Should active OPF members be generally expected to post images?

[Cem_Usakligil]

Sorry, no passport this evening as I need to be ready for the coming working week. But a couple of quick thoughts for now:

- The key is to contribute to OPF. That may include images, critique, technical information etc. We are not here just to pat each other on the back, but to help each other develop our own photography. That works on many levels and requires consideration of other people's point of view and experience.

- We are not a chat forum. We do chat because we have built some empathy as a result of sharing our work and ideas - that is good and natural, but the chat is based on at least some level of relationship we have built and not just because we're in the same room.

- By sharing and discussing our work and ideas we learn where each of us is coming from. I have read Rachel's, Asher's, Bart's, Cem's, Fahim's, Nic's, Ken's etc comments many times. I know something of their approach and their style and how that influences their critique - but they are all still capable or surprising me so I need to keep an open mind.

- Sharing work, as with other ideas, makes us vulnerable. Work particularly, because we are putting up something that reflects us and then opening it/ourselves up for critique. I firmly agree that anything I post can be commented upon freely, and have no issue with people reworking to share their ideas. Even if I don't follow the suggested path I still learn, and one of my favourite pictures directly resulted from challenge from Asher around a whimsy I posted.

- We do all of this civilly. We remember the person who made themselves vulnerable and we care for them. We do not seek to pull people or their work down. We may ask for an explanation, but that is to allow us to consider whether the work succeeds before a wider audience. Ken is often direct, but he spends time thinking about work before commenting and his comments are perceptive and valuable.

- For all of this to work, we each need to earn our place. This isn't based on experience or merit, but is based on having the honesty and vulnerability to risk placing our work etc in front of others knowing that will impact on how our contributions are weighed. We are not 'internet experts' who have plenty of opinion and nothing to back it up that's too easy and cost free, but it profits nothing. But, we gather in Asher's home at his invitation to share our ideas and discuss photographic topics - a forum if you will. We have some very distinguished artists here - where else would Alain pop in to pay his dues, and there are many others some already mentioned - who take the time to help others less far along that path.

So to be a part of all that anyone needs to be open, willing to make themselves vulnerable and willing to contribute. Not just their views that leave them the ditant expert, but their own work, thoughts and ideas. That requires some humility, but then we can get to know them and they us and we are an open photography forum that retains its unique character. As Ken said earlier, there aren't many serious photographic places on the internet where you can admit shooting jpeg and not be ridiculed or ex-communicated.

Finally, it does work. I am not a founding member, but i have been made welcome, encouraged and have learnt more by sharing work here than in any other place. So, Erik, share some work, chill out and let us all get to know you and your work, and you get to know us. Then you will be welcome and we will know where you are coming from and vice versa.

Sorry that was longer than I intended and probably rambles a bit, but OPF is unique in my experience and that is worth holding on to.

Mike


PS Ken's headshot. Still great.

Thanks Mike, I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Cheers,

 

[Rachel Foster]

Ok, this has been a good discussion. I'll look forward to the conclusions and the guideline that the Powers develop. I may not agree with them (or I may, you never know) but I will abide by them.

 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

The one thing i have heard from 3 photographers is that when they saw the web size image of mine it looked a bit washed out but when they saw my actual prints they look great...I dont know why that would be be it from compression from the tool i use to re-size to a low res web file or what.....

We might be able to help with the web versions, if we could see those images. OPF members are not a lynching mob, far from it. We do have opinions, and are not scared of the opinions of others, how else would we be able to grow, if not for a sounding board of kindred spirits?

Cheers,
Bart

 

[ErikJonas]

...................

So Asher you did not answer about me sending you 3 or 4 of my images to post???

And does the forum name get changed with the new rules that will be put in?...If one MUST post pictures to be here and talk then it is NOT "Open"...Open sounds welcoming not limited to just photographers....

I try to make most of my post about photography.Some misc items i have posted about but thats usually what a general part of the forum is for...

The more a forum is limited, the less interactive it is, the less popular it is and thats how some people want it. I have been on forums where it was just small, a dozen or so people and they liked it that way. They didnt want change or new people.

How long has this forum been around?

Rachel was that a macro shot?

 

[ErikJonas]

...........

