Ivan Garcia
New member
Michael Kamber Has posted an in depth review of the Leica M8. A worthy read for all.
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Leica M8 IRAQ Field Test
- Thread starter Ivan Garcia
- Start date
Dawid Loubser
Member
Hi Ivan,
I was just about to come here post the same article! To be honest, after reading his (very insightful) article, I am sorely disappointed in the M8. Many a time I have almost convinced myself to get one, but I am afraid the circumstantial evidence seem to indicate that, apart from compactness and the accurate rangefiner focusing, it cannot compete with even 6-year-old Canon technology in any single way.
Leice had better come out with an M9 fast, if they wish to save face. As it stands now, it may have been better for them to have never released this camera in the first place. With the endless repair hassles, surely it must be costing them more than what they are making from it?
Over 40,000 images, my Canon 1D MkIIN has never so much as produced a single image where I could point to camera and indicate that it had done something wrong - it is quite simply perfect, with me always being the limiting factor.
I can really understand why people buy this camera, I sorely want one, and want one that *works* - but as it stands, it is a major, major disappointment.
But now - the M8 owners here (including Asher!) - what are your true experiences? Have your M8s served you flawlessly thus far? Or do you learn to expect, and live with, the issues?
I was just about to come here post the same article! To be honest, after reading his (very insightful) article, I am sorely disappointed in the M8. Many a time I have almost convinced myself to get one, but I am afraid the circumstantial evidence seem to indicate that, apart from compactness and the accurate rangefiner focusing, it cannot compete with even 6-year-old Canon technology in any single way.
Leice had better come out with an M9 fast, if they wish to save face. As it stands now, it may have been better for them to have never released this camera in the first place. With the endless repair hassles, surely it must be costing them more than what they are making from it?
Over 40,000 images, my Canon 1D MkIIN has never so much as produced a single image where I could point to camera and indicate that it had done something wrong - it is quite simply perfect, with me always being the limiting factor.
I can really understand why people buy this camera, I sorely want one, and want one that *works* - but as it stands, it is a major, major disappointment.
But now - the M8 owners here (including Asher!) - what are your true experiences? Have your M8s served you flawlessly thus far? Or do you learn to expect, and live with, the issues?
Ivan Garcia
New member
You know.. I am quiet disappointed.
An award winning Photo journo has given a very negative review on the Leica M8, a camera which everyone thought would be as good, (if no better) than the Leicas of yesteryear. Yet, not a single M8 owner in this forum has anything to say to counter his opinion.
Is a sad day indeed.
RIP Leica, who has served us well for over half a century.
An award winning Photo journo has given a very negative review on the Leica M8, a camera which everyone thought would be as good, (if no better) than the Leicas of yesteryear. Yet, not a single M8 owner in this forum has anything to say to counter his opinion.
Is a sad day indeed.
RIP Leica, who has served us well for over half a century.
Funny to read this today
This morning I just unpacked my R8 which had come back from service. While my DMR does not have all the problems that this reviewer had with his M8, it did take months for it to return from service. My canon gear makes the round trip to service and back to my door in less than a week. If there's anything wrong with Leica its their outdated service dept. Seriously I sent it in to service and did not hear anything for weeks after which I got a mailed letter stating how much the repair estimate would be and asked me to mail back a response whether I would like the repair or not. Are you kidding? This is 2008...
Well to their defense - the leica cameras both M8 and DMR are capable of producing superlative files quite noticeably better than that of my canons. I'm glad I don't have to take them out to the battlefield though.
This morning I just unpacked my R8 which had come back from service. While my DMR does not have all the problems that this reviewer had with his M8, it did take months for it to return from service. My canon gear makes the round trip to service and back to my door in less than a week. If there's anything wrong with Leica its their outdated service dept. Seriously I sent it in to service and did not hear anything for weeks after which I got a mailed letter stating how much the repair estimate would be and asked me to mail back a response whether I would like the repair or not. Are you kidding? This is 2008...
Well to their defense - the leica cameras both M8 and DMR are capable of producing superlative files quite noticeably better than that of my canons. I'm glad I don't have to take them out to the battlefield though.
Mike Shimwell
New member
You know.. I am quiet disappointed.
An award winning Photo journo has given a very negative review on the Leica M8, a camera which everyone thought would be as good, (if no better) than the Leicas of yesteryear. Yet, not a single M8 owner in this forum has anything to say to counter his opinion.
Is a sad day indeed.
RIP Leica, who has served us well for over half a century.
To be fair there is a thread in the digital rangefinders section where Tim and Asher have discussed their happiness with their cameras. I found that a financially dangerous thread to read though!
