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Digital medium format vs smaller formats

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
It seems that photo forums all over the web discuss whether MF is dead now that full frame SLRs have reached a similarly high resolution. Do we need a similar discussion here? I am not so sure, but I would like to try. What do you think? Do modern MF cameras still have compelling advantages over high end SLRs? Leaving the question of cost or bulk and weight aside for the moment, would you consider one for yourself?
 

Michael Nagel

Well-known member
I think that the discussion boils down to these topics in most of the cases:
DOF for wide angle.
Resolution - if you go to the higher end of MF backs, there still is an edge...
Suitable for what kind of situations? (MF is not exactly the first choice for fast moving objects)
Quality of the RAW files (14/16 bit per color?).
Bulk (for those who are looking for equipment that is easier to haul around).

What is important for you?
What are the things you can live with?
YMMV.

Best regards,
Michael
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
The Pentax 645D Option!

It seems that photo forums all over the web discuss whether MF is dead now that full frame SLRs have reached a similarly high resolution. Do we need a similar discussion here? I am not so sure, but I would like to try. What do you think? Do modern MF cameras still have compelling advantages over high end SLRs? Leaving the question of cost or bulk and weight aside for the moment, would you consider one for yourself?

So far, I'm convinced that the Nikon 40 MP sensor does have an edge in resolution over the Canon 5DIII, but I doubt that it yields superior prints above 20"x30". I am still looking at whatever reviews I can find, so to me, it's Canon v. Pentax 645D for my studio or landscape work or else I'd go for the best of the 80 MP sensors, (if I could find the cash).

My guru in this subject is Nicolas Claris, (one of the forces in the building of OPF when Robgalbaith.com was sold and the started to charge folk to access out posts, LOL). Nicolas, with Marine, his equally talented wife own a business promotion agency, Claris, Image Builder specializing in high end nautical vessels, often into the many millions of dollars. Nicolas does the photography, first at the shipbuilding yard, (from the laying of the keel to it's building, fitting out with engines, electronics, state rooms) and finally rigging and first voyages. The books that are made for the 50 million dollar yachts may cost more than 1-2 of Lamborghinis, with just 12-18 copies in the entire edition, for the owner, architects and a few privileged associates!

In this rare world of luxury and high achievement, only the most inventive nautical architects and engineers are used, the materials are first grade and the leathers and woods the finest obtainable on the planet. So the photography is taken very seriously and measured to the same exacting standards. For most of the time in the past two decades, Nicolas used Canon, from 14-600mm, whether in the boat yard, the staterooms or at sea from a chase boat or helicopter. Routinely the pictures were printed at exhibitions up to 3.5 meters high. His work has garnered many international awards for boating photography with the Canon systems, (generally, 1DS models). However several years ago, he had the opportunity to test the Sinar Hy6 camera with the sinar digital back. That was a major change. I could feel, all the way from Bordeaux to California his excitement at the increased quality, (despite the frustrations in handling a new file system with different responses to RAW processing). Then after being converted to MF expectations of more subtle colors and tonalities, he tried the much more economical and (commercially viable) Pentax 645D system. For about 12 months this has been his main shooting camera and he's sold much of his large collection of Canon bodies and glass.

Since 98% of Nicolas' photography is competitive commercial work, the choice to move to Pentax means that he feels, on a business level, the extra cost and slower pace of a MF system are outweighed by increase in quality. I'm looking at the same set of choices and will start printing some of his Pentax files to see how I feel about the differences from my 5DII and the other competing MF cameras in my price range.

Still please, Pentax, either use DNG files or give your code to Phase One Adobe and Apple so we can have choices in using your wonderful Pentax Camera!

Asher
 
Although resolution may be catching up that is not what I most like about larger formats. It's the literal size of the mediums that I like.

You will never be able to get the same FOV with longer focal length lens with 35mm format or even "medium format" digital.

There is nothing like seeing the compression/magnification of a 360mm lens on 8x10 in a portrait. I mean an equivelant 35mm lens would be a 50mm from the same distance to subject.

I see larger formats coming back as the price to produce physically larger sensors comes down.

