Carla's civic duty

Carla holds duel citizenship. She is a citizen of the United States of America, a consequence of several circumstances of her birth, notably the location: Blackwell, Oklahoma.

She is also a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, for which she qualified by virtue of having demonstrated an unbroken line of descent from a person listed on the Dawes Roll, a census of Cherokee Indians which arrived in what is now Oklahoma after forced relocation from the southwestern United States.

The Cherokee Nation, with over 200,000 citizens, is by far the largest of three "states" of the Cherokee Tribe, which is the second largest Indian tribe in the United states, second only to the Navajo.

This year, for the first time, Carla voted (by mail ballot) in the Cherokee Nation national elections, in which among other things, the Principal Chief (analogous to the President of the United States) and Deputy Principal Chief ("Vice President") are elected.

There were only two candidates for Principal Chief, but a ballot-counting controversy has slowed certification of the result. At the last report, the incumbent (Smith) was ahead of the challenger (Baker) by five votes (the total turnout was about 15,000). The matter will probably end up being resolved, one way or another, by the Cherokee Supreme Court (which sits in Tahlequah, Oklahoma, the Cherokee Nation capital).

For Deputy Principal Chief, there is a runoff. Interestingly enough, one of the candidates is E. Joe Crittenden - presumably a cousin to Carla. (Her maiden name was Crittenden.)

One might wonder about that surname. It resulted from the fact that, as Oklahoma developed, many of the English settlers found the Cherokee women just irresistible (as a certain Scot did many years later).

Just to include a photograph here, this is famed Cherokee babe Marcia Pascal (1/2 Cherokee ancestry) in about 1880:


Carla has just dispatched her ballot for the runoff. The system is very well-organized and secure. Among other things, the mail-in ballot envelopes have to be countersigned by the voter before a Notary Public. (The ballots themselves, of course, are anonymous.)

The Cherokee have always been very advanced in administrative matters. In the southeastern United States, although they very staunchly maintained their tribal traditions, they were also eager to adopt (and adapt) many of the systems and tools of the European settlers. Not too long after the area was colonized, the Cherokee had newspapers and libraries and law courts, as well as up-to-date (for the time) agribusiness operations (including, I'm afraid, slaves, mostly Negro).

You can imagine that the European settlers of Alabama and such felt quite threatened by this state of affairs, and so it was not surprising that eventually President Andrew Jackson was persuaded to arrange for the preponderance of the Cherokee to be forced to relocate to what is now Oklahoma, the centerpiece of which activity was a tragic march called the "Trail of Tears".

Of course, the Cherokee brought what would be today called "government in a box".

Best regards,

Doug

I have just acquired the DVD "Flap", based on the book "Nobody loves a drunken Indian". Expect you would enjoy either of them.
I have long shared your fascination with mixtures of native Americans and the invaders, and have made my own contributions.

Interestingly enough, the election for Principal Chief of the Cherokee Nation came into some difficulty. The first results were extremely close. Some of the mail ballots were potentially invalid - written in pencil, having erasures or white paint emendations, not properly certified on the envelope, etc.

In any case, each recount produced a different number, with the winner never being by more than perhaps 11 votes, often closer - and oscillating between the two directions.

Just today, the Cherokee Supreme Court, contemplating the probable error suggested by the large standard deviation of the results, has declared the result to be incurably statistically indeterminate, and accordingly has invalided the entire election and has ordered that a new one be held.

The runoff for Deputy Chief ("Vice-President") closes in a few days.

The ballots of ᎧᎳ ᏧᎳ ᎠᎩᎦᎨ (Ka-la Tsu-la A-gi-ga-ge) (Carla Red Fox) were of course in scrupulous order.

Stay tuned.

Best regards,

Doug

Hi Doug,

Some of the mail ballots were potentially invalid - written in pencil,.............

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Maybe all voters should be issued with free black biros. Let's hope for better luck with the next election.

Just to include a photograph here, this is famed Cherokee babe Marcia Pascal.......

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She's a very handsome woman, and her image is well preserved on a glass slide. Isn't it strange that I think of women of that era as 'handsome' rather than 'pretty'? My grandmother was handsome, as was my mother, but modern young ladies are pretty. All of them of course are beautiful.

