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More neutral than almost all other gray cards

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
From the ColorRight Max site:

"The COLORRIGHT MAX gray patches are guaranteed to be more neutral than almost all other gray cards on the market."

How can you argue with that?

Best regards,

Doug
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Real World Color Correction

In "FreeCreditCardReport.com" they want to make you believe that having 24/7 access to your credit score by three different companies will improve your way of life. We have a similar issue with color cards.

I use WhiBal™. Why? First Michael Tapes was one of the first fellows to invest the effort to produce a suitable grey reference card that's

  • Become an industry standard
  • Waterproof
  • Can be regenerated by sanding
  • That's checked against standards
  • Fits in my wallet

WhiBal™ is the product of a guy who's contributed to important imaging software, is a fine photographer and trusted person. He also helped us setup OPF when we launched in 2006 and did this for free.

I know a little more of Drew Strickland of ProPhoto.home than one can glean from the obvious. In my personal dealings with him he's a gentleman and has shown kindness. My take is that does try to lead a moral life. Then he's the established wedding photographer who purchased the fora section of RobGalbraith.com. The latter was, at the time, the premium environment for serious photography discussion. He took the risk and the responsibility of following in Rob's footsteps. Since then he's built the website with paid membership and rewards for posting! Obviously some people like this. He's now gotten into the market of grey standards with his own versions and special claims, here.

I have no doubt that in many cases Drew's product will work, in spite of the "scientific leaps of faith" his discussions take. I have the second version of his device and have not tested it as yet and will do so when I can get the latest version.

Asher
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Define terms in maintaining image color as what exist in real life.

Doug,

Now we've mentioned some players, what about the rulers we might use in this discussion?

Define "neutral" and "almost"!

Where are the deltas, (differences between ideal and measured) for each wavelength?

What about effect of exposure to light on longterm stability?

What about different batches?

How far does one have to depart from perfect neutrality to have practical influence on perception?

Do all wavelength deltas have the same power to alter perception of the color in an image?

Asher
 
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Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
..."The COLORRIGHT MAX gray patches are guaranteed to be more neutral than almost all other gray cards on the market."

How can you argue with that?
..
Nice catch Doug. Definitely, certainly, assuredly better than almost all other catches of yours.

No arguments from me ;-)

Cheers,
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
What are the choices for color reference in processing image files?

Some of us can use the color sliders to correct hue. This requires experience. The fact is that we can easily correct color by using:

  1. Color neutral reference (A Kodak grey card, WhiBal™, concrete wall or sheet of white paper without brighteners) included in one shot in that shot. One click in that area in processing the file and the color is close to perfect.

  2. The camera to take a reference shot with a "neutral surface" (white sheet of paper, table cloth, concrete or grey card such as WhiBal™ One can use a ground glass or neutral plastic cup or an ExpoDisc™.

  3. An ad hoc reference spot of, for example, the white of eyes, pupil, teeth, pavement, white object, shirt, stripe on a dress, black suit and so forth and se which of these works to my eyes.

So which do you use? What is not good enough about what you do now? Why do you need something else?
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
Asher

you might add the colorchecker from Macbeth; for colorcritical work as art and reproductions, it's my favourite. From all its patches, the RGB-values are known in quite a lot of colorspaces.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

The interesting thing to me is that, after an original marketing campaign for the Color Parrot and its successor, the ColorRight, that relentlessly emphasized use in setting the custom white balance feature of the camera, and derided color correction during post processing, we now find the ColorRight and its not-quite-white pal, the ColorRight Max, promoted in the context of color correction in post processing.

Now, I'm highly in favor of measurement reference items being very accurate. Still, we all know that in photographic color correction, measuring the right thing is far more critical than how accurately it is measured. And in fact is is rare that the theoretically-ideal color correction produces the result we (or the client) finds "most pleasing".

It is ironic that, while trumpeting the supposed great conformity to neutrality of the "neutral" sectors of the ColorRight Max, the manufacturer points out that its great advantage is that by using its other sectors, one can shift the color balance from the theoretical ideal to an arbitrary "pleasing" result.

