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The Best of the Best in Street Photography

Bill Miller

New member
Quite possibly Philip-Lorca diCorcia’s street photographs are the best example. His large prints garner $20-25,000 each and are in galleries world wide. This one caused a lawsuit which he won.
p-l_dicorcia_head.jpg
This is another example
di_Corcia.jpg


Its all in the planning. These were shot in Times Square from 20' away. He set his lights, camera on a tripod and 500mm lens and just waited. When the subject hit the spot he took his photo and the subject never knew it had happened. They appear to be taken in studio not on a busy sidewalk.

http://www.noorderlicht.com/eng/fest99/wonder/corcia/
 

Clayton Lofgren

New member
I am not sure that these should be judged as street photography. I would consider them candid portraits. I have thought of doing something like this,(without lights) but am not really comfortable with it.
 
This one caused a lawsuit which he won.

Hi Bill, thanks for sharing.

However, winning a lawsuit doesn't mean one has a right invading other people's privacy. It only means that the other party didn't manage to secure the rights of their clients. It's just business, not justice, per se.

Although, in this particular instance, even I'd agree that there is a sense of aesthetics involved.

Its all in the planning. These were shot in Times Square from 20' away. He set his lights, camera on a tripod and 500mm lens and just waited. When the subject hit the spot he took his photo and the subject never knew it had happened. They appear to be taken in studio not on a busy sidewalk.

As one can assume, Philip probably dumped more images than he kept. Which is the real process of lifting the mundane to a higher level. Sure planning is required, the shots have to be taken in the first place, but since there is a large factor of luck/happenstance involved, I'd personally be a bit more modest about the results. But apparently such is so-called art (do note that I didn't capitalize it as Art).

Bart
 

Bill Miller

New member
I am not sure that these should be judged as street photography. I would consider them candid portraits. I have thought of doing something like this,(without lights) but am not really comfortable with it.

However you look at it, this is street photography, try it

Bill,

Why should we applaud someone who abuses human courtesy?

Where is the abuse? If you took a photo of a person on the street, made a print and were able to sell it for xxx number of dollars, name the price is that abuse. I don't think so.

Hi Bill, thanks for sharing.

However, winning a lawsuit doesn't mean one has a right invading other people's privacy. It only means that the other party didn't manage to secure the rights of their clients. It's just business, not justice, per se.

Although, in this particular instance, even I'd agree that there is a sense of aesthetics involved.



As one can assume, Philip probably dumped more images than he kept. Which is the real process of lifting the mundane to a higher level. Sure planning is required, the shots have to be taken in the first place, but since there is a large factor of luck/happenstance involved, I'd personally be a bit more modest about the results. But apparently such is so-called art (do note that I didn't capitalize it as Art).

Bart

If you look up the history of the lawsuit you will see that the courts determined it was Art and not an infringement of Erno Nussenzweig's rights. New York like California has a law that prohibits using a persons likeness for commercial purposes. The court determined that this was Art and not commercial use.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nussenzweig_v._DiCorcia

As to dumping images, there may not have been that many. I set up a stationary camera, pre-focused on a given point for equestrian events. When the horse and rider hit a certain point the camera is tripped. Similar to what diCorcia did for the series.

=========================================================
What is amazing is is everyone's apparent disapproval of these. I don't believe for an instant if any the photographers whose photos I've seen posted on this board were offered $1,000 for a print they would turn it down. Let alone $20,000 USD. No matter if you like diCorcia's photos or not he has taken candid prints to a new level.
 

Rod Witten

pro member
Bill,

You must work in the advertising business. If someone took a candid portrait of Philip-Lorca diCorcia and photo-etched it on public urinals would diCorcia approve? I'm sure he would want royalties for the stunt. His subjects deserve compensation regardless of the unjust judicial decision. The almighty buck should not rule over human privacy and choice. A camera doesn't give the photographer "god" rights.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Hunting and street photography!

