I hope anyone who is attracted by the title of this post will join in and post a response. I'm writing it so that I can exchange some more ideas with Sean on the subject.
It's relevant to OPF, because all of us are trying to write posts that will offer our ideas most effectively to our readers. As Dierk told us in another thread, a forum is a marketplace of ideas. So we want to present our wares as alluringly as possible, I think.
Sentence structure--at least as an ideal--should be as transparent as one can make it. If grammar or spelling errors distract, then right away something is lost from the conversation. So I guess I could just as well have titled this "Creating transparent language."
None of us writes perfectly, and many here are writing "on-the-fly" as they fit OPF into their busy lives. So typos or tangled sentences are going to arrive here from just about every poster, and if they make the thought unclear, I think we know how to ask for clarification.
And the best writing really is in what would be our speaking style, one-on-one or in a small group. So I think whoever is moved to write here should just type away, correct whatever he/she has time for, and count on the goodwill of the reader to see past typos or mistakes of language mechanics.
Woe. What a long preface to get to Sean's interesting ideas.
Here's the part of his sentence under discussion. The construction of it brought a demur from someone who thought Sean had lapsed in the area of agreement of subject and verb.
From Sean DeMerchant:
Now, here the antecedent "feels like" the subject noun "rules."
But there's the intervening part of the subject, the noun "structure."
Sean explains that the entire phrase "the rules of grammar and the structure of a language" is intended by him as a singular noun-phrase, which would properly take the verb "has."
When I read the post the first time, my gut feeling, as an educated native speaker who's been fortunate to have grown up in a home where formal standard grammar was in natural use, kicked in. I wanted the verb to agree with the plural noun "rules" and thought, typo, should be "have."
But insignificant typo, since the entire thrust of the paragraph was true and compelling to me. I'm quoting in full, below, Sean's posts from which I'm excerpting, so others can see without going back to the "Smilies" thread in another forum.
However, another reader posted his take that the verb should be the plural "have."
And Sean responded with a serious explication of the meaning he was conveying in his sentence. I'm quoting in full.
Sean DeMerchant said:
I'm not sure. I've never seen this particular kind of construction claimed as a singular entity before. And since it catches me up, and caught at least one other person up, with Sean's implied permission, I'd like to suggest that at least a little revision would help.
Something like, "This is not to say that the structure of a language, together with its rules of grammar, has no value ..."
But I bring this idea up only because I get intense enjoyment from discussing the philosophy of grammar and of language structure.
For me, Sean's post is fine just as it stands, and I buy completely into his take on how to learn to write well.
I think we learn to write by reading, and the better the writing in what we read, the better our own composition will be.
Now here's Sean's original take on it.
Sean DeMerchant's reply in the original thread:
For those who want to look at the thread,
1) The original reply posts are in the forum OPF Look, Feel, and Vibe.
2) The thread is "Smilies invading - ;-) :-0 :-(" originated by Nicolas Claris.
3) Sean's posts are:
a) Sean DeMerchant I like them. ) Yesterday, 02:57 PM
and
b) Sean DeMerchant It depends upon whether one... Today, 01:48 PM .
Sean goes on further in this second post, with some other ideas, that might bear discussing in a separate thread:
So much to discuss, so little time.
Best wishes,
Mary
Edited once, by Mary Bull, to correct a typo in the word "antecedent."
It's relevant to OPF, because all of us are trying to write posts that will offer our ideas most effectively to our readers. As Dierk told us in another thread, a forum is a marketplace of ideas. So we want to present our wares as alluringly as possible, I think.
Sentence structure--at least as an ideal--should be as transparent as one can make it. If grammar or spelling errors distract, then right away something is lost from the conversation. So I guess I could just as well have titled this "Creating transparent language."
None of us writes perfectly, and many here are writing "on-the-fly" as they fit OPF into their busy lives. So typos or tangled sentences are going to arrive here from just about every poster, and if they make the thought unclear, I think we know how to ask for clarification.
And the best writing really is in what would be our speaking style, one-on-one or in a small group. So I think whoever is moved to write here should just type away, correct whatever he/she has time for, and count on the goodwill of the reader to see past typos or mistakes of language mechanics.
Woe. What a long preface to get to Sean's interesting ideas.
Here's the part of his sentence under discussion. The construction of it brought a demur from someone who thought Sean had lapsed in the area of agreement of subject and verb.
From Sean DeMerchant:
This is not to say the rules of grammar and the structure of a language has no value
Now, here the antecedent "feels like" the subject noun "rules."
But there's the intervening part of the subject, the noun "structure."
Sean explains that the entire phrase "the rules of grammar and the structure of a language" is intended by him as a singular noun-phrase, which would properly take the verb "has."
When I read the post the first time, my gut feeling, as an educated native speaker who's been fortunate to have grown up in a home where formal standard grammar was in natural use, kicked in. I wanted the verb to agree with the plural noun "rules" and thought, typo, should be "have."
But insignificant typo, since the entire thrust of the paragraph was true and compelling to me. I'm quoting in full, below, Sean's posts from which I'm excerpting, so others can see without going back to the "Smilies" thread in another forum.
However, another reader posted his take that the verb should be the plural "have."
And Sean responded with a serious explication of the meaning he was conveying in his sentence. I'm quoting in full.
Sean DeMerchant said:
It depends upon whether one is refering the singular referential developed by the and, or plurality of items brought together by the and. Has is the appropriate term for the singular entity, the rules of grammar and the structure of a language. Hence blindly going with what an english* professor would fail to convey that I was refering to it as a singular entity. This is the same as saying roll of film is singular even though it is a spindle, a case, and some film wound into it.
I'm not sure. I've never seen this particular kind of construction claimed as a singular entity before. And since it catches me up, and caught at least one other person up, with Sean's implied permission, I'd like to suggest that at least a little revision would help.
Something like, "This is not to say that the structure of a language, together with its rules of grammar, has no value ..."
But I bring this idea up only because I get intense enjoyment from discussing the philosophy of grammar and of language structure.
For me, Sean's post is fine just as it stands, and I buy completely into his take on how to learn to write well.
I think we learn to write by reading, and the better the writing in what we read, the better our own composition will be.
Now here's Sean's original take on it.
Sean DeMerchant's reply in the original thread:
As to the rules of grammar, they are about the absolutely worst possible way to learn written communication. Just reading a few hundred well written novels will teach you more about how to write than decades of studying grammar. This is not to say the rules of grammar and the structure of a language has no value as that structure is helpful in learning a new language through the mapping of like and un-alike structures. But the rules of grammar are next to worthless in learning to communicate fluently with the written word.
For those who want to look at the thread,
1) The original reply posts are in the forum OPF Look, Feel, and Vibe.
2) The thread is "Smilies invading - ;-) :-0 :-(" originated by Nicolas Claris.
3) Sean's posts are:
a) Sean DeMerchant I like them. ) Yesterday, 02:57 PM
and
b) Sean DeMerchant It depends upon whether one... Today, 01:48 PM .
Sean goes on further in this second post, with some other ideas, that might bear discussing in a separate thread:
[signature snipped]
*english with a lowercase 'e' is the correct spelling for the language spoken in North America. With a capitol 'e' it becomes a proper noun and becomes the language of England and not that of Australia, North America, and etcetera. What is widely called American English (more properly US English) is part of english. But, english as a language encompassing the many is not a proper noun any more than feline is a proper noun.
So much to discuss, so little time.
Best wishes,
Mary
Edited once, by Mary Bull, to correct a typo in the word "antecedent."