What is the largest digital sensor availble today? About 40mm x 53mm where as the area of a 8x10 sheet of film would be 203mm x 254mm in size.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Although resolution may be catching up that is not what I most like about larger formats. It's the literal size of the mediums that I like.

You will never be able to get the same FOV with longer focal length lens with 35mm format or even "medium format" digital.

Jake,

The perspective is the same based on where you stand, the FOV angle corresponds to the ratio of the diagonals of the two formats.


There is nothing like seeing the compression/magnification of a 360mm lens on 8x10 in a portrait. I mean an equivelant 35mm lens would be a 50mm from the same distance to subject.

Precisely! This is where the larger format really works magic, showering importance on your chosen subject if the lens can be opened up.

What is the largest digital sensor availble today? About 40mm x 53mm where as the area of a 8x10 sheet of film would be 203mm x 254mm in size.

With devices like Quad-Stitich from the Kapture group, one can stitch even an entire 4x5 frame portrait or landscape.

Asher
 

Tom dinning

Registrant*
All my early life I used 6x7 and 6x7 in conjunction with 35mm. Now that digital is here to stay for a while I've changed my approach to suit the full frame format with Nikon. I know there are differences but I no longer need those differences. They are not a consideration in the process I use any more. I don't even have a desire to go back to what I did before. Thats just my preference and I think its the approach most of us can take. Choose what you want to suit your needs or desires. Making comparisons is a waste of time because they are apples and pears; same family different genera. I liked working with large format film when there was nothing else. Now I have something else and I'm happy with that.
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
All my early life I used 6x7 and 6x7 in conjunction with 35mm. Now that digital is here to stay for a while I've changed my approach to suit the full frame format with Nikon. I know there are differences but I no longer need those differences. They are not a consideration in the process I use any more. I don't even have a desire to go back to what I did before. Thats just my preference and I think its the approach most of us can take. Choose what you want to suit your needs or desires. Making comparisons is a waste of time because they are apples and pears; same family different genera. I liked working with large format film when there was nothing else. Now I have something else and I'm happy with that.

Tom,

There are also romances one can have with a particular lens character. I'll do a little more LF film to check how the romance has lasted. However it does mean a slow work pace. For me it's film first and then maybe MF digital. I'm still finding out out what each means to me.

If I knew nothing more than my 5DII or any Olympus, Pentax, Nikon DSLR, I'd actually be pretty set for life! They'd be enough excitement for me for the next 25 years. I don't feel that the cameras I have limit my artistic potential. Rather I'm spoiled rotten to even have what I have. The idea that I can change lenses from 24mm to 400mm and I have AF and image stabilization and low light capability, is pretty amazing to me anyway!

Asher
 

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Still please, Pentax, either use DNG files or give your code to Phase One Adobe and Apple so we can have choices in using your wonderful Pentax Camera![/SIZE


Dear OPFers, for the upcoming next days I've no real time, but I'll get back online on this as soon as I can…

Just a quick note to clarify :
Pentax 645D does provide the possibility to shoot in camera (a pref setting) :
- PEF (proprietary raw)
- JPG
- JPG + PEF
- DNG

Later on if you shoot PEF you have 2 possibilities :
- Convert PEFs to DNGs via Adobe converter
- Use PEFs with Silkypix (beeeeeurk !) or Lightroom 4.3 (or the Release candidate 4.4) LR4.3 does recognize the PEFs from the 645D and its lens as well (not the previous versions afaik).
The later is what I use for now as C1 does read the DNGs (wether produced by the camera or DNG converter) but the demosaicing is not optimized at all and lenses aren't recognized…
BTW in camera DNGs show some bad greens and some color deviance…
My workflow, till Pentax talks to Phase is : PEF/LR4 RC then a very few CS

So yes, Pentax please talk to Phase!
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
Of course large film formats are different, but the question was specifically about digital. For digital cameras, the maximum sensor size commercially available is just almost as big as 645 MF film and many cameras are even under that. Cameras like the Hasselblad H4D-31 or 40, Leica S2, PhaseOne P30 or P40 or the noted Pentax 645D have sensors sized 33mm x 44mm (30x45 for the S2), intermediate between the 24mm x 36mm of "full frame" and the 41.5mm x 56mm of 645MF film (40x54 for "full frame" digital MF...).

