The poor with the strategy of the rich…

[nicolas claris]

If you're a long time member of OPF or If you already have read most of threads here, you may know that I'm a colour fan, and have strong opinions against B&W (for MY work and vision).

A few days ago I have been contacted by people for which I did a succesfull exhibition (displayed in Paris and Shanghaï).
They wanted me to prepare a new ehxhibition to be displayed in Cannes (in the Côte d'Azur).
But in Black and White.

I replied with a lot of thanks but declined the offer, stating that "I do colour photography only, full of life" etc.

They surely have found someone else for their exhibition, and frankly, I have no regret.
Of course I'd liked to have an exhibition in such a well known place as Cannes (where I grew-up!), but not for the price of doing against my beliefs.

The purpose of this thread is not about B&W versus color, but I wonder, how, you, other pros would have done facing such situation?
Do you give what your client our your public ask for or do you bring your intent?

I guess this is a matter of soul and self respect. What are you reday to do (or not) to be sooooooooo succesfull?....

Do you target the short/soon market or the long term?

 

[Asher Kelman]

If you're a long time member of OPF or If you already have read most of threads here, you may know that I'm a colour fan, and have strong opinions against B&W (for MY work and vision).

A few days ago I have been contacted by people for which I did a succesfull exhibition (displayed in Paris and Shanghaï).
They wanted me to prepare a new ehxhibition to be displayed in Cannes (in the Côte d'Azur).
But in Black and White.

I replied with a lot of thanks but declined the offer, stating that "I do colour photography only, full of life" etc.

They surely have found someone else for their exhibition, and frankly, I have no regret.
Of course I'd liked to have an exhibition in such a well known place as Cannes (where I grew-up!), but not for the price of doing against my beliefs.

The purpose of this thread is not about B&W versus color, but I wonder, how, you, other pros would have done facing such situation?
Do you give what your client our your public ask for or do you bring your intent?

I guess this is a matter of soul and self respect. What are you reday to do (or not) to be sooooooooo succesfull?....

Do you target the short/soon market or the long term?

I'm sorry, Nicolas, that you were not able to venture into this different salon. I have visited many cultures and try to appreciate the nuances of different expression. I would wish you could find it in your will an allowance to make a visit to this different world where everything is exressed in tones only.

Part of the human condition is to look not only at what things are but also what possibilities can exist. You could, for example, photograph in IR or shoot several rolls of B&W film each week, just as an exploration. I have no doubt that this will inform you own fine color work, which you know I admire.

Now, for my own life, while on the last year of my PH.D. research, I was offered a massive sum from the husband of a British woman with cancer to grow her cancer cells to test against available drugs. I refused it because I felt it would have been taking money from a child since I believed I was not likely at all to give him results of any value to his wife. My university asked me to accept the money, but I refused. Here, however, I turned away an amazing career opportunity because I felt it was unethical. However, deep inside me, I also had a question of my selfish motives to complete my own Ph.D. work.

For you, there is no loss in taking on the B&W project. You have all the skill to bring to a project in B&W that is needed and the capability to harness the collegial advice and input from brilliant French photographers.

I think, in additon to being great in photography, you are rather stubborn. Maybe it's your history as a sea captain. You have a route mapped out and refuse to go off course.

Maybe that's what I did too and I trick my self in saying I was ethical just like you do right now!

Asher

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Not at all....

Part of our human condition is that we have a vision for ourselves - our lives, our work, our beliefs.

In my accounting realm, I am often asked to do work that would pay me well, but it is not work I am happy doing and I have declined it. Not because I am not capable - I clearly have the skills, but at the end of the day it will rob me of energy - it is all consuming - and while it may further my career in Accounting, just doesn't coincide with what my vision is for right now.

Same for photography - if your vision does not include B&W at this stage in your game, there is no reason to do that. It is the image of you as a photographer and your finished product - good, bad or mediorce, that you cannot do at this time. Be true to what is in your heart. If you are approached again at another time, you might want to look and see if that is the message you are missing,you might want to play with it for yourself to see if later on it IS something you are happy to produce. I believe in following your heart much of the time.

 

[nicolas claris]

I believe in following your heart much of the time

Exactly my feeling Kathy. Without an ounce of regret.
Just curious about others...