Thanks Bart....Its nice to meet you...I live in Washington state....I have a fair idea here thus far of who wants to do the lynching pretaining to me.....

This Forum is a little bit higher end then others i have been to,but this is a first the big ta do about posting images....I have never seen this on any forum before....

 

[Rachel Foster]

Erik, trust me, there is no lynch mob after you here. There are strict rules but within those rules OPF is quite tolerant. After all, I burst in here as a brash know-nothing with a 5 mp Kodak point-and-shoot and they've tolerated me. No, they've nurtured me. I, too, rebelled at times and have had a few temper tantrums. But what I've learned is that it works. The rules may not be precisely what each individual would like, but it works extremely well on the whole.

So, post a few images. If you'd like, email some to me and I'll host them on my photobucket site. Take the criticism in the spirit in which it's offered. Me, I take harsh, picky criticism as a gift. That's how I learn. It takes a certain respect to rip into an image, be honest with the photographer, and the photographer should keep that in mind.

So, Erik, let's see some of your work!

 

[Rachel Foster]

Yup, I love my 100 mm macro.

 

[ErikJonas]

..........

And where would you post them? Like here in the Cafe part?....

This from someone who i got off to a not so good start with..... =)

It does not matter what your shooting with...The SLR offers the most control...The light is the romance of the image....Learning the light and how to read it was what took me the longest.

 

[Rachel Foster]

I think you would have to tell me where you would like them. The mods move images to the appropriate forum.

And, you're right. We got off to a horrible start! Second chances can lead to wonderful things, can't they? What do you say?

 

[ErikJonas]

............

PM me your e-mail again....I'm sending some of my very early stuff from 2006 and 2007 before i truely knew what i was doing.....

I have seen images posted in the Cafe section before so i dont see why they could not be here...

When i go to a forum i only pay attention generally to 2 or 3 areas of it and thats part of why i would like them posted here....I'll do a lil write up on each one in the e-mail and when you post them you might copy and paste that in????.....Just location and such...They were all shot with my Pentax ist....Dumbest name for a camer ever....

 

[Rachel Foster]

Sending pm now.

 

[ErikJonas]

.........

I cant find a decent black an white from my early stuff....Oh well....And i'm not sending any images of Jordan....Shes smoking hot and in most of the images shes 16 or 17 and her swimsuit stuff might give someone here a heart attack!!!!....She is amazingly beautiful and very talented as a model....

Going to compose the e-mail and do the write up location wise and such on the images....4 in all........And i need a coke now....You'll see.....

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

Entry ticket

I think that like any internet forums there are those who want to play and those who want to observe. Some who want to play only by their own rules and others who don't play fairly or politely.

I think that the observers who contribute with fair commentary and without agenda should be welcome; I think that newer photographers can be nurtured until they are ready for prime time. As far as posting images, each photographer has to answer to their own self. I limit my postings because I have had images stolen from me via internet. I share here as often as time permits.

Good moderation is fair and just and I think Asher and Nicolas have developed a good number of people who understand the nature of OPF. They are always wiling to lend an ear and give to this community.

If we have a member not willing to be equitable or non-contributing then the mods need to decide, as Nicolas did, if the participation should be allowed going forward.

I don't think we can make this all black and white. Each should be on a case by case basis.

 

[ErikJonas]

...................

Rachel Images sent.....

As for what Kathy says then its NOT a "Open" forum as the name implies.....And note i have not posted a link to any other site i might have, which i dont...This is a picture posting forum...

Again this is very new...I have never seen members so bent on people showing pictures....I mean its just very odd.....9 times out of 10 you can join a forum and talk to people and learn.....Or just someone that loves photography can join and add to conversations....

It will be much nicer when images can just be uploaded from ones computer......But really too bad for the people who admire and want just to talk to the other photographers, this is not allowed......

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

@Erik

No, Erik - you have misread my post.

I did not say Photographs. I said contribute. I do believe you can be a contributer without having your photographs posted. The issue however, is if you don't at least show us some way to understand your vision of a photograph. It doesn't mean that it must be a photograph you have created.

 

[Rachel Foster]

Erik I'm posting your images now. Will post in Still because that's where I post most often.