Bill,

You must work in the advertising business. If someone took a candid portrait of Philip-Lorca diCorcia and photo-etched it on public urinals would diCorcia approve? I'm sure he would want royalties for the stunt. His subjects deserve compensation regardless of the unjust judicial decision. The almighty buck should not rule over human privacy and choice. A camera doesn't give the photographer "god" rights.
Hi Rod,

I've the same discomfort as you and Bart have, but I admit I take such liberties all the time. Street photography is a hunting sport. We mostly use a surreptitious approach. We do this because we have the opportunity and capability and it gives us a thrill in taking samples of everything at our whim.

Setting a trap, waiting in ambush, following prey is normal for animals such as man who are natural hunters. We are merely apes who have risen above a lot of physical limitations and have a lot of time on our hands. We still enjoy the hunt and grabbing a likeness of things is a developed passion we can acquire. However we want to wrap it with artistic or cultural value, fundamentally it has the characteristics of hunting, except it's only in "mime" so to speak, and there are no deaths. The trophy is merely a likeness of the object discovered.

So is it always O.K.?

We agree that having an animal origin is no excuse for cruel behavior. We have to rise above that!

So we are conflicted:

  • having fun and exploiting vulnerability versus
  • being considerate for people to not be brought to shame.

In away, street photography is no less a "sport" than boxing, baseball and soccer! Lack of physical contact deludes us to think otherwise, but it's still, in a way a sport of sorts.

Where the "sport" becomes unacceptable for the society has to be looked at again and again. We want people to have freedom to observe and record. However we don't want people damaged and actually harassed like the paparazzi did to Princess Diana and her boyfriend.

Photograph of a person on a urinal? To place a photo in a damaging context, like within or adjacent to an article on pornography, for example, likely could be interpreted as "libel per quod". That is when the line is crossed and the context of showing the photograph denigrates the person.

Asher
 

Daniel Buck

New member
while I'm not really a fan of street photography, I don't think it's all together wrong to take peoples photographs on the street, even if they don't see you there shooting.

I do, however, think that if the photographer is going to sell the photos, the person in the photo should be compensated. A model gets paid to have their photographs taken (usually anyway, unless they agree to have the photos taken for free), yet you could go 'stalk' down a pretty lady on the street, grab a nice shot of her and sell it, and she gets nothing? And she does not have the chance (or the right?) to decline the offer for the quick 'free photo session'. I don't think this is right, it starts to set my mind comparing it to paparazzi 'photography'.

Cars, houses, trees, whatever else... in my mind those are different. But photographs of people, I think should be compensated for.

That's my opinion anyway :)
 

Rod Witten

pro member
Standard of Courtesy

while I'm not really a fan of street photography, I don't think it's all together wrong to take peoples photographs on the street, even if they don't see you there shooting.

I do, however, think that if the photographer is going to sell the photos, the person in the photo should be compensated. A model gets paid to have their photographs taken (usually anyway, unless they agree to have the photos taken for free), yet you could go 'stalk' down a pretty lady on the street, grab a nice shot of her and sell it, and she gets nothing? And she does not have the chance (or the right?) to decline the offer for the quick 'free photo session'. I don't think this is right, it starts to set my mind comparing it to paparazzi 'photography'.

Cars, houses, trees, whatever else... in my mind those are different. But photographs of people, I think should be compensated for.

That's my opinion anyway :)

Daniel,

I agree with you totally. Nothing wrong with the "hunt and capture" as long as the human prey agrees to the selling of the image and is offered compensation. This should be an ethical standard for all photographers.
 

Rod Witten

pro member
libel per quod

Hi Rod,

I've the same discomfort as you and Bart have, but I admit I take such liberties all the time. Street photography is a hunting sport. We mostly use a surreptitious approach. We do this because we have the opportunity and capability and it gives us a thrill in taking samples of everything at our whim.

