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  #31  
Old April 14th, 2012, 11:51 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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NASA-HALLAS


The first picture of the Milky Way. The second much nearer home.

I asked myself the question in the above two images; What/where is the art and who ( or what ) is the artist? Some could also question if it is art to start with.
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  #32  
Old April 14th, 2012, 12:09 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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The man who's the most logical and exact come from the only place in Europe that's honest and accountable about it's past, (and leads Europe in responsibility for work, thrift, generosity and confidence in the future).
I think that you are mistaken. If it is the man I am thinking about, he comes from the place of Descartes.
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  #33  
Old April 14th, 2012, 12:10 PM
Jerome Marot Jerome Marot is offline
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What/where is the art and who ( or what ) is the artist?
You Fahim, of course. Don't be too modest.
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  #34  
Old April 14th, 2012, 01:50 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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I think that you are mistaken. If it is the man I am thinking about, he comes from the place of Descartes.
Well, Descartes is even more fitting for you then:

" He is also famous for having promoted a new conception of matter, which allowed for the accounting of physical phenomena by way of mechanical explanations. However, he is most famous for having written a relatively short work, Meditationes de Prima Philosophia (Meditations On First Philosophy), published in 1641, in which he provides a philosophical groundwork for the possibility of the sciences."

After all, You Jerome seem to tackle matter from first principles of observation and attempts at derivations and proof. That science was brought from the Arab scholars, the custodians of everything that was not burnt in the tragedy of the library at Alexandria**.

Asher

**Damn Antonio for granting Cleopatra's wish for the libraries of the Roman Greek settlements in the West of what's now Turkey, to be moved to Alexandria in the first place. That led to one of the most serious setbacks for knowledge, science, literature and human discourse.
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  #35  
Old April 14th, 2012, 02:10 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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You Fahim, of course. Don't be too modest.
Jerome, I honestly do not know how to reply here!!

But I do appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Regards.
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  #36  
Old April 14th, 2012, 02:19 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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This following one at a street corner. Since street corners have been mentioned as being able to reveal the simplicity of life itself.

"Stand on any corner of any boulevard with a camera and the simplicity of life will reveal itself. At that moment the simple action of seeing and recording a fragment of the world through the lens of a camera is as unique and profound as it comes ".

And, of course, I too wanted to experience a unique and profound moment.


I have highlighted the word ' recording '. It has a very important role to play(!).
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  #37  
Old April 14th, 2012, 04:01 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Tom Denning has made a few posts in this thread in which he raises issues that need to be addressed.

I shall certainly do so in due course.

However, I would like the viewers and readers of OPF to read and re-read carefully what Tom himself has to say about himself:

“ ....I agree with all the things you have suggested about my inconsistencies, mind changing, contradictions and downright pigheadedness. That's the beauty of an open mind. I can change it at will and I don't have to ask anyones permission or seek approval. Why, tomorrow I might even wake up and believe in a god or Santa or the Easter bunny. So there's not much point in quoting me from the past. For all you might know I might have had a sex change operation, converted to Catholicism, taken up roots in a monastery in Tennant Creek and recruited an army of Congolese to assist with the take over of the National Library of The Outer Hebradese.”

Imagine a doctor saying something similar to his/her patients.
A politician, in an election year, to his/her electorate. A teacher to his/her students. A lawyer to his/her client. A parent to his/her children.

I have to seriously consider, given the above assessment of Tom of himself by himself, if there could be a rational discourse between us. Is the person that proclaims “..the whole premise of this thread is, to say the least, suffering from logical corrosion..” is himself free of such?
Should I expend the time and effort to try and formulate rational responses to present to a person that proclaims “ tomorrow I might even wake up and believe in... the Easter bunny.”

Are these the pronouncements of a rational, logical mind? I need to devote some more time to think this through. I urge you all to do the same.
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  #38  
Old April 14th, 2012, 05:05 PM
Mark Hampton Mark Hampton is offline
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Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
This following one at a street corner. Since street corners have been mentioned as being able to reveal the simplicity of life itself.

"Stand on any corner of any boulevard with a camera and the simplicity of life will reveal itself. At that moment the simple action of seeing and recording a fragment of the world through the lens of a camera is as unique and profound as it comes ".

And, of course, I too wanted to experience a unique and profound moment.


I have highlighted the word ' recording '. It has a very important role to play(!).
Black and white film scanned and printed - nice Fahim... She likes the old fashioned way of working it so real...