Evidently, everybody in the whole football team has slept with the same virgin.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Michael Tapes

OPF Administrator/Moderator
Asher

you might add the colorchecker from Macbeth; for colorcritical work as art and reproductions, it's my favourite. From all its patches, the RGB-values are known in quite a lot of colorspaces.

Michael,

With all due respect, the ColorChecker is not all that consistent when you are talking about a critical color reference. Do not mis-interpret my comment. The CC is a great tool and I use them and I sell them (because it is a useful tool). But I also measure them fairly regularly, and they are different from batch to batch, and quite different the longer apart the batches are apart. And in fact the CC "section" of the SG card, is not very close to the big CC itself. The grayscale is pretty good, but the colors do vary.

Again, the CC is a good product but it is not as perfect. It is the next best thing to a WhiBal that I have found as a neutral reference, but one does not know precisely the colors of an individual CC. The published specs that one sees for the color chips are generally averages of many many cards.

Just FYI, not trying to pick a fight <g>.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Asher,

Now we've mentioned some players, what about the rulers we might use in this discussion?

Define "neutral"

If we are speaking of a reflective target, then two (different) ideal concepts of interest are:

Spectral uniformity. This means that, over the visual band, the reflective spectral density is absolutely flat.

Chromatic neutrality. This could mean that, when illuminated with a certain illuminant (light with some particular spectral power density), the CIE chromaticity of the reflected light will be the same as the chromaticity of the same illuminance reflected from a "spectrally uniform" reflective surface.

If we have the former, we will have the latter, but not necessarily conversely.

and [define] "almost"!

Well, of course that means, "not precisely". We will get later into some discussion about "quantifying" chromatic discrepancies and setting "bogeys" for such.

Where are the deltas, (differences between ideal and measured) for each wavelength?

This of course ideally would be presented as continuous curve over the visible band, although of course values at a large number of discrete wavelengths can be perfectly useful.

What about effect of exposure to light on longterm stability?

What about different batches?

Important issues.

How far does one have to depart from perfect neutrality to have practical influence on perception?

That is a very complex issue, and depends on the context in which a visual comparison is made. We must contemplate a defined premise of "comparison" before it is even meaningful to give even a "broad" idea of how much discrepancy in the properties of the measurement target is consequential.

We can for example speak in terms of the minimum perceptible shift in the chromaticity of a viewed image region in an A-B comparison.

Or, at the other end of the range, we can speak of how much of a departure from the "theoretical ideal" of color correction will lead to a delivered image which (viewed under a specified illumination) will "not seem natural" to an observer (and this answer is greatly influenced by the nature of the "scene"). (Often here we find that an image with a substantial departure from "theoretically ideal" color correction will be scored highest by an observer.)

Do all wavelength deltas have the same power to alter perception of the color in an image?

We need to be careful about for what we are speaking of "different wavelength deltas". Perhaps from the context here, we are speaking of imperfection in the reflective spectral density function of a white balance measurement target.

There can be innumerable departures of that function from "flat" that will cause the same shift in chromaticity of any particular region in a corrected image (even if we are speaking of operation under essentially the same illuminant).

We can have a measurement target whose spectral density function departs considerably from flat which will nevertheless (for operation with illuminations having a certain spectral power density) will produce "theoretically-ideal" color correction.

And we can have another target with a wholly-different reflective spectral density function, for which the same will nevertheless be true.

So its all maddeningly complicated.

But, take heart. These are all concepts of color science, and this thread is about the ColorRight tool, in connection with which we been assured that scientific concepts need not be fooled around with.

Best regards,

Doug
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
Michael,

With all due respect, the ColorChecker is not all that consistent when you are talking about a critical color reference. Do not mis-interpret my comment. The CC is a great tool and I use them and I sell them (because it is a useful tool). But I also measure them fairly regularly, and they are different from batch to batch, and quite different the longer apart the batches are apart. And in fact the CC "section" of the SG card, is not very close to the big CC itself. The grayscale is pretty good, but the colors do vary.

