News: SNS-HDR, a new realistic tonemapper

Hi folks,

It can be quite a struggle to reproduce the beautiful light we see and photograph on screen, let alone in print. Well, things are starting to look better.

Have a look at the examples on the following page:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pebal/

Those results are made possible with a novel tonemapping method developed by a Polish programmer, Sebastian Nibisz. The application comes in 3 versions. A free one (a commandline version onto which the bracketed exposures can be dropped, and a tonemapped result is produced), and 2 versions with a graphical user interface (difference is the licence for home or business use). The applications are still under development (Version 0.9.9 as of this writing) but things are looking very promising already.

The website (under development as well) where also the trial versions can be downloaded is:
http://www.sns-hdr.com/
Google translation from Polish to English:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sns-hdr.com%2F

Currently SNS-HDR is Windows based, but the author apparently is also working on a Mac version. From what I've seen in the demo version, things look very promising. There are a couple of things that need to be addressed, e.g. color management, but for web publishing the results are already usable.

Cheers,
Bart

I am impressed that folk discover his work, despite the language barrier. The Polish page is so unrelated to languages I know, I couldn't fathom a thing although I 'll try a Polish to English translator.

The most spectacular benefits seems to be rendering of sky and brightness around lights.

This impresses me as a useful effect:



However, in the following picture, with it's superfine micro clarity, there seems to be a blending of the worst effects of what I've seen with HDR with the benefits of the lighting effects.

Here is an example of what I have done using this program today.

Cheers,

Asher Kelman said:

I am impressed that folk discover his work, despite the language barrier. The Polish page is so unrelated to languages I know, I couldn't fathom a thing although I 'll try a Polish to English translator.

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,

I've just added a Polish to English translator link to my initial post.

However, in the following picture, with it's superfine micro clarity, there seems to be a blending of the worst effects of what I've seen with HDR with the benefits of the lighting effects.

Click to expand...

The "home" and "Pro" versions allow to adjust a number of parameters, with a realtime preview update. So the result shown is more one of many renderings possible.

Cheers,
Bart

Thank you Bart for this wonderful find, What an astonishing little program this is.

Cem_Usakligil said:

Here is an example of what I have done using this program today.

Cheers,

Click to expand...

Cem,

So is this a Dutch thing to know of obscure Polish image software geniuses?? Did one of you tell the other? How long has this been used by the two of you? Where did you get the buzz on this very interesting software.

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Cem,

So is this a Dutch thing to know of obscure Polish image software geniuses?? Did one of you tell the other? How long has this been used by the two of you? Where did you get the buzz on this very interesting software.

Asher

Click to expand...

LOL! Bart is very active in many aspects of image processing technology so he knows very quickly when something new hits the streets. And he told me about the SNS-HDR during one of our private conversations about a couple of weeks ago. So then I have gone and tried it using a few bracketed pictures and the stormy weather one from yesterday was also one of those trials. Mind you, two weeks back we still had an alpha version which was crashing all the time and now it is beta and it is almost at version 1. The developer has been working on the sw very intensively all this time.

Cheers,

Have you, or anyone else you know of, run it on a Mac under Parallels?

Asher

Here is another example, executed on a single exposure:


As you can see, the effect can be quite subtle. There is a higher risk of introducing noise when the adjustments are taken to the extreme, but the controls are there to avoid those extremes.

Cheers,
Bart

Asher Kelman said:

So is this a Dutch thing to know of obscure Polish image software geniuses?? Did one of you tell the other? How long has this been used by the two of you? Where did you get the buzz on this very interesting software.

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,

I've been fascinated by light and shadow all my life, but I've also struggled ever since I started in photography to capture and reproduce it faithfully. The conversion process from a high dynamic range reality to a low dynamic range display or print knows a lot of obstacles and compromises. Therefore I'm always on the lookout for new developments that hold a promise.

While SNS-HDR follows a known path, assemble bracketed exposures to an HDR representation of the scene and then tonemap that for an LDR output, it uses a novel proprietary tonemapping method that delivers more natural looking results than what I've seen before, with less effort.