Setting a trap, waiting in ambush, following prey is normal for animals such as man who are natural hunters. We are merely apes who have risen above a lot of physical limitations and have a lot of time on our hands. We still enjoy the hunt and grabbing a likeness of things is a developed passion we can acquire. However we want to wrap it with artistic or cultural value, fundamentally it has the characteristics of hunting, except it's only in "mime" so to speak, and there are no deaths. The trophy is merely a likeness of the object discovered.

So is it always O.K.?

We agree that having an animal origin is no excuse for cruel behavior. We have to rise above that!

So we are conflicted:

  • having fun and exploiting vulnerability versus
  • being considerate for people to not be brought to shame.

In away, street photography is no less a "sport" than boxing, baseball and soccer! Lack of physical contact deludes us to think otherwise, but it's still, in a way a sport of sorts.

Where the "sport" becomes unacceptable for the society has to be looked at again and again. We want people to have freedom to observe and record. However we don't want people damaged and actually harassed like the paparazzi did to Princess Diana and her boyfriend.

Photograph of a person on a urinal? To place a photo in a damaging context, like within or adjacent to an article on pornography, for example, likely could be interpreted as "libel per quod". That is when the line is crossed and the context of showing the photograph denigrates the person.

Asher

Asher,

To win a "libel per quod" suit I believe that you must show "harm to reputation". A history of courtesy indiscretions certainly doesn't suggest a reputable individual. While the "courts of law" may find with the urinal plaintif, the law of nature would throw out the suit citing "an eye for an eye" :=)
As for the "hunt". its only fair that the prey be armed to defend itself.
Street photography is fine as long as you let the "prey" participate in the prize.
 
So if I am at the Superbowl and I turn around in my seat and using my wide angle lens get a shot of 800 or so people behind me, all close enough to make out their faces clearly, I have to get all of their permission before I can sell the shot to Sports Illustrated?
 

Rod Witten

pro member
Other than the restrictions that the NFL and Sports Illustrated may require, you could always hire 800 models instead. Why do photographers in general think that the use of other humans as models should be a free enterprise?
 

Bill Miller

New member
So if I am at the Superbowl and I turn around in my seat and using my wide angle lens get a shot of 800 or so people behind me, all close enough to make out their faces clearly, I have to get all of their permission before I can sell the shot to Sports Illustrated?

If you sell it to SI as an editorial photo NO you do not need to compensate them. However if you sell the photo and it is used for commercial purposes then you would need a model release and compensation as negotiated on with each of the 800. The difference is what is determined to be art -vs- just a photo.

Other than the restrictions that the NFL and Sports Illustrated may require, you could always hire 800 models instead. Why do photographers in general think that the use of other humans as models should be a free enterprise?


Rod,

The same question can be asked of landscape photographers. Why do you feel a persons property "should be a free enterprise". You speak so loudly for "humans" rights, the same is true for property rights. Here is an example, you see this great old barn sitting in a field. The sun beams are hitting it just right thru the clouds. You capture the scene, do you compensate the owner when you sell the print in a gallery?
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Libel per quod, news reporting, selling copies forcommercial or art use.

So if I am at the Superbowl and I turn around in my seat and using my wide angle lens get a shot of 800 or so people behind me, all close enough to make out their faces clearly, I have to get all of their permission before I can sell the shot to Sports Illustrated?
James,

As far as I know*, if the newspaper uses that for news, then no consent is needed and that's part of freedom of the press. They have no expectation of privacy in a public place. More, it would be against the public interest of "right to know" if consent was required as it would impede collection of news. If however you trapped a person in the restroom and photographed him or her there, in a place where privacy is expected, that's likely what an editor would reject as unfit to publish.

If, however it were an anti gay senator soliciting for sex, then it would become fair news again!

If you sell a discrete number of copies of as "Art" then you may be O.K. I think the number is less than 10 or 12 then it can be considered Art. If it's an unlimited edition, for example sold on the web, then it might be viewed as simply an exploitative commercial venture, not art and then you need consent. Similarly if it's sold for stock or other such non-editorial use or non-Art use, consent is mandatory.