 

[nicolas claris]

Asher, my dear ami américain,
you don't have to be sorry, I just can't. I see in color (Kathy explained that very well).
I know I could achieve that kind of work, pretty much easily, but I just don't feel it's right to do it as it does not stick with my beliefs.

It happened another time (last year) that a client asked me for a B&W shot. I came back with a full color job and explained the why and they did accept the work with kudos!

For this time, just a bit less of Bordeaux wine! Tant pis! my peace of mind desserves it!

 

[Asher Kelman]

Yes, my good friend, you think in color. That is good and that is bad too. The brain sees in tonalities to give everything form. It is the shading and allocation of color to tonality that makes B&W so exressive. It is easy to make the mind happy with beautiful colors.

Color photography is of course a challenge and your work meets it head on and with distinction.

However, color photography is often less than B&W as it is far easier to impress. Color pictures are a melange of wonderful skill, vision and insight but also may have the tomatoe ketchup of razmatazz pepsi instant satisfaction, the fast vulgar seduction of color, like deeply exposed sweating breasts of unkempt women who do not eat or excercise but still want to get a man!

If you would just play. 1-2 rolls of B&W film per week, your color work might be better informed.

So don't be stubborn. This is not ethics. This is openness to possibilities.

Asher

 

[nicolas claris]

Asher
I could answer you, but I won't, you're off topic!
My wish and original question in here is what is others behavior in such case. B&W/color is completely anecdotal here.
You have already and interestingly answer in your 1st post, thanks for that;-)

 

[Asher Kelman]

Asher
I could answer you, but I won't, you're off topic!

Nicolas,

You did exclude B&W v color in your first post. I didn't notice that before!

I will say that some of the greatest advances have come from men and women who did venture from their own track.

Photographers are known for a particular style, that is why the best are hired. Exhibitions are done with some unifying theme. So one cannot simply chop around. So there, I understand reluctance.

I too would be interested to know of people who have turned their backs on such a prestigious opportunity.

Asher

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Definitely, follow your heart...

Exactly my feeling Kathy. Without an ounce of regret.
Just curious about others...

I too think alike. Just follow your heart. I have learnt that the process of making a decision works like this. In an instant, we make a decision based on what our heart tells us. After that, we try to rationalize why we have made that particular decision.

Life's too short and you could be dead next morning. Just do whatever you like to do .

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

I too think alike. Just follow your heart. I have learnt that the process of making a decision works like this. In an instant, we make a decision based on what our heart tells us. After that, we try to rationalize why we have made that particular decision.

Life's too short and you could be dead next morning. Just do whatever you like to do .

Cheers,

Not necesarily good or wise, Cem,

They go to war based on decisions like that! They rationalize it afterwoods!

The heart works on erruptive impulse!

Asher

 

[Scott B. Hughes]

Bravo on your decision, Nicolas!

I have had prospective clients tell me, " I love your work and style, but I want you to do it like these enclosed tear sheets."

Uh, thanks but no thank you.

 

[KrisCarnmarker]

You did the right thing, Nicolas. I don't say that because we have similar view on B&W photography but because you were true to your believes.

I'm not a pro photographer, but I did have a similar choice to make in my early twenties. I was asked by a chart topping "pop/funk" singer to play guitar in his band, or at least to come in and audition. Well, I never wanted to be a pro musician, plus I did not like his music very much (at the time it was pure blues for me). I said "thanks, but no thanks" and although I sometimes wonder where that path would have taken me, I have no regrets.

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

@ Nicolas, I intend to think that exclusion is limitation. Then again, one needs to be comfortable in any chosen field to be able to create his very best.

@Asher, wow, what an interesting story! Well, I can say I meet a PH.D with a bundle of ethics just the other way around many years ago. A very disturbing experience in deed. An ambassador of the US and PH.D. approached me during my time in the USA. He claimed to be able to get me a VISA that would allow me to stay unlimitted time. For reasons of love at this time I was very interested in such an allowance.

To make a long story short, it ended up that he asked me to make contacts to german hospitals for him, because of my background and contacts in R&D, and he claimed he would have found a cure for AIDS, which in deed was nothing but a food supplement. Now, he asked me to make such contacts conditional to his offer to help with my VISA. His goal was to sell large quantities of this supplement, nothing else!