Again, the CC is a good product but it is not as perfect. It is the next best thing to a WhiBal that I have found as a neutral reference, but one does not know precisely the colors of an individual CC. The published specs that one sees for the color chips are generally averages of many many cards.

Just FYI, not trying to pick a fight <g>.

Michael,
I'm aware that you've studied these problems much further than many others - including me - so thanks for claryfying.

I mentioned the colorchecker for a RAW-workflow, using the 200/200/200 patch for WB, and the other gray patches for contrast. I'm aware, that depending on the surfaces of the artwork, glossy vs mat, materiality of paper and canvas, etc one has to leave the law of the strict numbers.

Off course it can't replace a proof for color-critical work. But still it's a valuable tool, by showing the right track, whithout getting lost in to many patches.

Which card would you suggest then?
 

Michael Tapes

OPF Administrator/Moderator
Michael,
[snip]

Off course it can't replace a proof for color-critical work. But still it's a valuable tool, by showing the right track, without getting lost in to many patches.

Which card would you suggest then?

The CC is the best of its kind, so no need to replace when needing an internal color reference (using your CC against itself). For strict accurate color balance the WhiBal is more neutral if for no other reason that we only ship the really neutral ones, given that we measure each one, both sides and mark the super neutral side for use. So when you get your WhiBal you are assured that it meets our spec of 100% neutral +/- 0.5 in a* and b* channels. A CC is more like +/- 1.0 and sometime a little further out, and the darker gray patches can go further.

Bottom line. The CC is a good WB reference (lightest gray) and a very handy internal reference but do not be fooled into thinking that it will match the numbers that you see published. Even the numbers that Gretag (now X-Rite) publish are acknowledged to be averaged. So I have no argument with the CC in that it is not represented in its specs to be anything that it is not. It is folklore and the "experts" that mislead people to thinking that it is an exact standard. Again, it is a very handy tool when used properly.

For example when comparing different raw converter color renderings, it is a handy test to see in the ballpark how the converter does, and it is a perfect test to shoot the same CC and compare the renderings, because the same CC was shot. But, for example when you look at a DPR camera test and it shows you the CC renderings of the camera based on different conversions or JPEG camera settings...you can compare those that are there, but do not compare to your CC because it may be different.

Now having said all of that...X-Rite is a good company and it could be that the last change to the CC (which had major color differences) is the last change and they can maintain it from now on as their manufacturing processes improve. That I have no idea. So my comments are all based on past experience up to about 6 months ago, which was the last time I investigated.

Whew!
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
I just bought a mini CC for use with the new DNG Profile Editor, I do a lot of shooting in nasty lighting situations but they are consistent, I do a lot of work in the same wedding halls, etc, etc.

To be honest they are so expensive that I don't mind if it doesn't work out, the resale value is very good. Heck, I'm buying it cheaper new from my pro store than they are sold on ebay!

I still have and use my whibal, I've bought them since the original whibal, it was heaven sent in the days of the rather complicated colour of the 1Ds mkI.

To be honest I usually tweak the whibal reading, not that it's innaccurate, far from it, just that accurate ain't always flattering! :) I'm hoping that profiles created with the CC will give me a closer baseline for facial tones in mixed or complicated lighting regardless of the WB setting.

Here's to hoping!
 

Drew Strickland

New member
To be honest I usually tweak the whibal reading, not that it's innaccurate, far from it, just that accurate ain't always flattering! :) I'm hoping that profiles created with the CC will give me a closer baseline for facial tones in mixed or complicated lighting regardless of the WB setting.

Not likely to be that helpful unless you continue to use the whibal to get to neutral first.

Of course, you could just try out this new ColorRight MAX thingy that everyone is discussing. :) It even works on different skin types.
 

Drew Strickland

New member
From the ColorRight Max site:

"The COLORRIGHT MAX gray patches are guaranteed to be more neutral than almost all other gray cards on the market."

How can you argue with that?

Best regards,

Doug

Exactly.

Well, let's see, there are at least a dozen gray card type products on the market, with more coming on every month it seems.

So, to keep it simple we simply give a spec and a summary.
 