And yes, it's more civilized, considerate and more balanced to be able to compensate subjects, but it's not always doable.

Asher

*Caveat emptor:
These are merely my carefully thought out impressions of the current law in the U.S.A. from my readings and study. It does give, I believe a fair overview, but not a precise reference. So, while I believe the impressions are accurate, there are likely details missing or stated inaccurately. Be warned they do not constitute a body of legal opinion that can be relied on in place of professional legal advice. Also they may not apply to countries outside of the U.S.A.
 

Bill Miller

New member

Nicolas, only if its for commercial use. Editorial does not require a release.

"If the image is used in an advertisment or promotion it will need a release, but you can sell an image for “Editorial use” even if it doesn’t have a release.

Commercial use
is when an image is used to advertise, promote, sell or endorse a product, service, organisation or brand. Examples include billboards and print advertising.
Editorial use
is when an image is used in conjunction with, and to illustrate, a story or descriptive piece of text. Examples include magazine or newspaper features and books.
"
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photography-rel-guide.asp
 

Daniel Buck

New member
So if I am at the Superbowl and I turn around in my seat and using my wide angle lens get a shot of 800 or so people behind me, all close enough to make out their faces clearly, I have to get all of their permission before I can sell the shot to Sports Illustrated?

that's a silly comparison, if you ask me. If you are at a sports event, you are there at an organized event, and there are photographers there.

If you are walking down the street to the parking garage to go home, that's not an organized event.

If you buy a ticket to an event, or go to an event, I would almost bet that somewhere in the 'agreement' of buying a ticket or attending an event (which may not actually be written on the ticket itself, or posted publicly), there is something about photographs in there, as well as a host of other things and liabilities/non-liabilities, that if people were concerned about, they could ask and find out.

I know when I shot at drag racing a few times, I had to sign a few things, one of them stated that I *could* photograph the people (both participants, and spectators), and that no releases were required. (I asked about this, because I didn't know) Now I don't know how the people in the stands or the guys doing the racing are notified of this, but if they are concerned about it I'm sure they could ask. And if I was photographing a car or a driver, and someone there said they did not want their photo taken, I would oblige and try not to take any photos with them in the photo.


The same question can be asked of landscape photographers. Why do you feel a persons property "should be a free enterprise". You speak so loudly for "humans" rights, the same is true for property rights. Here is an example, you see this great old barn sitting in a field. The sun beams are hitting it just right thru the clouds. You capture the scene, do you compensate the owner when you sell the print in a gallery?
If it's on private property, then yes I think so. I will try to ask the owners if I can photograph their barn. I've done it many times, and 9 times out of 10 they say something along the lines of "Sure go ahead! Do whatever you like, just don't destroy it!" I've never sold any of my work, but if I did sell a photo of a barn on someone's private property, I would at least offer them a print.

I think the attitude of "if it's there, I can photograph it without question" and being all pushy about it, is what gives photographers a bad name alot of the times. Maybe I'm just a nice guy, but I like to ask first before I photograph on private property. I usually photograph on public lands or national reserve areas, parks an hiking trails or overlooks and so on, but if I go into someones back yard and shoot their house, I'm on their property shooting their property. If I decide to sell the print, I would at least offer them a print, yes.

If there is something out in the wild that is obviously left abandoned, I will most likely not attempt to find out who the owner is. If it's got a 'private property' sign, or some other sign, I will try to find out who owns it, and ask them. To me, it's common courtesy. :)

I don't think it's always cut and dry, black and white, but if an obvious attempt has been made to render the area private, I will ask first.
 

Rod Witten

pro member
National Geographic's Location Release

If you sell it to SI as an editorial photo NO you do not need to compensate them. However if you sell the photo and it is used for commercial purposes then you would need a model release and compensation as negotiated on with each of the 800. The difference is what is determined to be art -vs- just a photo.