Mike
Tim Mimpriss
New member
You know.. I am quiet disappointed.
An award winning Photo journo has given a very negative review on the Leica M8, a camera which everyone thought would be as good, (if no better) than the Leicas of yesteryear. Yet, not a single M8 owner in this forum has anything to say to counter his opinion.
Is a sad day indeed.
RIP Leica, who has served us well for over half a century.
I love my M8, and do not regret selling my Canon 5D and lenses to fund it. I like good optics and manual control, and the images produced by its 10MP sensor do not disappoint. Mine, an early model needing the hardware upgrade, has performed flawlessly.
But the M8 does have serious defects: the sudden death syndrome is unacceptable in a quality camera, and the noise levels at high ISO are most disappointing. I do not often use AWB, but my impression is that it now works well with the latest firmware upgrade. The 1.3x crop factor is a disappointment but inevitable with the short lens to sensor distance of an RF camera, given the current state of the technology.
MK's comments on auto-exposure puzzle me. The M8 has a very simple (?crude) centre-weighted measuring system, which I find works consistently. The problem is that you must use it intelligently and select the appropriate point to meter from and then use AE lock. It's clearly not as sophisticated as the multi-segment metering on DSLRs, but I find it easier to understand and use sensibly.
Leica clearly had to make serious compromises in designing a digital M, and they have produced a good package which is easy to use alongside M film cameras, but still has serious problems. I hope however that Solms is listening and will take note of constructive criticism, and that the next iteration will lead to a much better product.
Tim Mimpriss
scott kirkpatrick
Member
...
Yet, not a single M8 owner in this forum has anything to say to counter his opinion.
If I thought anything useful was accomplished by pointing out the merits and flaws in a review of a two-year old camera that I am still using very happily, I would do so. But my impression is that most of the voluminous posting in reaction to the review is either defensive, or challenges by those who didn't work with the M8 and now feel proud for their perspicacity. I don't wish to be found in either group.
Get thee behind me, trolls!
scott
Ivan Garcia
New member
Although this camera is 2 years old, it is still in the market, and some people may consider purchasing it. So, when an award winning Photographer who has used leicas for over 20 years, has such negative things to say about this particular camera, potential buyers may like to hear other users comments.
BTW you won´t find trolls here.
BTW you won´t find trolls here.
scott kirkpatrick
Member
BTW you won´t find trolls here.
Perhaps troll is too strong a word, because a true troll poses a question to start a food fight, then lies back under his bridge, chuckling happily without making any further contribution. I hope there are none of those here.
But what I disagree with is that when the Leica is M8 is challenged in an emotional way (Kamber seems to be a brave guy, but he is not particularly perceptive about his equipment, and his review does appear way late in the process) the true believers must rise to the defense of their camera. I prefer to ignore the whole matter, or average Kamber's input with that of the many other users at this point.
scott
Ivan Garcia
New member
Due to a misundertanding in translation. I decided to deleted this post
Last edited:
Jeff Donovan
New member
This morning I just unpacked my R8 which had come back from service. While my DMR does not have all the problems that this reviewer had with his M8, it did take months for it to return from service. My canon gear makes the round trip to service and back to my door in less than a week. If there's anything wrong with Leica its their outdated service dept. Seriously I sent it in to service and did not hear anything for weeks after which I got a mailed letter stating how much the repair estimate would be and asked me to mail back a response whether I would like the repair or not. Are you kidding? This is 2008...
Well to their defense - the leica cameras both M8 and DMR are capable of producing superlative files quite noticeably better than that of my canons. I'm glad I don't have to take them out to the battlefield though.
Eric,
Many major electronics companies base their service hubs in either Louisville or Memphis. That way either UPS or Fedex need to make only one flight to get your camera to the center and back. I'm guessing Leica either services everything in Germany or is so backed up fixing defective M8s that it's killing their turnaround times.
I saw this article as well but clearly was not the first.
scott kirkpatrick
Member
Leica service
It is clearly a weak point that Leica appears to be trying to address. Since service always generates some complaints and less often gets plaudits ("what, I paid X gazillion dollars for this camera and it breaks?"), it will take time to see improvements, but there are obvious places where improvements are needed.