Drew Strickland

New member
I know a little more of Drew Strickland of ProPhoto.home than one can glean from the obvious. In my personal dealings with him he's a gentleman and has shown kindness. My take is that does try to lead a moral life. Then he's the established wedding photographer who purchased the fora section of RobGalbraith.com. The latter was, at the time, the premium environment for serious photography discussion. He took the risk and the responsibility of following in Rob's footsteps. Since then he's built the website with paid membership and rewards for posting! Obviously some people like this. He's now gotten into the market of grey standards with his own versions and special claims, here.

I have no doubt that in many cases Drew's product will work, in spite of the "scientific leaps of faith" his discussions take. I have the second version of his device and have not tested it as yet and will do so when I can get the latest version.

Asher

Thanks for the kind words, Asher.

Which version of the MAX (neutral or portrait) would you like Asher? I'll drop you one to review.
 

Drew Strickland

New member
The interesting thing to me is that, after an original marketing campaign for the Color Parrot and its successor, the ColorRight, that relentlessly emphasized use in setting the custom white balance feature of the camera, and derided color correction during post processing, we now find the ColorRight and its not-quite-white pal, the ColorRight Max, promoted in the context of color correction in post processing.

Now, I'm highly in favor of measurement reference items being very accurate. Still, we all know that in photographic color correction, measuring the right thing is far more critical than how accurately it is measured. And in fact is is rare that the theoretically-ideal color correction produces the result we (or the client) finds "most pleasing".

Doug

Yep, you got me there, Doug.

The MAX wasn't really my idea. I still prefer to get it right in camera.

The MAX was made at the specific request of a number of very persistent wedding photographers on another forum (not pph). My feeling is that the customer is "almost" :) always right. I finally listened and spent a long time developing this tool.

It is not intended to be a mass market tool. Of the 11 million DSLR's estimated to be sold in 2008 only a very tiny percentage of people use post production tools of any kind.

This is a unique tool for specific types of professionals. But, who knows, I could be wrong. The MAX may be where it's at.

It's interesting that Michael seems to be contemplating adding some warm patches to his tool. However, the MAX does not follow any of the other tools in regards to the skin selector. The results are nothing like the results from a set of warm cards.

Do you want one to review as well, Doug?

I thought you were over reviewing white balance things? I'd be happy to send you and Carla your own copy. I appreciate the work you did with the earlier tools. Just fyi, the grays are very neutral, most of them are under the same spec that Michael states +/- .5 in the a and b lab channels. But, I don't see much need for getting into a spec war, so we just state +/- 1 in the a and b channels.
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Drew,

With the ColorRight products you can "regenerate" with a touch of windex, or simple soap and water.
Windex.

Boy, that's great. There are few Lambertian surfaces that can be regenerated that easily.

It is Lambertian, isn't it?

Best regards,

Doug
 

Drew Strickland

New member
I rounded up a few reluctant volunteers (uh, models), dug out an old black muslin and a few single nasty light sources. Perhaps these may help give you a better feel how the tool responds under different horrid light sources you might encounter on a typical shoot. They are not meant to be taken as examples of how to properly light anything in the studio.

Please Note: All the Jpeg Images Below Are All Jpeg Samples Straight Out of the Camera using Auto White Balance.

They have not been corrected at all.

Please download the Raw files below the shot and click around on the patches to see the results of the ColorRight MAX.


Shot 1: Single Tungsten Light Source, Straight out of Camera, Auto White Balance
tungstensooc.jpg



Download this Raw file:
http://www.colorright.com/opf/tungstensooc.CR2


Shot 2: Single Tungsten Light Source, Straight out of Camera, Auto White Balance
tungstensooc2.jpg



Download this Raw file:
http://www.colorright.com/opf/tungstensooc2.CR2


Shot 3: Single "Daylight" balanced fluorescent Light Source, Straight out of Camera, Auto White Balance
daylightfluorescentsooc.jpg



Download this Raw File:
http://www.colorright.com/opf/daylightfluorescentsooc.CR2
 
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Drew Strickland

New member
Yes, of course the WhiBal can be cleaned like this as well. But if the dirt is stubborn, one can use the sandpaper. Advantage WhiBal. <g>

Ah, but if the surface is glass instead of rubber/ foam it is highly unlikely to attract dirt in the first place.