There are 3 sizes for digital medium format: small (as in the Pentax 645D, etc...), medium (as in 50 mpix backs) and so-called "full frame" (very close to 645 film frame size).

A little table on format size to ease the comparison (width only here):


APS-C: ............... 23.6mm .x0.65 (1/1.52)
35mm: ................ 36mm .. x1
MF digital crop: ..... 44mm .. x1.22
MF 50mpix: ........... 49mm .. x1.4
645 on 120 roll: ..... 54mm .. x1.5
6x7 on 120 roll: ..... 70mm .. x1.94
4x5" film: ........... 127mm . x3.5


So, with the smaller MF sensors as used in the Pentax 645D, etc... we are dealing with an increase in size much smaller than when we were dealing with film formats. There is actually less increase between a full frame 35mm camera and the small MF sensors than between an APS-C SLR and a full-frame 35mm SLR. The comparison of, say, depth of field is also in that order: you will need a full stop less between an EOS 7D and 1D and about 2/3 between a 1D and the 645D.

...which brings me to the next point: in the list above, the format for which one can get the thinnest depth of field is 35mm, not medium format. The reason is that large aperture lenses (f/1.4 or f/1.2) are only available for that format.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
So far, I'm convinced that the Nikon 40 MP sensor does have an edge in resolution over the Canon 5DIII, but I doubt that it yields superior prints above 20"x30". I am still looking at whatever reviews I can find, so to me, it's Canon v. Pentax 645D for my studio or landscape work or else I'd go for the best of the 80 MP sensors, (if I could find the cash).

If you are shooting landscapes by good light, you are putting your cameras in a conditions were all variables have been removed from the equation, but resolution. This is the same for most web reviews as well: the "tests" seek to use the lens at apertures were their aberrations are minimal, use enough light so that noise or dynamic range are out of the equation, use the same processing of raw files (while each brand processing is part of their trade secrets), match the colors between the cameras, etc... By making all variables equal but resolution, they will necessarily find out that the only difference is resolution. But that is a consequence of the test design, not a property of the camera systems.

In actual photographic practice, the photographer will get very different results with a MF camera and with a 35mm SLR for reasons related to the system and not to the sensor pixel sharpness per se (for example, because the lenses are different and used at apertures where the optical aberrations are quite visible).
 

Ben Rubinstein

pro member
It's not just the cameras, once you get into the world of digital large format lenses it's a whole new ballgame. I hope in the coming month to do some side by side testing of our D800e against our Aptus II-8 for repro work in the studio.
 
I can confirm that my Imacon 528c with Zeiss C645 glass has (slightly) better resolution (used in single shot mode) than my D800E ... usable DR is better too... obviously due to the narrower linear part that the MFDB seems to bear, it seems that if someone tries to take advantage of all DR that the FF records, the result is unnatural..., color balance and depth is also better with the MFDB....
Yet..., why I (and many more that I know) use the Nikon more for common single shot shooting? I believe the answer lies on ..."what the hey" reasons, I believe there is a "borderline" on what we find acceptable and when this borderline is reached, then, ..."what the hey" comes into play! People did the same when film advanced, ....they shrunk the image area!
Look at the makers of view cameras, they only make 2X3 cameras and I admit that I only loaded 120 film on my Sinar P2 from 2004 on, before I sold it for a Fuji GX680.... I also believe that the values of MF lay else where than being "sharper than FF"... MF is IMO all about modularity and giving solutions, if the MF makers change policy and design their products with respect to "special - advanced photography" (multishot - true color, View and tech camera compatibility, long exposures, etc) instead of trying to provide "larger image area DSLRs" they will survive... If they continue seeking "hi-end" image quality, I foresee, that FF (36x24) will soon be the larger image area available!
 

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Theodoros,

Is the 528 the "multishot version"? 528 apparently refers to the 528 MB file when in multishot mode. So your camera would then be a rather superior beast!

Asher
 
Theodoros,

Is the 528 the "multishot version"? 528 apparently refers to the 528 MB file when in multishot mode. So your camera would then be a rather superior beast!