After almost two trouble-free years with the M8, I've been to Leica USA twice recently, with mixed results. I took in an older 28/2.0 asph lens for the mount change that will add a 6-bit bar code. I was in NJ that week so I dropped it off and picked it up the next day. Although they promised to call me when the job was done, I had to call them. It was done the next day, but a little checking showed that it no longer focussed to infinity, and front focused significantly at distances like 0.7 to 2 m. So it went back again, this time by USPS. Another phone call and an email got me the work order number, but no information. After a week, a copy of the work order reached me by surface mail, with a time estimate of 4 to 6 weeks, and a shortened description of the problem. My problem description note sent with the lens was not passed to the technicians. An email asking what's happening drew no response, but when I called a few days later (they answer about one call in three), I was told the lens had already been shipped back, and given a UPS tracking number. Of course it was shipped to my home with a signature required, in contradiction to my instructions (no one is home during the day), and that took an extra few days to sort out. Focus improved but not perfect. Testing for this at home is hard, and I'm still not 100% sure.
Problem two had happened in the meantime. My December 2006 M8's shutter stuck, closed but not rewound, requiring a service. Shipped to NJ, called, emailed, confirmed receipt and got work order number back by email. Received copy of the work order a week later by mail. Camera came back a few weeks later (shipped to a place where signatures are possible) with shutter working, but without its battery. Battery was noted as present on the workorder, so they immediately (after call, email...) offered to send me a new one, sent to home but without requiring a signature. It came three times last week, with the carrier refusing to leave it without a signature, even though I signed their slips. So next week I am to visit UPS's package limbo office before it is sent back to NJ.
Each of the items returned from service came with a questionnaire about service quality, and a letter from Roger Horn, president of Leica USA requesting feedback and even asking how their service compares with independent service operations, such as DAG. Obviously their means of communication with customers needs improvement, such as using the internet and email, and their internal communications seem poor as well. I'll write them when this is finally over, hence this post as a practice...
scott
It is clearly a weak point that Leica appears to be trying to address. Since service always generates some complaints and less often gets plaudits ("what, I paid X gazillion dollars for this camera and it breaks?"), it will take time to see improvements, but there are obvious places where improvements are needed.
After almost two trouble-free years with the M8, I've been to Leica USA twice recently, with mixed results. I took in an older 28/2.0 asph lens for the mount change that will add a 6-bit bar code. I was in NJ that week so I dropped it off and picked it up the next day. Although they promised to call me when the job was done, I had to call them. It was done the next day, but a little checking showed that it no longer focussed to infinity, and front focused significantly at distances like 0.7 to 2 m. So it went back again, this time by USPS. Another phone call and an email got me the work order number, but no information. After a week, a copy of the work order reached me by surface mail, with a time estimate of 4 to 6 weeks, and a shortened description of the problem. My problem description note sent with the lens was not passed to the technicians. An email asking what's happening drew no response, but when I called a few days later (they answer about one call in three), I was told the lens had already been shipped back, and given a UPS tracking number. Of course it was shipped to my home with a signature required, in contradiction to my instructions (no one is home during the day), and that took an extra few days to sort out. Focus improved but not perfect. Testing for this at home is hard, and I'm still not 100% sure.
Problem two had happened in the meantime. My December 2006 M8's shutter stuck, closed but not rewound, requiring a service. Shipped to NJ, called, emailed, confirmed receipt and got work order number back by email. Received copy of the work order a week later by mail. Camera came back a few weeks later (shipped to a place where signatures are possible) with shutter working, but without its battery. Battery was noted as present on the workorder, so they immediately (after call, email...) offered to send me a new one, sent to home but without requiring a signature. It came three times last week, with the carrier refusing to leave it without a signature, even though I signed their slips. So next week I am to visit UPS's package limbo office before it is sent back to NJ.
Each of the items returned from service came with a questionnaire about service quality, and a letter from Roger Horn, president of Leica USA requesting feedback and even asking how their service compares with independent service operations, such as DAG. Obviously their means of communication with customers needs improvement, such as using the internet and email, and their internal communications seem poor as well. I'll write them when this is finally over, hence this post as a practice...
scott
Dawid Loubser
Member
Scott (et al),
Sorry, but your service experience sounds disgraceful - utterly pathetic, in fact. I am all the way out here in South Africa (wayyyy down on the third-world ladder) and even here I have never received anything but good service and clear communication from Canon.
Even the one time when they (I believe) screwed up my 1D Mk II N completely (or, anyway, they were unable to fix a imaging noise issue after a service - may have been a defective unit to begin with) communication was always open, they gave me a loaner while they had my camera, and ended up replacing it.
On a camera which surely costs a heck of a lot more to manufacture (in 'real' terms - technologies and materials, economies of scale of the 'hand built' Leica aside) and which is a far, far more complex piece of equipment (sorry, the M8 can produce great low-iso images on a good day, but it's still a very simplistic camera).