Is it perfect? Of course not, but it's better than most given its challenging task and it hasn't reached version 1.0 yet. There is a number of improvement opportunities, e.g. ghost removal, shadow saturation, color management, import of .EXR files, and a number of user-friendliness improvements, but the progress sofar is impressive. I'm positive that the instability issues will be ironed out as time goes by as it appears that the programming under the hood is of a good quality (multi-processor support, 'real-time' updates, alignment of exposures takes more than simple x/y translation into account, etc.).

I ran into the first mentions of this program on a Retouching forum, and I've been monitoring its progress since. Now that it seems to enter a commercial state of development I thought it useful to bring it to the attention of the early adopters.

I saw it being mentioned that a Mac version was under development as well, so I suggest to follow the SNS-HDR webpage for new developments.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. I'm sure you didn't mean "obscure" in a negative sense, but rather in the sense of hard to detect, out of plain view.

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

Here is another example, executed on a single exposure:


As you can see, the effect can be quite subtle. There is a higher risk of introducing noise when the adjustments are taken to the extreme, but the controls are there to avoid those extremes.

Cheers,
Bart

Click to expand...

As Bart has pointed out, tone mapping on a single exposure is also a possibility. Here is another example of that, but I was much less careful with reducing the controls and the micro contrast than Bart did in his example. In other words, the example below can be toned down in a more careful/conservative approach.







Cheers,

The two approaches, as we normally do and then the new software:







Cem and Bart,

This is nothing less than an amazing rising of the phoenix from lifeless to breathing fire! I'm so impressed! I'd like to send you a portrait to put through this process!

Asher

Asher Kelman said:

Cem and Bart,

This is nothing less than an amazing rising of the phoenix from lifeless to breathing fire! I'm so impressed! I'd like to send you a portrait to put through this process!

Asher

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,

If you think the portrait would benefit from tonemapping, by all means. I wouldn't mind giving it a try, just PM the link. The only restriction of the Demo version is that the output is a limited size JPEG only, and the colorspace would be something like sRGB.

Cheers,
Bart

I'll send t shortly! Thanks!

In the past couple of weeks, Bart and I have continued our work with SNS-HDR. I have started tone mapping images from the past which were not to my satisfaction when tone mapped with other programs. How different things are using the SNS-HDR! Mind you, the program is barely in its version 1.01 and it has various shortcomings (such as color management or ghosting correction not yet being implemented fully). But the creator has a listening ear and very good development skills so I have confidence in the future of the product and have bought it in the meantime.

Here are a couple of examples, both tone mapped using 3 bracketed exposures (-2, 0, +2). These were taken handheld at the Museum of Dali in Figueres, Spain. Bart's extensive tests show that in order to minimize noise the ideal bracket distance would be around 2/3 EV, so my samples would have been much better if I had 7 brackets at 2/3 EV distance. But it is difficult to do that when shooting handheld. Still, I am not complaining about the results, please judge for yourself. Let me know what you think of it pls.










Cheers,

Hi Cem,
On first look, I believe the images look very good.
I've used Photomatix fairly often and these appear much more realistic.
May I ask this of you:
Is it possible to perform (and post) a side-by-side comparison of images processed with SNS-HDR and Photomatix?
Absent a visual comparision, it's hard to realistically judge.

Thanks for all your (and Bart's) work on this!

Cem,

I've just seen this picture from Spain and I'm bowled over with the surprisingly bold composition. What s the central column? It looks like a well trimmed California palm tree.

Asher

John Angulat said:

Hi Cem,
On first look, I believe the images look very good.
I've used Photomatix fairly often and these appear much more realistic.
May I ask this of you:
Is it possible to perform (and post) a side-by-side comparison of images processed with SNS-HDR and Photomatix?
Absent a visual comparision, it's hard to realistically judge.

Thanks for all your (and Bart's) work on this!

Click to expand...

Hi John,

Just to take away any misunderstandings. Photomatix is a very good product and can produce very good results when used wisely. Subjectively speaking, I think that SNS-HDR's algorithm is better than any other I have used to date as it delivers very natural looking results already with the default settings.

When I wrote judge for yourself in my previous post, I did not mean to say that one should judge as in a comparison to Photomatix or anything else. But rather as in: does this picture look natural to you or not? If it doesn't look natural to any layman, then it will stick out as another sore HDR picture and I don't want that. Photographers, of course, will always know consciously that the tonal range must have been compressed to get results like this. But is it also pleasing/acceptable for photographers?