Now, I am not an idiot, and not knowing whether he really could have come up with something, I arranged a phone conference with one of the more well known capacities in germany. First I spoke with Dr.X in germany and explained the situation. He confirmed what I thought, that this person is deeply unethical to say the least, but out of curiousity we made the conference call, which ended up in a disaster, where the "distinguished ambassador" was insulting and agressive towards the german Dr. who also was the head of one of the biggest hospitals in germany at this time.

After this call the ambassador wanted me to contact more people for him who would be more competent, well, I explained Dr. X's credentials and told him to go to Hell!

 

[Nill Toulme]

...The purpose of this thread is not about B&W versus color, but I wonder, how, you, other pros would have done facing such situation?
Do you give what your client our your public ask for or do you bring your intent?

I guess this is a matter of soul and self respect. What are you reday to do (or not) to be sooooooooo succesfull?....

Are you kidding? I was a lawyer for thirty years... ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

 

[nicolas claris]

Are you kidding? I was a lawyer for thirty years... ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

and then? you're teasing us...

 

[Nill Toulme]

...you're teasing us...

Not entirely. As a lawyer one's obligation is to represent the client within the bounds of ethics. That's not to say the client comes first, ethics second, but that ethics define the outer bounds of what is to be done in the course of "zealous representation" of the client.

OTOH, yes, there were any number of times when I was happy to say "No, sorry, I don't take that kind of case," so I guess on reflection I do see your point. It's just that I don't see it as one of "ethics," but more as one of of "chacun à son goût" in the work one chooses to do — if one has the luxury of choice. ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

 

[Jack_Flesher]

Well, a different point of view...

As an "artist", you followed your heart and held firm on your convictions, and all that is well and good; well and good because you obviously are not relying on your art sales to eat...

Back when artists had patrons, I wonder how many of them painted or drew what they were asked to instead of what they wished? It is commonly accepted fact that DaVinci painted the "Last Supper" fresco under duress; not at all what he wanted to do, but he did it to satisfy a contract, all political issues present at that time aside.

As a working "Pro", I feel you should be able to see in B&W as well as color, shoot film or digital as the situation calls for and alter either of those mediums any way necessary to meet the needs of your client. Moreover, you had a client that liked your work and was willing to pay you for it; in my opinion you possibly made a mistake: You wasted a shot at a good gig, wasted a chance to be seen by new viewers, vendors, collectors and curators at a landmark event. In Cannes. AND you possibly lost a client...

But hey, this is just one perspective. And at least by holding firm on your convictions you gave another artist (or working pro) a great opportunity to be discovered -- you should feel good about that!

Cheers,

 

[nicolas claris]

Not entirely. It's just that I don't see it as one of "ethics," but more as one of of "chacun à son goût" in the work one chooses to do — if one has the luxury of choice. ;-)

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

You come exaclty to my oint. Also note that the word "ethics" were not written here by me.
The exact point is referring to the title "the poor with the strategy of the rich". Replace "strategy" by "choice" and we're on the sma line.
The discussion I wished to arrise is: when does your ethic get packed-off?
or: is money your only target?
or: what are you ready to do in order to get success? and what kind of success?
or again: what is the value of your moral behavior?
etc.

Let me bring another thing I've refused in the past:
As consultant in my advertising agency, I know that showing one or two young ladies, nearly naked, lying on the sundeck of yacht, almost offered so one (man) can think "if I can buy the boat, I'll be able to...." makes the sales.
I have always refused to do such shots. And believe me, it's hard nowadays, to explain to a shipyard manager that you won't help him to sale boats with such image because this is unethical!
But I do.


Typical French questionning isn't it? hé?

 

[Nill Toulme]

...Typical French questionning isn't it? hé?

Mais bien sûr. ;-)

But you say it's not "ethics," and then you say "what is the value of your moral behavior?" Ethics? Morals? B&W? Matters of ethics and morals are not always black and white, but more often shades of gray, non? Although sometimes they are certainly colorful... ;-)

Is this a question of morals, of artistic vision, of mere choice, or of simply not wanting to go outside of one's artistic or even technical comfort zone?

Nill
~~
www.toulme.net

 

[nicolas claris]

But you say it's not "ethics," and then you say "what is the value of your moral behavior?"Ethics? Morals?....