No, I say again, Leica really needs to get their act together if they wish to survive this age (they really almost had me as a customer, but the first time I held an M8 and had to dig in a menu to set ISO or exposure compensation, I thought "naaah"...), and I am not sure if re-branding Panasonic cameras will be enough.
They have so much potential, and such heritage, but it has all but been thrown away. What good are the 'best' lenses if you can't get them serviced or adjusted decently?
Sorry, but your service experience sounds disgraceful - utterly pathetic, in fact. I am all the way out here in South Africa (wayyyy down on the third-world ladder) and even here I have never received anything but good service and clear communication from Canon.
Even the one time when they (I believe) screwed up my 1D Mk II N completely (or, anyway, they were unable to fix a imaging noise issue after a service - may have been a defective unit to begin with) communication was always open, they gave me a loaner while they had my camera, and ended up replacing it.
On a camera which surely costs a heck of a lot more to manufacture (in 'real' terms - technologies and materials, economies of scale of the 'hand built' Leica aside) and which is a far, far more complex piece of equipment (sorry, the M8 can produce great low-iso images on a good day, but it's still a very simplistic camera).
No, I say again, Leica really needs to get their act together if they wish to survive this age (they really almost had me as a customer, but the first time I held an M8 and had to dig in a menu to set ISO or exposure compensation, I thought "naaah"...), and I am not sure if re-branding Panasonic cameras will be enough.
They have so much potential, and such heritage, but it has all but been thrown away. What good are the 'best' lenses if you can't get them serviced or adjusted decently?
doug anderson
New member
The photos he posts here are no more technically competent than anything I can shoot with my Nikon D300. I'm not comparing myself to him as a photographer: clearly he's a pro and I'm an amateur, but the Leica itself is disappointing.
Give me my D300 and my gold ring 17-35 2.8 any day.
Give me my D300 and my gold ring 17-35 2.8 any day.
Gary Ayala
New member
Having shot combat with both Leica and Nikon film cameras, I can empathize with Micheal Kamber's frustrations. It is hard to imagine anything worse than being in a firefight, you're lining up a shot, your heart is pumping pure adrenaline and about to burst through your chest ... and your $5,000 camera fails.
I am surprised that Kamber's M8 hasn't been tossed out of a Humvee and lays resting atop some God forsaken sand dune with a hole the size of a 45 caliber through the sensor and Micheal's sidearm is lighter by one less bullet.
Or having returned from a night patrol only to find that the images, the entire lot, trash ... because of noise when your older and much less expensive 5D images were acceptable. Again, had that been moi, the M8 probably would have ended up in the community crapper waiting to be burnt by the K-P gang in the morning.
My Leicas were such sweet pieces of equipment. Solid as a brick, yet capable of delivering such fine and delicate detail ... I have fond memories of my M-4's. Even in this thread those who defend the camera do so with reservations and exceptions ... sudden death, don't use AWB ... and just don't shoot at high ISO ... available light ... low light shooting are SOP for a photo journalist. Nothing finer than focusing in low light with a rangefinder.
After reading Michael's testimony of the M8 I am appalled and ashamed. Appalled and ashamed that Leica would actually market such a product, charge $5,000 and rate it as professional.
Remember that journalism and in particular combat are probably the toughest test and environment for photographic equipment. The Leica M3 and M4 were equal to that challenge.
The M8 that Kamber used is not the Leica M of old.
Gary
I am surprised that Kamber's M8 hasn't been tossed out of a Humvee and lays resting atop some God forsaken sand dune with a hole the size of a 45 caliber through the sensor and Micheal's sidearm is lighter by one less bullet.
Or having returned from a night patrol only to find that the images, the entire lot, trash ... because of noise when your older and much less expensive 5D images were acceptable. Again, had that been moi, the M8 probably would have ended up in the community crapper waiting to be burnt by the K-P gang in the morning.
My Leicas were such sweet pieces of equipment. Solid as a brick, yet capable of delivering such fine and delicate detail ... I have fond memories of my M-4's. Even in this thread those who defend the camera do so with reservations and exceptions ... sudden death, don't use AWB ... and just don't shoot at high ISO ... available light ... low light shooting are SOP for a photo journalist. Nothing finer than focusing in low light with a rangefinder.
After reading Michael's testimony of the M8 I am appalled and ashamed. Appalled and ashamed that Leica would actually market such a product, charge $5,000 and rate it as professional.
Remember that journalism and in particular combat are probably the toughest test and environment for photographic equipment. The Leica M3 and M4 were equal to that challenge.
The M8 that Kamber used is not the Leica M of old.
Gary