Re. the results of SNS-HDR, anybody can see this for him/herself by downloading the trial versions of both programs and doing some tone mapping with their own pictures. I don't believe I can nor should convince anybody, just convince yourselves, or perhaps not. ;-)

Cheers,

Asher Kelman said:

Cem,

I've just seen this picture from Span and 'm bowled over with the surprisingly bold composition. What s the central column? It looks like a well trimmed California palm tree.

Asher

Click to expand...

Hi Asher,

These were taken at the Museum of Salvador Dali in Figueres, Spain. Dali himself has set up the museum including all creative aspects of the architecture/interiors; and thus by turning the building and the artifacts in it into an artwork in itself.

This central column is covered by old tyres of farm tractors, that is why it may have a texture similar to a palm tree. Atop the column there is a boat; we are looking at the bottom of it in this picture. I stood right underneath the column and took the shot almost vertically using a 17mm lens, trying to achieve the symmetrical composition of the arches, the round enclosure of the sky to the left, etc. Well you can see how it turned out anyway, lol. To the left, there is this huge hall with a glass facade, as can be seen in the second picture. The ceiling of this hall is a giant geodesic dome of glass. So the 1st picture shows the outer (darker) ring of sky which is the reflection of the open sky from the right half of the picture, within it there is a lighter circle of the sky seen through the dome.

All in all, there is such a large range of dynamic range and interactions of glass and lights and reflections within reflections, I thought it would make a very good example to demonstrate the capabilities of SNS-HDR in generating natural looking tone mappings. Did it succeed?

Cheers,

Hi Cem,

Your latest images look very promising.

Photomatix is a very good product and can produce very good results when used wisely

Click to expand...

In fact most tone-mapping methods can produce good results when restraint is exercised. The temptation is to go a bit too far just because you can. DPH has a couple of methods that are quite subtle. My biggest problem with PM is that in some cases it gives the sky a noticeable grey cast.


Regards,

Stuart

Cem_Usakligil said:

In the past couple of weeks, Bart and I have continued our work with SNS-HDR. I have started tone mapping images from the past which were not to my satisfaction when tone mapped with other programs. How different things are using the SNS-HDR! Mind you, the program is barely in its version 1.01 and it has various shortcomings (such as color management or ghosting correction not yet being implemented fully). But the creator has a listening ear and very good development skills so I have confidence in the future of the product and have bought it in the meantime.

Here are a couple of examples, both tone mapped using 3 bracketed exposures (-2, 0, +2). These were taken handheld at the Museum of Dali in Figueres, Spain. Bart's extensive tests show that in order to minimize noise the ideal bracket distance would be around 2/3 EV, so my samples would have been much better if I had 7 brackets at 2/3 EV distance. But it is difficult to do that when shooting handheld. Still, I am not complaining about the results, please judge for yourself. Let me know what you think of it pls.

Click to expand...

Cem,

If all you did was bring us pictures like this, we'd be very grateful as this is spectacular work and a stunning point if view you chose. However, you do so much more. Let me say, on behalf of the forum that if there was a knighthood for OPF and I was the Prince, I'd lift up my jeweled sword and rest it successively on each shoulder and declare, "Arise Sir Usakligil!" But alas, I'm not any royalty and this is just us, a group of photographers getting a lot of pleasure out of doing our best.

I've decided instead, you are not any such knight but you are a Prince! Thanks for all you hard work and devotion to OPF!

and to your friendship with Bart which between the two of you brings us these new ideas that are so helpful.

Asher

Hi, Cem,

Cem_Usakligil said:

Here are a couple of examples, both tone mapped using 3 bracketed exposures (-2, 0, +2). These were taken handheld at the Museum of Dali in Figueres, Spain.

Click to expand...

These are just stunning, on so many different levels.

Best regards,

Doug

Hi Asher, Doug,

You two are way too kind, I am totally blushing right now!

Cheers,

Great pictures Cem. I confess they still look HDR to me, although in the Dali museum they also seem very appropriate and a perfect match for the subject.

Both also show the importance of composition and subject, quite apart from the tone mapping.

MIke

Mike Shimwell said:

Great pictures Cem. I confess they still look HDR to me, although in the Dali museum they also seem very appropriate and a perfect match for the subject.