Asher
Yes it is Asher, the 528c in 16x microstep mode provides (obviously only when the subject is absolutely still) an image that is far superior than any single shot back, no matter how modern or expensive this back is, but in this case, I clearly refer to its performance as single shot (which is similar to a P1-P25+) with respect to my D800E... For a reason, (it may be because of the MF lenses) the MFDB is (slightly) sharper than the DSLR at equal size prints... not that you would care on the difference (I don't), but I've come to the conclusion that resolution (more pixels) as such, is not enough to replace a larger sensor. As I said before, I now use the D800E for many things that I used to use the Contax+MFDB, not because it has surpassed the MF quality, but because it is good enough. Mind you that I don't share the same opinion for the plain D800... Only for the D800E.
 
What lenses did you use on each camera, if I may ask?

Plenty Jerome, ...plenty! (LOL - thanks for the thoughtful mood you offer). On Contax, I own all (35, 45, 55, 80, 120m, 140, 210 & 45-90 zoom) but the 350... I've also used some very carefully selected CZJs (they are not the most "reliable" in terms of performance - in some cases I've replaced the lens with ...the (better performing) same lens) and the (Hass-v fit) 75-150 Schneider zoom. On Nikon, I own 22 lenses currently.... some of them are AI-s, some others "D"s, some other are "G"s (the few zooms mainly).... to give you an idea, I don't own a slower than f2.8 lens, but the 300mm f4 AF-s and most of them are fast primes. OTOH, I have to mention that I never trust pixel peeping (I've been many times fooled by them) on my tests.... for me a photograph is only the printed thing on paper and thus I only test on equal (or close - I'll explain this later) prints.
Mentioning prints on Epson 9000, if a print comes out to 178dpi, ...I print on 180 (with no up or downsampling), if it comes to 279, I print on 288.... I never upsample or downsample..., so, with the term "equal size prints", ...I mean "similar optimized prints".
 
Mentioning prints on Epson 9000, if a print comes out to 178dpi, ...I print on 180 (with no up or downsampling), if it comes to 279, I print on 288.... I never upsample or downsample..., so, with the term "equal size prints", ...I mean "similar optimized prints".

Hi Theodoros,

I'm not sure if you are familiar with it, but the printer driver (in this case of the Epson, but others do similar things) up-samples to 360 PPI before actually dithering the colors. That up-sampling is not very high quality, so you may get better results if you up-sample yourself using a quality algorithm. It also allows to do print output sharpening at the actual output resolution.

When your file size produces a higher PPI than 360 PPI for a given output size, you can better set the Epson printer driver to "Finest detail" mode, because otherwise the output data will be down-sampled to 360PPI. That effectively throws away resolution and, again, the resampling quality is not very good. That will be especially important when the data was output sharpened. It makes little sense to sharpen before resampling.

Cheers,
Bart
 

Alain Briot

pro member
When it comes to getting the finest image quality, the only problem with medium format digital is the cost. If you can afford it, nothing else compares.

Regarding dithering algorhythms, the finest are generated by ImagePrint from Colorbyte Software. Here too, the only problem with ImagePrint is the cost. If you can aford it, nothing else compares.

If you can afford these, then the search is over. If you cannot afford these then the discussion is on about what is 'almost' as good at a lower cost. Most discussions come from the motivation to find something 'almost' as good at a lower cost.
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
When it comes to getting the finest image quality, the only problem with medium format digital is the cost. If you can afford it, nothing else compares.

Regarding dithering algorhythms, the finest are generated by ImagePrint from Colorbyte Software. Here too, the only problem with ImagePrint is the cost. If you can aford it, nothing else compares.

If you can afford these, then the search is over. If you cannot afford these then the discussion is on about what is 'almost' as good at a lower cost. Most discussions come from the motivation to find something 'almost' as good at a lower cost.

MF is not "better" in the sense that no camera is "better" than another. It is different. What is different, why it is different and what it means for the end pictures is what interests me.
 
