nicolas is expressing is a feeling that perhaps "we" (i.e. Western Europe) have moved beyond (state) executions and now guns should be removed too, as part of this attempt to remove killing as a response to violence.

Consider cultural values:

  • Headscarves in France

  • Kosher food

  • Veganism

  • No shoes in an oriental home,

  • Turban for Sikhs

  • Guns for Americans

Here different cultures assign to simple items values that far outweigh obvious logic! Yet people might even sacrifice their lives for these strange values!

Well that's man, still stuck with his inherent weakness for symbolism and group identity taken beyond all reason to the last drop of blood, except for the shoes, LOL!


Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
So, Nicolas, this gun is evil! Why is that so?

Well here is Nikolai's picture of a fake gun:

189902978-L.jpg


Is the picture of the fake gun, with the title "An excericise in Futility" a comment on the ownership of guns as a means to control violence and defend civil society?

You obviously feel that the gun is itself evil. I try to see your point of view by placing myself back in Europe for the perspective of this discussion.

France, (a cradle that received and absorbed fundamental British logic and philosophy on the nature of man's inherent rights which lead to the French ideas on democracy), has much on its collective conscience. The French, I postulate, have, beneath their civility, guilt and pain.

  • The endless chain of executions by the French Revolution: the State at the bequest of the people and the people at the bequest of the State. Yesterday's saviors became today’s accusers and tomorrow's traitors and were in turn beheaded.

  • The suffering by feudalism, kings and Napoleon, himself, spreading war through Europe and wasting France's young.

  • The wounds of two humiliating periods of the German Occupations of the 20th century

France however, feels that with all it has suffered it has given back far more to the world in terms of the remarkable ideas of Liberty, Egalité and Fraternité and therefore, social justice, that in a real way, French Culture can and should be recognized as a source of insight and a pathway to human dignity.

The French, then, if they indeed have a delusion, it's that clear thinking, balance of judgment and civilization radiates from L'Etoile (through the configuration of 12 avenues leading from the most famous triumphal architecture in the modern world, the Arc de Triomphe).

The British too, nursing the wounds of implosion inflicted by one barefoot, unarmed Indian, also waft poetic about uneeded wars and righteousness, as if virtue can be distilled from convienience, self-interest and a strong U.K. currency.

Both the British and the French news services project their national sense of right and wrong!

On the BBC, and on the French news they talk, respectively, of decisions made in the "10 downing Street" or the "Quai d'Orsay" (in the VIIe arrondissement of Paris, part of the left bank of the Seine) as if the world is just waiting for their pronouncements. That is sadly past!

Still, both the British and the French have a feeling that they are considerably more measured in what they do. The both have a better understanding of human nature and responsibility than the Americans. We are in fact viewed as 50 years behind the times except in movies and video games. We are considered as steeped in a mentality where having a gun means something and therefore, in private or through the State becomes the solution.

In a way, it's the idea that the USA is somehow unable to separate the Lone Ranger and John Wayne characters from real civil life where there are many more options than just pulling out a gun or calling up the U.S. cavalry.


So I understand when Nicolas considers a gun evil, it's from the modern, forward-looking, hopeful European perspective. In that constrained context, of course, he is correct.

A gun, he'd answer is made to kill, a car not!

To, me, however, I see Europe as being in a giant "delusionorium", in a drunkenness of hope, (with perhaps a shot of deceit, that, unfortunately, does not deal with the programmed genetics of man, "The Ape" who happens to be able to use a Palm Pilot!

Wishful thinking wont make man civil. We need to work on this from the earliest moments in life and excuse no culture from basic values of treasuring all life. If we could do that, who's need to own a gun, except mounted next to the stuffed lions, bears, deer and moose we once hunted, eons ago.

Right now, a couple of hundred automatic weapons would save the lives of thousands of black Darfur Africans who, in the next year, will be hacked or shot to death and before that, their daughters violated before their eyes.

So, in the absence of development of universal respect for each other, guns, unfortunately are still needed, just for the next 10,000 years or until we finally blow ourselves off the face of the planet!

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Asher, you know, when this picture of mine is finaly displayed in Getty, I want this whole thread printed out and hung next to it :) lol

I hope you do get that successful, Nikolai!