LOL! Ha! talking with a bavard! i am perdu d'avance;-)!

Matters of ethics and morals are not always black and white, but more often shades of gray, non? Although sometimes they are certainly colorful...

yes!
and not the same for everyone, that's what I'd like to know from the others, where are their "acceptable" boundaries...

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

Nicolas,

I feel, if a decision to offer B&W would have opened you a door into a gallery exhibition, I would have done it.

Then again, I can understand where you are coming from, but I just want to point out the importance of a well organised exhibition in one of the better known galleries. May be they could agree to a split something like 70% B7W and 30% color to be displayed?

See, I believe that your color works could equally benefit from it, may be here is something to reconsider?

 

[nicolas claris]

Thanks Georg for your input, but my intent is not a discussion about should I do or not. This I have decided and have no regret.
The discussion about B&W has been held already in another topic here in OPF.

I for now stick here to:

Matters of ethics and morals are not always black and white, but more often shades of gray, non? Although sometimes they are certainly colorful...

yes!
and not the same for everyone, that's what I'd like to know from the others, where are their "acceptable" boundaries...

Thanks for reading me (again!)

 

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Georg for your input, but my intent is not a discussion about should I do or not. This I have decided and have no regret.
The discussion about B&W has been held already in another topic here in OPF.

I for now stick here to:

yes!
and not the same for everyone, that's what I'd like to know from the others, where are their "acceptable" boundaries...

Thanks for reading me (again!)

Nicolas,

You presented your own fait accompli decision and now ask about everyone else's boundries!

Amazing that you put such strict boundries on us! We are not allowed to visit your unwillingness to extend your own boundry into B&W! It's like Bush asking "I had the choice of invading and bombing Iraq, it was to me a matter of soul and self respect. What are you world leaders ready to do (or not) to be sooooooooo succesfull?....Do you target the short/soon market or the long term?"

You made a choice that has nothing to do with morality, ethics nor self-respect. It's more to do with choice based on your own preferences.

As Jack Flesher pointed out, there's another pro who, through you, has obtained a rare opportunity to expand his audience and career.

However, after all this, you must be happy. Until this, all the work you do fits in with what makes you happy. This way, there are no risks of altering that. For this you are correct.

I would reframe your challenge then, with the modification that the new work should be within the photographer's technical and artistic competence.

Asher

 

[Ray West]

Hi Nicolas,

The purpose of this thread is not about B&W versus color, but I wonder, how, you, other pros would have done facing such situation?
Do you give what your client our your public ask for or do you bring your intent?

I can't comment on my experience wrt photography, but plenty of similar experiences in what I do. I find it is best if I never do anything that I am not happy in doing. If you are not happy in doing B&W, then why do it and be miserable about it? You can do plenty of what you are interested in and enjoy doing. For me it works best if I have only done what the customers want, if it conforms with what I want to do, and if I actually 'like' the customer. It depends how much you value fame and fortune compared to your own integrity. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if the customer is happy with what you have produced - it matters more that you are happy with what you have produced. With your coloured work - everyone is happy. B&W, who knows? You can't be good at everything. It depends on how you measure success.

Best wishes,

Ray

 

[nicolas claris]

Well, a different point of view...

As an "artist", you followed your heart and held firm on your convictions, and all that is well and good; well and good because you obviously are not relying on your art sales to eat...

Back when artists had patrons, I wonder how many of them painted or drew what they were asked to instead of what they wished? It is commonly accepted fact that DaVinci painted the "Last Supper" fresco under duress; not at all what he wanted to do, but he did it to satisfy a contract, all political issues present at that time aside.

As a working "Pro", I feel you should be able to see in B&W as well as color, shoot film or digital as the situation calls for and alter either of those mediums any way necessary to meet the needs of your client. Moreover, you had a client that liked your work and was willing to pay you for it; in my opinion you possibly made a mistake: You wasted a shot at a good gig, wasted a chance to be seen by new viewers, vendors, collectors and curators at a landmark event. In Cannes. AND you possibly lost a client...

But hey, this is just one perspective. And at least by holding firm on your convictions you gave another artist (or working pro) a great opportunity to be discovered -- you should feel good about that!