The only thing the windex is for would be the occasional fingerprint. But, oh yeah, that glass has been treated and doesn't smudge.

Just having fun with you guys. You know I respect you all.

The WhiBal is a great tool for the price. The ColorRight MAX is obviously not aimed at the same market. It does much more, but also costs a lot more. It is a specialty tool for specialty applications.

If you want/ need good skin tones, you know who you are.
 

Drew Strickland

New member
Here's some early feedback on the ColorRight MAX.


"The color Max working better than I would have hoped for!

In my first few tests with the ColorrightMAX, I really have to say that it is one of the easiest and most effective tools for proper color balance that I have ever used. The ColorRight is to white balance as an incident light meter is to proper lighting. In a single session my students have a striking and dramatic demonstration of the effects of proper white balance setting vs any of the presets. You can literally put away your color strips, gray-scale, white sheets and set a perfect balance as easily as you would a single shutter release.

Such an amazing device, you have to wonder why someone didn't think of it earlier!"

Paul Cole
Mainely Creations / digital photography instructor



"Okay, I LIKE THIS thing - lol. This is hilarious - instead of "white balancing" on gray or white spots, I am "skin color balancing" using the skin color patches on this Colorright MAX disk thingy!!!

Oh, just in case it wan't obvious this MAX disk also does the instant normal white balance thru the lens just like the original Colorright or Expodisk, but it also adds the new skin color tool so when you take a picture of it (much like a gray card) you can use the eye dropper tool in your software...to tune in the skin to the right color by clicking on the skin tone patches. Kind of like gray or white balancing - but instead - you are skin color balancing. I LOVE IT!!!"

Peter Gregg
Creator of www.abetterbouncecard.com
Professional Photographer


"No fiddling whatsoever; no trip to PS to worry about overall skin balance."

"...On the engagement shoots I've been shooting with the ColorRight Max, I've had a mix of Caucasian skin types, but also African Canadian and Southeast Asian too. In each case, once I had adjusted for density, the ColorRight dialled in the skin tone, or so close to it that it's a lot less work to get right."

Jamie Roberts
Professional Photographer
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Drew,
Have you seen Sara's new article over at Pro Photo Home?

Well, I just read it. Interesting.

She makes an interesting argument regarding the obsession with numbers in an artistic field such as photography.

Yes, it seem to be that she says it really doesn't matter how close to neutral a WB target is. (I would add, "given that 'theoretically ideal' color correction is not always - maybe ever - the result we want from an artistic standpoint".)

So which is it Drew: being very close to neutrality is:

a. Really vital for good color correction work
b. Desirable but not vital
c. Nice but not important

I'm always a little put off by an article when the first sentence doesn't seem to mean anything. In this case, we are first treated to:

"Once you select a white balance device that passes about 95% manufacturer tested neutrality . . ."

That - passes - about - 95% - manufacturer - tested - neutrality.

Drew, you are heavily involved in the matter of the neutrality of white balance reference tools. Can you tell me what that means?

Does she perhaps mean that a criterion of nearness to neutrality could be described as "95% neutral"? Is that like saying that a bottle of touch-up paint is "95% the same color" as the original finish on my car?

But I'll put Sara into nomination for the best catch phrase of the season from anybody not currently the Governor of Alaska:

"Scientifically tested neutral is often not the neutral anyone wants!"

And I nominate for runner up:

". . . and 18% grey floats a bit in practice".

Best regards,

Doug
 

Doug Kerr

Well-known member
Hi, Drew,

Here's some early feedback on the ColorRight MAX.

"No fiddling whatsoever; no trip to PS to worry about overall skin balance."

So that seems to mean that he is not doing color correction in post-processing.

"... In each case, once I had adjusted for density, the ColorRight dialled in the skin tone, or so close to it that it's a lot less work to get right."

Now, how is it that ColorRight "dials in skin tone" when he is not correcting in post processing?

Best regards,

Doug
 
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