I like the fact that you continue to push yourself, ask harsh, even naive questions but struggle to develop a voice. Your work is remarkably violent: the wars, fires and the gun!

I think that the next step is to find out what your inner voice is trying to articulate. That is one of the hardest things for creative people to do, find their own voice.

In putting your work out here, you risk harsh criticism, being ignored or hostility. The benefit is that you take that risk and in the process might, perhaps, focus your new photography efforts.

I hope it works!

It's a sad commentary on life that I, an avowed romantic and one who treasures life, finds guns to be still needed in many societies.

However, I'm a pragmatic optimist and have faith in the spirit of man to overcome our genetic animal demons which will never go away.

So your simple picture of a fake gun with the Title "An Excercise in Futility" is perhaps a metaphor for that need to deal with the fixed nature of man the hunter and the ridiculous irony of "The gun as a Peacemaker"!
 

Eric Hiss

Member
This thread has been really interesting and I do believe it proves that Nikolai's image has a lot going for it. When I looked at it, I saw it purely as an image and never had any thought towards what or how guns have changed the world and affect our daily lives.

I do like the image.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
This thread has been really interesting and I do believe it proves that Nikolai's image has a lot going for it. When I looked at it, I saw it purely as an image and never had any thought towards what or how guns have changed the world and affect our daily lives.

I do like the image.
Eric,

You comments are helpful.

O.K.! Now we have a topic, lets take a shift.

Here's a challenge. Illustrate how you see guns:

  • "Guns n evil tools", as I probably portrayed Nicolas' opinion in far too simplistic a fashion (Je suis desolée!).

  • "Guns as peacemakers and necessary"

  • "Gun ownership" as a basic right

  • Any mixture of the above or new thoughts.

The image could be just one photograph or a combination or a series of several pictures as a related entity.

Let's see what other photographs we can share on this fascinating but all too serious a topic!

Asher
 
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Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Thought provoking image and my thoughts

When I first saw this image, I thought maybe Nik has a stash of automatic weapons at his home.

Then I thought back to the riots we had here in Los Angeles in 1991/92; How frightening they were. We were under curfew after dark and we had troops rolling in the streets.

One of my friends, female, who does have guns (and a rifle!) invited many friends over her home to stay since she felt "safe". We stayed home, armed only with information Many people bought a supply of food for 10 days in case the riots came towards their homes. My mother, lived fairly close to the area under siege had only her cat and no weapons. Stores and businesses closed. Many shops were looted or burned to the ground.

I know several women who are armed and carry guns with them. One petite lady I know has a small automatic she carries in her pocket - loaded and ready to shoot - every day. Would I want to live in that kind of daily fear?

These women who do so are well trained and practice with their weapons. They are not out to shoot in a warlike setting. Only to defend themselves. From what I ask? I have no images of these weapons, nor do I care to shoot (with my camera) these guns.

My first career was in banking. I was a vice president in "retail" banking. 17 times in 18 years I was involved on the bank robbery. Thankfully, the guns exhibited were never fired during these holdups. Once, we had a robbery where we were lined up with our backs to the masked gunman and our hands in the air. Terrifiying experience. Thankfully, all that was hurt were our psyche. A friend of mine with a Magnum took me out to target shoot after the 1st robbery. He suggested that if I had knowledge of guns, then I would be less afraid.

Okay, now I have knowledge. I can shoot one. If I owned one, would that protect me from the people who use them for their own gain? I cannot answer that question.

Is a gun any different than any other weapon? From the petite revolver to weapons of mass destruction? Is the use any different? Usually they are used for someone's personal gain - and for someone elses defense - be it a polititcal entity or the common street criminal.
 

Eric Hiss

Member
Here's a couple images

Just before my dad died two years back, he gave me several of his guns. He grew up on a farm in Kansas and like most from that time and place he had several rifles which he had used for hunting. He did get one pistol along the way, which I found interesting to look at so I took a few pictures before selling these guns off for him.

Definitely not an artistic venture but I wanted to look at these in an unbiased way for image sake not political. I somehow thought I would use these for stock?

L1052091.jpg


L1052088.jpg
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
That line, Eric, that red line is very interesting.

What is it!

Has a lot of possible meaning!

Asher
 
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