Neither is it necessary to resort to contorted manipulation of the mundane natural objects to recognize the art inherent in them. This form of ' shock and awe art ' is invariably used by those that are desirous of ' look at me. I am different '. The mantra ' see differently ' is a tired one. Different, yes. Artist, no.

She doesn't do contradicksions well - although She did create Irn Bru.
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  #39  
Old April 14th, 2012, 09:22 PM
Robert Schillinger Robert Schillinger is offline
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Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post
Tom Denning has made a few posts in this thread in which he raises issues that need to be addressed.

I shall certainly do so in due course.

However, I would like the viewers and readers of OPF to read and re-read carefully what Tom himself has to say about himself:

“ ....I agree with all the things you have suggested about my inconsistencies, mind changing, contradictions and downright pigheadedness. That's the beauty of an open mind. I can change it at will and I don't have to ask anyones permission or seek approval. Why, tomorrow I might even wake up and believe in a god or Santa or the Easter bunny. So there's not much point in quoting me from the past. For all you might know I might have had a sex change operation, converted to Catholicism, taken up roots in a monastery in Tennant Creek and recruited an army of Congolese to assist with the take over of the National Library of The Outer Hebradese.”

Imagine a doctor saying something similar to his/her patients.
A politician, in an election year, to his/her electorate. A teacher to his/her students. A lawyer to his/her client. A parent to his/her children.

I have to seriously consider, given the above assessment of Tom of himself by himself, if there could be a rational discourse between us. Is the person that proclaims “..the whole premise of this thread is, to say the least, suffering from logical corrosion..” is himself free of such?
Should I expend the time and effort to try and formulate rational responses to present to a person that proclaims “ tomorrow I might even wake up and believe in... the Easter bunny.”

Are these the pronouncements of a rational, logical mind? I need to devote some more time to think this through. I urge you all to do the same.
Then again, would you like it of your doctor, lawyer or political leader refused to change their minds as new information comes in?

We change and grow over time... if we're lucky that is! And as far as rational discourse goes, shouldn't it be more about the questions rather than the person with the questions and/or answers?

But to take a broader view, since this thread is about the nature and meaning of art, I have a feeling that rationality is of limited use anyway.

My take at this time is that "Art" is whatever one or more people agree that to call something at any particular time. I do not see any reason to accept that there is, or should be, some a priori definition or set of parameters by which we say "this is, this isn't".
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  #40  
Old April 14th, 2012, 09:52 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert Schillinger View Post
Then again, would you like it of your doctor, lawyer or political leader refused to change their minds as new information comes in?

We change and grow over time... if we're lucky that is! And as far as rational discourse goes, shouldn't it be more about the questions rather than the person with the questions and/or answers?

.....
Hello Robert.

Of course I would like my doctor to modify his/her diagnosis/treatment in the light of new information based on consultations with his/her colleagues; but that is different then what Tom says here:

"..I can change it at will and I don't have to ask anyones permission or seek approval..." I certainly wouldn't want that from my doctor.

Discourse is usually with a person or amongst persons. One enters into a discourse on the assumption that
the parties involved are amenable to and accepting of rational thinking. Not those that maintain " I can change it at will and I don't have to ask anyones permission or seek approval.".

Best regards
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  #41  
Old April 14th, 2012, 11:03 PM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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I started this thread to show some of the images I had made by looking at ordinary things . I further qualified it by saying that I was looking for ‘ the Artist’s work ‘. The ‘ Artist ‘ I speak of is, in all Abrahamic religions, the Creator; God.

One of the comments to my posts in this thread is by Tom Denning and I quote:

“ My classes start in 2 weeks time. How excited I am to be able to introduce this new concept, brought to light by such astute people. My students will be enthralled.
'Forget the technique,' I'll cry from the pulpit. 'Cancel your subscriptions to Better Photography'. Throw away your megapixels and fancy glass. Ignore everything I said about Form, structure, composition, tone and contrast last term. Just point the camera and press. God will take care of the rest.
....
What a revelation. “