Both also show the importance of composition and subject, quite apart from the tone mapping.

MIke

Click to expand...

Mike,

Is your issue that everything is so hyper-defined and there's no respite? Is it also, perhaps processing features like the the so slight white inner halo in the opening to the sky? I'm wondering about how one should finally present such miracles of blending.

In my retouching and processing of images, I generally try to put back a certain percentage of the original, overall when making a lot of changes and might sacrifice sharp edges or some parts of the picture to use say 50% or more of an original layer. (Now I have never used an HDR program although use multiple versions from RAW and blend by hand). So I wonder whether there might be some advantage in selectively giving back some of the enhancements in some parts of the image.

This touches on perceptual issues in vision. Usually, there's some gradient of interest, but here, everything is dynamic at once. Is that your sticking point or is it something else?

Asher

I've just downloaded the Lite version of SNS and tried it on the three exposures I used for my comparison web page.

It's a bit slow and appears to output only a small JPEG, but I have to say I was very impressed by the results.

Regards,

Stuart

StuartRae said:

I've just downloaded the Lite version of SNS and tried it on the three exposures I used for my comparison web page.

It's a bit slow and appears to output only a small JPEG, but I have to say I was very impressed by the results.

Regards,

Stuart

Click to expand...

Hi Stuart,

I recommend that you download the pro version which has a gui. With this demo version, you can save files up to the max resolution of your monitor in tif and it beats the lite version's results.

Cheers,

Hi Mike, Asher,

These are very good points you have raised below:

Mike Shimwell said:

Great pictures Cem. I confess they still look HDR to me, although in the Dali museum they also seem very appropriate and a perfect match for the subject.

Both also show the importance of composition and subject, quite apart from the tone mapping.

MIke

Click to expand...

Asher Kelman said:

Mike,

Is your issue that everything is so hyper-defined and there's no respite? Is it also, perhaps processing features like the the so slight white inner halo in the opening to the sky? I'm wondering about how one should finally present such miracles of blending.

In my retouching and processing of images, I generally try to put back a certain percentage of the original, overall when making a lot of changes and might sacrifice sharp edges or some parts of the picture to use say 50% or more of an original layer. (Now I have never used an HDR program although use multiple versions from RAW and blend by hand). So I wonder whether there might be some advantage in selectively giving back some of the enhancements in some parts of the image.

This touches on perceptual issues in vision. Usually, there's some gradient of interest, but here, everything is dynamic at once. Is that your sticking point or is it something else?

Asher

Click to expand...

In order to help you form a better opinion about this particular image, I have converted the middle bracket frame (0EV compensation) using Capture One to the best of my abilities. I have tried to recover highlights and shadows as much as possible in the raw converter.

Additionally, I have done a much more moderate version of the tone mapping with SNS-HDR. The first version was a bit OTT in hindsight.

I hope that this comparison gives an idea where in the picture has tone mapping added value and where it has taken away.

PS: The light halo against the upper arch of the building is also visible in individual raw images, the intensity of light in the sky was indeed like that.



Cheers,

Cem_Usakligil said:

Hi Stuart,

I recommend that you download the pro version which has a gui. With this demo version, you can save files up to the max resolution of your monitor in tif and it beats the lite version's results.

Click to expand...

Indeed, the Pro version has a graphical user interface, and the interactivity with various controls allows to tune the image a bit more easily. At this early stage in development there are still some shortcomings, e.g. the non-colormanaged preview, but a lot of progress has already been made sofar.

One can find (a bit) more info on the SNS-HDR homepage (one can use Google translate or a similar service to translate from Polish to English). The Pro Demo version only saves JPEGs if I remember correctly, but the purchased version also allows to save 16-b/ch TIFFs at full size.

In another forum I've read that a Mac version is planned, but not before third quarter 2010.

Cheers,
Bart

Bart_van_der_Wolf said:

...... The Pro Demo version only saves JPEGs if I remember correctly, but the purchased version also allows to save 16-b/ch TIFFs at full size.

Click to expand...

Hi Bart,
This used to be the case for the beta versions. From version 1, saving tif files is also possible using the demo version . Only restriction is the maximum size of the image, which is one's monitor resolution.

Cheers,