Cheers,

Bonjour Jack

Though you're not talking about your own experiences, you talk on general meanings and not specifically about B&W. Thanks for that.

I don't think I am an artist, I am a photographer who mainly shoot what his clients want -provided that they do hire me for my style (I rarely have vision)-

Then my agency uses or not my shots for marketing (some of my clients have there own agency, some others are magazines for whom I shoot editorial).

Therefore I do my living from my photographic work. If I lose a client there, I lose it also for the rest.

And I lose income.

Taking the decision to accept or not a job is a real strong decision.

In the particular case, this client is not lost and didn't want me to shoot specifically but wanted me to provide B&W previous shots (that doesn't exist but could technically been done).

B&W is not my world (for more on this see here).
The reason of my refuse is -in this topic- completely anecdotal, it could be for a different reason (political, moral, social etc.)

Working as a pro doesn't necessarely means "mercenaire", I have developped a style that is evolving shoots after shoots, but still rely on my preferences. This style is why most of my clients come to me or keep regular.

Why should I do something I don't like or am against? (see other example a little above about "almost naked girls that make sales".

Why should I change the perception that people have of my work, including something false?

My freedom is worth it.

I certainly left the place for another photog, as I did 2 weeks ago when I refused to shoot with a 50% discount for another client. This one is lost for me and this is "tant mieux"!

On the contrary as Ashers tends to say, I am not studborn, I am not dogmatic. On the contrary! I am open to new tehcnics, new approaches, new contacts, new lights, new subjects.

But new not old.

I tend to think I proved it.

Once again, may I ask to others how they face a client that ask something that "normally" they wouln't do?

Feel good!

 

[nicolas claris]

Hi Ray

and thanks for the support in the discussion;-)

Yoour post went when I was answering to Jack, you said it all!

However:

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if the customer is happy with what you have produced - it matters more that you are happy with what you have produced

I need (really deeply) my customers to be happy.... and me to!

It depends how much you value fame and fortune compared to your own integrity

Guess my choice!

 

[Paul Bestwick]

Hey Nicolas,

stand by your principles, are there any other options ? I for one would have taken your exact course of action & refused those bastards...........how dare they make such an offer. But maybe on another day I would have been breaking out the Moet in celebration of my new B&W project.
You know the good fortune is that we are blessed to be in such a privileged position. Firstly to make a living from creating images & secondly being able to pick & choose the jobs/exhibitions we will or wont do.

Cheers,

Paul

 

[Georg R. Baumann]

and not the same for everyone, that's what I'd like to know from the others, where are their "acceptable" boundaries...

A few examples, let's say a client aproaches me with 10.000 Dollar in his hands and wants me to shoot a couple of portraits from a well known ultra right wing political leader. - Thanks, but no. -

Someone offers me 20.000 to shoot porn. - Thanks, but no. -

Someone offers me 30.000 to shoot a sexy Lady stretching out on a Bugatti Veyron. - Yeah, thanks, I have no problem with that, but I double my income and ask for 60.000! <grins> -

 

[nicolas claris]

Hey Nicolas,

stand by your principles, are there any other options ? I for one would have taken your exact course of action & refused those bastards...........how dare they make such an offer. But maybe on another day I would have been breaking out the Moet in celebration of my new B&W project.
You know the good fortune is that we are blessed to be in such a privileged position. Firstly to make a living from creating images & secondly being able to pick & choose the jobs/exhibitions we will or wont do.

Cheers,

Paul

Hi Paul
yep! I've always driven my life like this, this may explain why I'm not rich! (money wise

 

[nicolas claris]

A few examples, let's say a client aproaches me with 10.000 Dollar in his hands and wants me to shoot a couple of portraits from a well known ultra right wing political leader. - Thanks, but no. -

Someone offers me 20.000 to shoot porn. - Thanks, but no. -

Someone offers me 30.000 to shoot a sexy Lady stretching out on a Bugatti Veyron. - Yeah, thanks, I have no problem with that, but I double my income and ask for 60.000! <grins> -

Proposition 1 - Ok! but what if the client (an editor in a news mag for example) is not from a well known ultra right wing political leader?

Proposition 2 - Ok!

Proposition 3 - what was it? ah yes! well it depends what is the purpose of the pic? <sigh>