Tom, since you talk of "What a revelation", could you please reveal to me too, where in this thread have I suggested anyone to follow such foolish instructions as those that you mention ( and quoted above ).
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  #42  
Old April 14th, 2012, 11:20 PM
Tom dinning Tom dinning is offline
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Well said, Robert.
And Fahim as well.
All of you have done exceptionally well here. Just before someone shifts this post off to another place because it may seem a bit off the track, I would like to say that it is very much on the track. Photography for a large number of us isn't some separate entity that comes to mind just after dinner on a Sunday evening or appear before us like a cigarette after sex.
It is mingled with what and who we are. It fits the tapestry of our lives like a golden thread. It neither binds us or dominates. It just is, like having breakfast and chatting to our beloved or shopping for the groceries and thinking about next weeks labours.
Because photography is a part of who we are we are very passionate about it, as we well might be about all aspects of our lives. This is a good thing. Each of you have expressed that passion effectively and although few of us may falter in our beliefs it is wise to recognise that our core beliefs are irrevocably tied to what we do.
Fahim takes photos with his beliefs guiding him as I do mine. Fahim is seemingly unchangeable in his beliefs as I am not. Fahim records the world as he sees and is guided to do. I go about taking pictures with a never ending fascination for what I am able to do with so few beliefs of which are in constant flux.
We are as far apart on the scale of creativity as we could be yet we both make photos. How nice is that.
When I look at any photo on this forum I don't consider who or what you are. I look at the photo with the same interest and fascination I would look at something from Adams or Leibowitz. The photo is a separate entity and can be appreciated for what it is and what it might represent. That's up to me.
As for the rest of the stuff, I do enjoy finding out how passionate people can be by prodding their perceptions, preconceptions and prejudices from time to time.
And finally, Fahim, if you think I'm a bit weird and should be avoided at all costs, you might well be right. I often think the same about myself but unfortunately I am unable to escape my own presence.
I have enjoyed to discourse, as illogical as it may have seemed to some. Thank you for participating.
Cheers
Tom
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  #43  
Old April 14th, 2012, 11:33 PM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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So there we have it. On one side, we look around and appreciate "what was created". On the other hand we are in awe of "what is there". From my point of view, what counts, in the end, after we're through, is not our belief, but what we do with the opportunities we have. Thoughts might have potential and one can argue about what one thinks and believes until the cows come home!

What counts is what we do. All of us have passion for our photography and good examples to show for our efforts.

Tom teaches photography. When he does that, he's as constant as a morning star. In a conversation here, he just doesn't want to be pigeon holed and classified. He wants the freedom of a creature of the wild to hide where he likes for this night and maybe he'll be back tomorrow, or not. He does that to protect his way of life. Yes it's disturbing to a lot of folks, but that's Tom. He does not mount a Crusade to attack those who do not share his beliefs. He simply uses sarcasm. I think that's a pretty harmless way of dealing with arguments that have no hope of being resolved by logic. He could have said, You are backward in thinking and it's hopeless discussing such matters with anyone who believes in a supreme being. Humor is a way out of this. Unfortunately, Aussie humor is even more difficult than learning to use gerund forms in latin . Don't sweat this one. Take him as he is or just move on.

Fahim has a family and has his faith as a guide. He's constant in that, but also tolerant of others. He has rules too and these protect his way of life. He has his customs and values. He doesn't care whether or not you agree with what he does. The way he travels on his path is crafted already; and he doesn't need our approval.

Essentially what we have to admit is the practical necessity to put aside the differences which cannot be changed in our lifetimes and look to what we can do to share in common. That's the essence of our humanity.

Asher
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  #44  
Old April 15th, 2012, 07:12 AM
John Wolf John Wolf is offline
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Fahim,

I like you sentiment very much. I know it works for you; the intoxicated poet sees the world as a multi-faceted mirror, everywhere reflecting the divine. Who can argue with that lofty state. However....

The word "mundane" is so relative that it's almost useless. Everything is mundane to SOMEONE and extraordinary to someone else. To a mid-westerner like me, accustomed to vast, flat prairie, your scenes are hardly mundane. Even so, I must partly agree with Tom: some of them seem like snapshots to me. But perhaps that's part of your point, that it takes no special technique or eye, but only the heart and soul to SEE.

But if, as Genesis says, we all are created in the "image and likeness" of the Supreme Creator, are we not also creators? If so, we owe it to our own higher nature and to that Power to render creation--not casually--but as befits our deepest capabilities.

If that beauty were apparent to us everywhere, there would be no need for photography. You or I could simply look out our window or into the eyes of our loved ones and that would be sufficient. The miracle of photography, in my view, is that it starts with the mundane, but through our unique perception we create something transcendent, something simultaneously ordinary and extradordinary. Something others likely don't see. We cannot simply point our camera out a window and expect it to say "be."

If Creation really did take an all-powerful Artist seven days of labor, surely we feeble artists should be expected to dig deep into the sublime creative resources with which we have been blessed.

John
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  #45  
Old April 15th, 2012, 08:12 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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Hi John.

' Genesis '!! John, hush please. Even the walls have ears!! Banishment from the ' Landscape Forum ' ensued the last time.