Regards,

Stuart

Marcia Pascal

Doug Kerr said:

Just to include a photograph here, this is famed Cherokee babe Marcia Pascal (1/2 Cherokee ancestry) in about 1880:

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Dear Mr. Kerr,

Sorry if I'm veering off topic a bit here, but I have done a certain amount of historical research on Marcia Pascal (who's last name was actually spelled Paschal--either the photographer or some historian got it wrong for posterity!).

Are you familiar with the other, close up, picture of her from this same session? It is readily available for viewing via the internet.

Since you mention that she is the "famed Cherokee babe", however, I'm wondering if any other photos of her from this period are extant? Your use of the word famed intrigues me even further. Is Miss Pascal "famous" for these photos among photographers? If so, how far back does this fame go? In other words, are these pictures becoming famous due to people stumbling on them fairly recently via the internet (as I did), or have these portraits of her been well known for quite some time?

I must admit that, other than being a huge fan of photographers such as Eugene Atget and Brassai I know virtually nothing about photographic technique. As a result, I would be very interested in hearing information about how these late 19th century glass plate photos were produced, reproduced, and preserved.

One correction, however. I'm certain that the photos from this session were taken later than 1880. Marcia Pascal was born in 1876, so--what?--at the earliest 1890 or possibly even later (it's a bit hard to tell exactly how old she is in these photos, but she most definitely looks older than 14).

And not so much a correction but rather an intriguing notion is the question of her identity as Cherokee. Certainly she was an early example of what today we would call multi-cultural. As far as bloodline, however, her Cherokee lineage came down from her grandmother, who's father in turn was Major Ridge--the famous (and controversial) tribal leader during the Trail of Tears debacle. But Major Ridge himself was of mixed heritage (I believe being at least half-Scot).

Then there is the question of her cultural identity. Miss Pascal, like her father, George Walter Pascal, never lived among Cherokees (as he states himself on his application to the Eastern Cherokee Roll, circa 1909). As far as I can tell, around the time of these photos Marcia was something of a minor, fin de siecle, Washington DC debutante. Her family strongly identified with the US Army: her father was a colonel (he and Marcia's mother are buried in Arlington); and Marcia married a man who was an army quartermaster (ironically who's father was killed by tribal warriors during California's Modoc wars!)

--All this speculation reminds me of the sometimes hotly debated topic of what exactly make a person "Irish"! But the oft-seen claim that Marcia Pascal was 1/2 Cherokee is one that 's a bit tough to defend.

But to sum up, I'll state the obvious: Yes, she was gorgeous--and certainly "a babe" (well, put!).

Thanks in advance for any further thoughts or additional information.

Hi, John,

Thanks so much for the wonderful information on Marcia Pasc(h)al.

John Spradder said:

Sorry if I'm veering off topic a bit here, but I have done a certain amount of historical research on Marcia Pascal (who's last name was actually spelled Paschal--either the photographer or some historian got it wrong for posterity!).

Are you familiar with the other, close up, picture of her from this same session? It is readily available for viewing via the internet.

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I believe I have seen that, but I think I did not capture it.

Since you mention that she is the "famed Cherokee babe", however, I'm wondering if any other photos of her from this period are extant? Your use of the word famed intrigues me even further. Is Miss Pascal "famous" for these photos among photographers? If so, how far back does this fame go?

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I applied the term rather "tongue and cheek", based solely on the evidently-widespread circulation of the picture under discussion!

I must admit that, other than being a huge fan of photographers such as Eugene Atget and Brassai I know virtually nothing about photographic technique. As a result, I would be very interested in hearing information about how these late 19th century glass plate photos were produced, reproduced, and preserved.

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I hope that some of my colleagues here will join in on that - many here are better equipped to contribute than I.

One correction, however. I'm certain that the photos from this session were taken later than 1880. Marcia Pascal was born in 1876, so--what?--at the earliest 1890 or possibly even later (it's a bit hard to tell exactly how old she is in these photos, but she most definitely looks older than 14).

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I picked up the "1880" tag from one of the appearances, and never had much confidence in it.

And not so much a correction but rather an intriguing notion is the question of her identity as Cherokee. Certainly she was an early example of what today we would call multi-cultural. As far as bloodline, however, her Cherokee lineage came down from her grandmother, who's father in turn was Major Ridge--the famous (and controversial) tribal leader during the Trail of Tears debacle. But Major Ridge himself was of mixed heritage (I believe being at least half-Scot).