Rod,

The same question can be asked of landscape photographers. Why do you feel a persons property "should be a free enterprise". You speak so loudly for "humans" rights, the same is true for property rights. Here is an example, you see this great old barn sitting in a field. The sun beams are hitting it just right thru the clouds. You capture the scene, do you compensate the owner when you sell the print in a gallery?

Bill,

I extend the same courtesy to property owners as I do to individuals and recently began using the National Geographic's "Location Release" form as a guide for determing the course of action re private property. This document along with their "Personal Release" form and the NPPA's code of ethics (which you brought to my attention in an earlier thread) IMO are excellent reference documents for beginners and pros.
 
Note to self...do not take camera to Superbowl.
Along these same lines however, what about shooting in places such as museums and galleries. I don't mean taking shots specifically of someone else's works of art, but maybe taking pictures of people looking at these works of art. Is that ok as far as the people are concerned and also as far as the creator of the art that may also be in the photo? Or is it just considered in bad taste, wrong, or unethical to photograph works of art in a setting such as that without giving credit or obtaining some sort of release? Some places do not allow photography. I know this. Yesterday however, in some of the galleries I visited, it was ok. Does it all boil down to what you intend to do with the images? In my case they are strictly for my own pleasure and perhaps occasionally posting on a forum. What's the rule?
James
 

Bill Miller

New member
Note to self...do not take camera to Superbowl.
Along these same lines however, what about shooting in places such as museums and galleries. I don't mean taking shots specifically of someone else's works of art, but maybe taking pictures of people looking at these works of art. Is that ok as far as the people are concerned and also as far as the creator of the art that may also be in the photo? Or is it just considered in bad taste, wrong, or unethical to photograph works of art in a setting such as that without giving credit or obtaining some sort of release? Some places do not allow photography. I know this. Yesterday however, in some of the galleries I visited, it was ok. Does it all boil down to what you intend to do with the images? In my case they are strictly for my own pleasure and perhaps occasionally posting on a forum. What's the rule?
James

Basically when it comes to usage personal is not a problem. Where issues arise is when photos are used for commercial use. Editorial use is not a problem.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Note to self...do not take camera to Superbowl.
Along these same lines however, what about shooting in places such as museums and galleries. I don't mean taking shots specifically of someone else's works of art, but maybe taking pictures of people looking at these works of art. Is that ok as far as the people are concerned and also as far as the creator of the art that may also be in the photo? Or is it just considered in bad taste, wrong, or unethical to photograph works of art in a setting such as that without giving credit or obtaining some sort of release? Some places do not allow photography. I know this. Yesterday however, in some of the galleries I visited, it was ok. Does it all boil down to what you intend to do with the images? In my case they are strictly for my own pleasure and perhaps occasionally posting on a forum. What's the rule?
James
What's the rule? you ask, James?

For me it's

"Be nice to the other folk in the tour bus"

It's a gestalt thing. So if you are caught and someone is upset but decent, I delete the picture. If they're hostile, i just take more. If they see me I try to get permission by eye contact. If they ever signal "No!" in any way, I'll not take the picture.....unless of course it's news or a once in a lifetime scene but one that mustn't denigrate the person in the process. The latter instance is rare.

I won't block anyone. I will wait in a doorway or sip a drink in a café and have my place marked out, waiting for people to come to my pre planned spot.

Now other times, I actually shoot from the waist or side while I'm walking. Mostly blurred pics and so consent is not needed.

At the time of image review I delete any images that would hurt of humiliate a normal regular person. subject.

So these are my rules, more or less.

In summary, "Be nice to the other folk on the tour bus"


  • Don't do what you can't live with knowing you actually did that to another person
  • Don't block or chase people or make them feel under threat.
  • Be non-perturbing to what you observe
  • Don't get caught!
  • Refrain from asking permission when that's intrusive to the picture or the person
  • Delete awkward or debasing views
  • For children and a recognizable shot, get permission before or afterwards and if refused, delete
  • Use one lens, the smallest camera and carry consent and business cards.

Good luck!

Asher
 
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