Because my grandpa said what?

You are right of course..well let's split 50/50. John, except for a very very few things for me at least, life
is full of compromises. That is at it should be. How else would we, as a race, survive.

BTW, in my younger days I did drive through the mid-west. Fast!! If only I could it again. Same with my photography, some places I have taken days to get myself ' in-tune '. Others, I drove fast. But that was not necessarily the right choice. It just seemed so at that time.

No lofty ideals for me. Once in a while, very far and few between, I hit lucky and have an image that I want to enlarge and hang on the wall. It does take time, patience, other myriads of small details including the confluence of Leo and the NG10 ( or was it? )!!

I do like to meet people though. That has helped me more than anything else. Even in the most ordinary of places, a person, a smile, old age, a child..click! Those I cherish. Not necessarily as examples of some great work; but examples of how diverse we are..and then how much similar.

I have another advantage that works..come a little closer. please. I am rewarded, sometimes, by miracles ( Asher can I use that word around here!! ).

Stay well and happy John.
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  #46  
Old April 15th, 2012, 10:03 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Originally Posted by fahim mohammed View Post

' Genesis '!! John, hush please. Even the walls have ears!! Banishment from the ' Landscape Forum ' ensued the last time.

Fahim,

Not banishment but release! Here there's were far more lax in risking insulting folk who are intolerant of beliefs other than their own. It's the most dangerous part of OPF and has caused more than a few to leave, LOL! However, if the discussion is based on photographs and is not demeaning then we uniquely allow this and take the costs of walkouts as the costs of encouraging more honest dialog.

Asher
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  #47  
Old April 15th, 2012, 10:05 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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"A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Albert Einstein
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  #48  
Old April 15th, 2012, 10:11 AM
Asher Kelman Asher Kelman is offline
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Fahim Mohammed: Because my grandpa said what?

Of course she makes us full of appreciation of our gifts of such warmth, joy and the child;s unquestioning love for us. But, as you know, we have to look far beyond this, you and I, to prevent our love for our own family allowing us to hurt someone else's.

As Einstein suggests, we have to get out of our "bubbles of delusion" and value much, much, more and of course you do. Seeing your wonder struck innocent and beautiful child shows us much more of what we have in common. We just need to read and re-read Einstein's words and finally exit the bubbles that trap us.

Asher
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  #49  
Old May 15th, 2012, 03:05 PM
Don Ferguson Jr. Don Ferguson Jr. is offline
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Hi John.

' Genesis '!! John, hush please. Even the walls have ears!! Banishment from the ' Landscape Forum ' ensued the last time.



Because my grandpa said what?

You are right of course..well let's split 50/50. John, except for a very very few things for me at least, life
is full of compromises. That is at it should be. How else would we, as a race, survive.

BTW, in my younger days I did drive through the mid-west. Fast!! If only I could it again. Same with my photography, some places I have taken days to get myself ' in-tune '. Others, I drove fast. But that was not necessarily the right choice. It just seemed so at that time.

No lofty ideals for me. Once in a while, very far and few between, I hit lucky and have an image that I want to enlarge and hang on the wall. It does take time, patience, other myriads of small details including the confluence of Leo and the NG10 ( or was it? )!!

I do like to meet people though. That has helped me more than anything else. Even in the most ordinary of places, a person, a smile, old age, a child..click! Those I cherish. Not necessarily as examples of some great work; but examples of how diverse we are..and then how much similar.

I have another advantage that works..come a little closer. please. I am rewarded, sometimes, by miracles ( Asher can I use that word around here!! ).

Stay well and happy John.
What a precious photo. Y'all are blessed
Don
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  #50  
Old July 2nd, 2012, 08:28 AM
fahim mohammed fahim mohammed is offline
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What a precious photo. Y'all are blessed
Don
Don, a very belated response from me. I can only apologize for this oversight.

Indeed, I am blessed. In the sense that I have to be thankful for so so many things that I have been given. As have millions of others.

I Thank God for all that has been given unto me. Definitely, I cannot thank Him enough, ever.
There! Once again I go and use a word that is not very much in vogue around here.

My kindest regards and best wishes to you and your loved ones.
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  #51  
Old July 16th, 2012, 05:57 AM
charlotte thompson charlotte thompson is offline
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All I know when I create I am creating from something inside. There seems to be always a balance between "light and dark"
I am not religious. I am spiritual. I was educated Catholic and that has to be in my work as part of my past. There also is a present "insisting"-

Charlotte-
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