Then there is the question of her cultural identity. Miss Pascal, like her father, George Walter Pascal, never lived among Cherokees (as he states himself on his application to the Eastern Cherokee Roll, circa 1909). As far as I can tell, around the time of these photos Marcia was something of a minor, fin de siecle, Washington DC debutante. Her family strongly identified with the US Army: her father was a colonel (he and Marcia's mother are buried in Arlington); and Marcia married a man who was an army quartermaster (ironically who's father was killed by tribal warriors during California's Modoc wars!)

--All this speculation reminds me of the sometimes hotly debated topic of what exactly make a person "Irish"! But the oft-seen claim that Marcia Pascal was 1/2 Cherokee is one that 's a bit tough to defend.

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Yes, these are all complex and fascinating (sometimes maddening) matters.

As I'm sure you know, the matter of membership in the Cherokee Nation (quite different from matters of race, or culture, or ethnicity) has a very clear definition: descendance by blood (in whatever degree) from someone listed on the Dawes roll.

And in fact the parameter known by the distasteful name "degree of Indian blood" (DIB) is noted on an official document issued by the Federal Government. (Carla's DIB certificate is signed, on behalf of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, by the same person who signed, as an official of the Cherokee Nation, her certificate of membership in the Nation!)

But to sum up, I'll state the obvious: Yes, she was gorgeous--and certainly "a babe" (well, put!). Indeed!

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Indeed!

Here's another:


Thanks again for getting in touch and all the great info.

Best regards,

Doug

Re: Marcia Pacal

Doug,

Yes! Yet another Cherokee babe! Carla Red Fox is indeed a stunner (and that is quite a dress)!

Thanks so much for getting back to me with your comments.

To confess, I actually have found a third picture of Marcia Pascal: her passport photo from 1921 or '22. Terrible--terrible--shot, but the beauty of her face still shines through somehow. I would post it, but it came to me through a somewhat private source (via Ancestry.com).

Your comments about the Dawes Roll and "DIB" are fascinating. You know, before investigating into Miss Pascal, I was unaware of the existence of the Dawes roll, but as I started to research into that, entirely new historical channels started opening up. Links into the history of (lawyer) Robert Latham Owen, for example--and the mind blowing possibility that this might have been one of the first examples of large scale reparation in US history (perhaps one of the only examples).

Ok, here are just a few more tantalizing tidbits about Marcia Pascal I've found:

- She was born in Texas (her grandfather, George Washington Paschal, was a famous judge and friend of Sam Houston).
- She married at the "late" age of 29 ("late" for her time, perhaps--maybe not though).
- She and her husband had no children and divorced for some unknown reason in 1918.
- Her passport photo was for an extended trip she took to Europe, where she lived throughout the 20s and into the early 30s (smacks at being a rather liberated woman for her time--although, again, maybe not so much for a person of her social rank).
- She lived to be 90 and died in 1967 (in Pasadena, California no less).

There are even more historical mysteries to her story, but I fear sounding like a complete crackpot! I also have vague, ethical concerns concerning my investigations. I am, for example, not in any way, shape or form related to Marcia Pascal. She's just someone who interests me. I'd hate to appear as some type of "historical stalker"!

Anyway, thanks again!

--John

Hi, John,

John Spradder said:

Yes! Yet another Cherokee babe! Carla Red Fox is indeed a stunner (and that is quite a dress)!

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Indeed. I am very fortunate to have this wonderful lady in my life (we have been married now for over 12 years).

Last year she danced in the Sacred Circle at the Pow-Wow at the Cherokee National Holiday Tahlequah, Oklahoma.

She did the same dance (Kiowa Butterfly Dance as a Fancy Shawl dance) as her talent presentation when she was in this year's Miss Senior Parker County pageant (she placed second overall).

Thanks so much for getting back to me with your comments.

To confess, I actually have found a third picture of Marcia Pascal: her passport photo from 1921 or '22. Terrible--terrible--shot, but the beauty of her face still shines through somehow. I would post it, but it came to me through a somewhat private source (via Ancestry.com).

Your comments about the Dawes Roll and "DIB" are fascinating. You know, before investigating into Miss Pascal, I was unaware of the existence of the Dawes roll, but as I started to research into that, entirely new historical channels started opening up. Links into the history of (lawyer) Robert Latham Owen, for example--and the mind blowing possibility that this might have been one of the first examples of large scale reparation in US history (perhaps one of the only examples).