 

[ErikJonas]

...................

Oh sorry Kathy....That kind of makes sense but you would have to have the photographers permission to post the image wouldnt you?....Maybe not...But anyway....Sorry...

 

[Doug Kerr]

Hi, Erik,

And i'm not sending any images of Jordan

Well, just to respect that concession, I'm not going to send any images of Tiffany.

Doug

 

[Kathy Rappaport]

No one!

If no one sends any images that we can have open photography forum DISCUSSION. Period.

 

[Asher Kelman]

It's very simple. There's no charge for looking through the window and listening to the chat and enjoying the pictures.

If one actually enters and participates, then Mike Shimwell's post, #29 provides the measures of "expected contribution", one way or another. If in doubt, go to the top and reread that and related posts.

Asher

 

[Wendy Thurman]

I post images here for a few reasons, to include:

1. I think it makes me a better photographer. There's the feedback, which I value, and the self-criticism before I post. I've posted some less that good images here and I won't do that anymore. Anything I post here I want to be work that I am proud of or is personally important. More hits, less misses.

2. Posting images includes me in the community here. I take away a lot but I would like to think I am giving back at least something.

OPF is a resource that I value quite a bit and I hope it remains viable. If people would prefer to NOT post images, I am ok with that, but I think those that choose not to contribute imagery may not get the full benefit of what OPF has to offer.

My .02

Wendy

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Addendum: Upon revisiting this thread, and my remarks of yesterday, I realize that I did a very poor job of making one intended point, which is as follows. "Photography" is a very diverse undertaking, not unlike painting or drawing. Cameras can be used as a medium for many types of expressive works. (As Maris' early remarks suggest, too.)

Yet the lingua franca on photo forums such as OPF is a relatively narrow, sentimentalized, personal documentary/snapshot aesthetic. This is not a criticism but rather a self-evident fact. If, say, Uta Barth posted some of her work here (in dinky form) it would likely meet with silence, techie criticism ("Hey, Uta, that ring on the lens is used to focus!"), and resentment that her imagery sells for impressive prices in the contemporary art market.

Yet Uta Barth, and photographic artists like her, are very much part of the photography world and have much to offer. But for them to share such works here would be largely inappropriate and a waste of effort on many levels.

So my point is, in practical terms, that Asher's plea to "post images" is only relevant to a relatively narrow slice of practitioners.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Addendum: Upon revisiting this thread, and my remarks of yesterday, I realize that I did a very poor job of making one intended point, which is as follows. "Photography" is a very diverse undertaking, not unlike painting or drawing. Cameras can be used as a medium for many types of expressive works. (As Maris' early remarks suggest, too.)

Yet the lingua franca on photo forums such as OPF is a relatively narrow, sentimentalized, personal documentary/snapshot aesthetic. This is not a criticism but rather a self-evident fact. If, say, Uta Barth posted some of her work here (in dinky form) it would likely meet with silence, techie criticism ("Hey, Uta, that ring on the lens is used to focus!"), and resentment that her imagery sells for impressive prices in the contemporary art market.

Yet Uta Barth, and photographic artists like her, are very much part of the photography world and have much to offer. But for them to share such works here would be largely inappropriate and a waste of effort on many levels.

So my point is, in practical terms, that Asher's plea to "post images" is only relevant to a relatively narrow slice of practitioners.

I dare say that should Uta Barth or any other contemporary photographic artist should post here, none of us would say something along the lines of "that ring on the lens is to focus!". Silence, I agree with. Resentment? Perhaps, depending on one's character. We are all human beings after all.

Re. the lingua franca on fora covering a narrow bandwidth of photographic arts, it is still is the largest portion in terms of volume of work produced in areas such as landscapes, architecture, portraiture, sports, wildlife, nature, PJ and more. Therefore, I disagree with your conclusion that Asher's plea being relevant to a narrow slice of practitioners. It would be more accurate if you said a wide slice of practitioners with perhaps a narrow and established focus on photography.

Cheers,

 

[Asher Kelman]

Addendum: Upon revisiting this thread, and my remarks of yesterday, I realize that I did a very poor job of making one intended point, which is as follows. "Photography" is a very diverse undertaking, not unlike painting or drawing. Cameras can be used as a medium for many types of expressive works. (As Maris' early remarks suggest, too.)