The "what the hey" factor

I believe that what is important currently, what should interest most of us, is for MF to survive.... In the past, through all photographic history, the more the image area was advancing in quality (due to tech advancement), the more it was shrinking.... Most of us ended up during the last decade, not to use sheet film on our view cameras, but 120 film instead for convenience reasons... (8x10 or 5x7 was replaced by 4x5 long ago). The choice was never because the better quality of the larger image area was denied... It was always a choice in favor of convenience, faster workflow and cost, which was happening every time we were offered an advancement in quality of some smaller image area that was "good enough but not better" to replace the larger one.... (the "what the hey" factor). With digital things where different... In reality, "large forma" (image areas above 4x5) where never offered... the character of a scanning back is more (IMO) the character of a scanner than one of a "photographic" light sensitive area... So, MF (crippled to 6x4.5 or less) was the largest offered and all sheet film work was replaced by basic size MF image areas... I believe that none of us thought that MF size image area and hence cameras would also be under threat... but the D800E proved things to be different!
-Is it better? ...NO!
-Is it good enough? ...Yes it is! ...It is good enough for many to say "what the hey" and save cost.
IMO, the mistake is all with the MF makers, MF was always about modularity and serving the demanding tasks... the better image quality was only an additional extra, not the reason behind it... In return, the makers started designing "better image quality" larger DSLRs... and closing their systems, they started trading the older backs in part exchange and never return them back to the market to expand the base of the market.... Let me ask you one thing... What does a Leica S different than a D800E? ...other than "better image quality"? ...but if the Leica S had an interchangeable back that would be able to do "true color multishot" and one could use it on his view camera for proper still photography? ...wouldn't it then be a tool instead of "just a camera"? ...Besides, what will the owner of the Leica S do when the quality of the sensor will be overpassed in a few years? Who was replacing his MF camera system in the past ....because of better film?
 
The lenses.

You asked.
The "what the hey" factor still applies.... Besides, no matter how good a single shot image can be out of any lens combined with any sensor, it can never compare with a 16x "microstep" true color still image... My opinion on where the "what the hey" line is drawn by consumers, (besides cost) is clearly based on the knowledge of the absolute (multishot) and the advancement of the latest generation FF (D800E) sensors... I reckon that most photographers feel that their skills and technique are good enough to cover the distance that separates a Leica S to a D800E... after all, they could do without both only a few years ago and still shoot great pictures!
Let's face it Jerome... there will always be hi-end consumers, but this is different to great photography! With a D800E, a skilled photographer will perform the task very well indeed, it's the special things that MFDBs do (view & tech camera compatibility, multishot etc...) that DSLRs (or leica or Pentax) won't do and
as long as the makers don't understand that they will be under threat from the smaller image area....
 

Jerome Marot

Well-known member
no matter how good a single shot image can be out of any lens combined with any sensor, it can never compare with a 16x "microstep" true color still image...

Which itself will pale in face of a gigapan robotic head. So?

Let's face it Jerome... there will always be hi-end consumers, but this is different to great photography!

Indeed some people make great images with a pinhole and a cardboard box. But that is not the question. The question is about what is different, why it is different and what it means for the end pictures.

it's the special things that MFDBs do (view & tech camera compatibility, multishot etc...) that DSLRs (or leica or Pentax) won't do and as long as the makers don't understand that they will be under threat from the smaller image area....

That is an aspect I had not thought about: the market for a MF back as opposed to a MF camera. Thanks for bringing it forward.
 

Alain Briot

pro member
I see no risk that MFD disappears. It fits a need for high end photography that will always exist. For commercial photographers MFD is a way to separate yourself from the competition when the subject you photograph allows for the use of larger cameras. Look at high end fashion, product, cars, landscapes, portraits, and other types of high end photography and you'll see they are all shot on MFD. For wealthy amateurs it provides equipment that makes a statement. In fact, because right now the competition for MFD is so reduced - just 2 or 3 manufacturers- the manufacturers that cater to this market are making huge profits.

These photographers cater to the luxury business. Their choice of equipment is not dictated by cost but by the desire to use the finest equipment in the world because that is what is required to succeed in their field. In the past it was 4x5 and 8x10 view cameras. Today it is MFD. Tomorrow who knows but it will be something that's expensive and offers superlative quality.

MFD is to photography what luxury cars are to automobiles. It's a small section that caters to a specific market. As such it follows the marketing approach that applies to all luxury products.
 
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