Ok, here are just a few more tantalizing tidbits about Marcia Pascal I've found:

- She was born in Texas (her grandfather, George Washington Paschal, was a famous judge and friend of Sam Houston).
- She married at the "late" age of 29 ("late" for her time, perhaps--maybe not though).
- She and her husband had no children and divorced for some unknown reason in 1918.
- Her passport photo was for an extended trip she took to Europe, where she lived throughout the 20s and into the early 30s (smacks at being a rather liberated woman for her time--although, again, maybe not so much for a person of her social rank).
- She lived to be 90 and died in 1967 (in Pasadena, California no less).

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All fascinating. I hope you can find even more.

There are even more historical mysteries to her story, but I fear sounding like a complete crackpot!

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Not at all. You may see from some of my work here that I will often seize on a newly-learned fact and spend many many hours in pursuing numerous threads of facts about it. It might be about locomotive valve gear, or insulin pens, or the focusing mechanism of an obscure lens, or some curiosity of language.

It is wonderful that you do that.

I am today tracking down a copy of a tape transcription of a movie (1940 release) in which Carla may have (at age 1, in her mother's arms) appeared as an extra.

A problem is that there was another film of the same name (1931 release), and many of the available tapes in circulation have been made from the wrong master.

I also have vague, ethical concerns concerning my investigations. I am, for example, not in any way, shape or form related to Marcia Pascal. She's just someone who interests me. I'd hate to appear as some type of "historical stalker"!

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You have no reason to be uneasy about your research. People may think many things, which are of no consequence. Such people are in fact also often of no consequence.

Let's keep in touch.

Best regards,

Doug

Looping back to the original premise of this thread, indeed the Cherokee Supreme Court invalidated the June election for Principal Chief and ordered a new election to be held on September 24.

In fact Carla just today had the mailing envelope for her mail ballot notarized and sent it in.

Neither of the candidates have come out against evolution or the federal government.

Best regards,

Doug

Doug,

You are indeed a very lucky man. I checked out Carla's book at Lulu. It looks like a fantastic read--brains and beauty too! If I can get through all the other stuff I'm reading right now, I'd very much like to pick up a copy.

That's also wonderful that she's keeping her heritage alive through traditional dance. I lived for quite a while right next door over in New Mexico and really got immersed in the various Pueblo cultures in the area (I had the good fortune to actually be invited to a Zuni Shalako one year--an incredible experience!).

Keep us posted on your work to discover the movie Carla might have been in! That's fun stuff to research. I'm a huge classic movie buff--just rewatched the classic Joan Crawford noir "Sudden Fear" last night (what the heck--there was no ballgame last night, and the Giants are losing anyway).

Also, thanks so much for your assuaging my fears about my historical work (such as it is) on Miss Pascal. I'm not exactly sure what to do with all the information I've gleaned from the web, although I'm thinking about possibly creating some kind of a website for it (but as soon as I think about that, the idea seems pretty dumb to me).

I seriously know what you mean about "seiz[ing] on a newly-learned fact and spend many many hours in pursuing numerous threads of facts about it". The internet is making that easier and easier to do every day--the process, to me, often seems similar to what Herman Hesse might have been trying to get at in his novel The Glass Bead Game (which, of course, nobody reads anymore!).

I need to follow up on reading through your original thread on "Carla's Civic Duty". This also seems like a very interesting topic--and I promise to do so.

With that in mind, can you point me to anything that might explain what was going on with the Dawes roll? For example, what, if anything, is the difference between the Dawes roll and the Guion (sp?) Miller roll? Actually, are there any good books out there on Cherokee history in general you'd recommend that might cover all this?

Thanks again!

-JS

John Spradder,

I seem to have dropped the ball on your message from September, 2011:

John Spradder said:

With that in mind, can you point me to anything that might explain what was going on with the Dawes roll? For example, what, if anything, is the difference between the Dawes roll and the Guion (sp?) Miller roll? Actually, are there any good books out there on Cherokee history in general you'd recommend that might cover all this?

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Basically, the Dawes roll enumerated Cherokee in what is now Oklahoma - those who basically traveled the Trail of Tears. It is the predicate for establishing the right to be considered a member of the Cherokee Nation.

The Guion Miller roll enumerated Cherokee of what came to be known as the Eastern Band - those who remained in the Southeastern US.

Carla is the expert on books on Cherokee History (of which she has quite a collection). I'll have her put together a list of references.

Best regards,

Doug