Yet the lingua franca on photo forums such as OPF is a relatively narrow, sentimentalized, personal documentary/snapshot aesthetic. This is not a criticism but rather a self-evident fact.

Ken,

You make a great point. However, as we've discussed before part of the ability to receive the art that the has been presented to the world, can depend to some extent on comprehending the signals and references the structure, theme, references and motifs the work refers to.

A mother nursing a child or a sentimental soft image of a 1924 ford in B&W do indeed depend on more simple emotional signals and are less demanding to approach and appreciate. Going beyond that depends on exposure, cultural acclimatization, education and challenge.

No one raised their eyebrows to your incomplete image of bare autumn branches to their finest subdivisions shown in a series with patterns from lights in a tall office building. For myself, it was not puzzling but rather the wrong thread to comment on as they deserve. I've copied your post for discussion here.

If, say, Uta Barth posted some of her work here (in dinky form) it would likely meet with silence, techie criticism ("Hey, Uta, that ring on the lens is used to focus!"), and resentment that her imagery sells for impressive prices in the contemporary art market.

Yet Uta Barth, and photographic artists like her, are very much part of the photography world and have much to offer. But for them to share such works here would be largely inappropriate and a waste of effort on many levels.

Well Ken,

You just have shown why I particularly selected your participation as so important to OPF. Not that I'd ever want to miss out on your own photography, but your own shared experiences and ideas already feed the party on a regular basis. You offer expanded horizons where the goal posts can be moved to for us. You are the "contagonist", arguing for what our interest might also extend to. Groups with such a person get an opportunity new vision and some self-evaluation and new ideas. As I've posited before, openness to new experience is critical to art development. That's where Maris, Rusis, Jim Galli and others also challenge us. I assure you, right now, the links you have given are getting a slew of new hits and your criticism works for us.

So my point is, in practical terms, that Asher's plea to "post images" is only relevant to a relatively narrow slice of practitioners.

If I have it right, Ken, our wish is for folk to direct their passion to a goal and exchange the tools to progress and hopefully get there. We're, in a way, a group of fun-loving travelers. Not sharing pictures, in general, adds little fuel or guidance for this tiny yellow tour bus.

Asher

 

[Ken Tanaka]

Asher, Cem;
I really did not intend to sound critical. OPF is perhaps the most open-minded of photo forums. And Cem, you're right; Uta would not get such a snarky comment here. At worst she'd get silence.

 

[Cem_Usakligil]

Asher, Cem;
I really did not intend to sound critical. OPF is perhaps the most open-minded of photo forums. And Cem, you're right; Uta would not get such a snarky comment here. At worst she'd get silence.

Hi Ken,

Your opinions are very valued to me and I wouldn't mind even if it was meant as criticism. The exchange of ideas we have here is to me a process for understanding, learning from each other and lifting one's self to a higher level; not in the last place thanks to justified criticism.

Cheers,

 

[Rachel Foster]

Ah, criticism from Ken: It's something I look forward to and profit from.

 

[Asher Kelman]

In case some missed it, there's a place to look at Ken's new abstract series that's being developed and you can see it here.

 

[ErikJonas]

.............

lol....Thats funny....I know that most photographers here are older...I dont know how many follow the modeling end of things specially on the freelance side of it and what the young girls wear or dont wear specially in the competitive markets like NY,CA and FL.....When you get to a lot of older photographers they still see things with a 70's perspective and others are made uncomfortable by someone whos so young and can be so incredably hot.

On another forum i got in trouble for posting her glamour an swimsuit images cause other forum members would surf the forum while at work and viewing such images in the work place might get them fired....I was like wait if they are at WORK should'nt they be WORKING...

Funny comment though Doug.... =)

Hi, Erik,


Well, just to respect that concession, I'm not going to send any images of Tiffany.

Doug

 

[Rachel Foster]

Erik, I might gently point out: Observations about the age of other photographers begs the question of your own.

Also, many of the members here have shot some exquisite nudes. Dear Erik, you are stereotyping. I encourage you to look at some of the work here. It might knock your socks off.