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Open Source... to what extend?

Greetings,

out of curiosity, does anyone around here use open source, and to what extend? What are your experiences?

A friend of mine did the hard switch and has everything from open source now, complete.

I think I will get myself one of those Live DVD's, Knoppix, and see how my hardware can get along with it, as I have some doubts about specialities like Matrox Parhelia and available drivers.

In general, I find the idea and concept of open source excellent.

Alternative to Adobe would be Gimp, however, I have no experience with gimp and do not know to what extend it is comparable to photoshop.
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Georg,

afaik gimp is not icc colour aware. Generally speaking, software that is licensed in the normal way is more suited to folk who can pay for the product, the open source stuff is generally like a beta/lite version, imnsho. I have found nothing open source that is better than a normally licensed product. (I am aware that open source is not the same as 'free', etc. - when I say 'licensed in the normal way' I mean as adobe/mac/ms etc. sell their software.)

As you mention, Knoppix, then you are talking linux - you will be truly wasting your time trying to get all your stuff to work. I am not saying you won't succeed, but as things progress, you will find that new add-ons will not have much in the way of linux drivers.

I think, Georg, there are much better things you could spend your time on ;-)

Best wishes,

Ray
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Hi Georg,

Just a very quick reaction since I have to rush to a meeting. As a photography and video enthusiast and IT specialist at the same time, I am somewhat torn on this issue.
I use open source s/w for my server applications (based on Ubuntu & Debian). Ideally, I'd want to do this for all my work. But creating a fully functional graphics workstation is not yet practical due to the lack of certain apps so I keep on using Windows for that (mind you; this is my personal opinion!). Gimp is nice, but it is limited to 8-bit filters and processing. There are no open source applications that resemble (let alone can replace) Lightroom (or DxO or LightZone, etc). On the video front, I use Avid and Premiere which are not easily replaceable either.

Re. the RAW conversion issues, some producers such as Nikon encode parts of their RAW files . Parts of those RAW files can only be accessed using original or licenses third party software and this is contradictory to the concept of "open source". Drivers/convertors using those licensed parts won't be "open source" by definition.

As I wrote, got to go now. HTH.

YMMV.

Cheers,

PS: Ray is right, there is no color management in Gimp.
PS 2: You can have the best of both worlds by running virtualization software (eg run essential or unique Windows apps in a Linux box using VMWare). But this not an "open source" solution. Open source is not equal to free, as Ray pointed out but has got to do with the licensing and source code of a software.
 
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Jörgen Nyberg

New member
And George, don´t forget music software.
I would guess that you have some heavy investments in that, and as far as I know, there isn´t any commercially availlable for linux (even VST´s are os specific, methink´s).
Timing vise, I think it would be a bad idea running that under an emulator.
 
@Ray, It was just out of curiosity to learn whether some around here use open source.

@ Cem, a fried of mine had a company license for 8x Adobe Acrobat, and he wanted to upgrade this. Normally would have been a few hundred bucks. But when they learned that he wanted to get Acrobat for Windows 2003 Terminal Server, they said he needs a different one, for over 6.000 euro. Ridiculous.

Since then he is also on Debian etc.

I sympathize with the open source concept very much so, it is a strong contrast to the rip off culture some of these Gangsters in some of the well known bigger companies have established.

Some Adobe Products have a 190% higher price in many European Countries than in the US for example. Again, ridiculous, even with higher taxes and localisation this is not justified.

@Joergen, exactly! <smile>

Unfortunately we are in the stranglehold of companies who dominate the entire scene, as soon as you have more specific needs, such as viedo/photo/music, open source is no solution afaik.

Having said that, I guess for the odd office job, standard software and browser stuff, open source sure is an alternative not to be underestimated.
 

Ray West

New member
Hi Georg,

No such thing as a free lunch. There are many reasons why the open source paradigm will not work in some specialist software areas. It works better where the specialist users are capable of writing code. Not easy to make money from open source stuff, so it will remain a bit 'amateurish' - not the right word, but it'll have to do. (much of it is written by folk who are in paid work elsewhere, or students, etc.)

The 'gimp' is available foc for the pc http://www.gimp.org/windows/ if that is any use, no need to change your os. I don't think you will want to use it ;-) I have used linux in the past, still have a small file server running it, but in reality, win 2k is just as good, and easier for me.

Best wishes,

Ray
 
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Andrew Stannard

pro member
Hi Georg,

My 'normal' job is in creating 3D visualisations, often for realtime use in flight simulators and the like.

We make fairly heavy use of an open source program known as Blender (www.blender.org). It's widely recognised as one of the best open source apps (in terms of features and support when compared to the similar professional 3D apps). Could theoretically produce a full length computer generated feature movie with it if you want - in fact it's also got a decent video editor in it, which I sometimes use for putting together my own clips.

It shows what can be done with Open Source, but like Ray mentioned it's in an area where a lot of the specialist users are happy writing code.

Cheers,
 

Michael Fontana

pro member
Georg

correct me if I'm wrong, but I remind you having a mac. With it and the X-11 from the Boot-DVD, one might run several open-source-apps; I think even Gimp, wich will be colormanaged in the next version, AFAIK......

X-11:

"Prior to the introduction of Mac OS X, virtually the only way developers could create a graphical application in a UNIX-based operating system was with the X Window System, more commonly called X11. X11 for Mac OS X offers UNIX users the ability to run thousands of X11 applications concurrently with other Mac OS X applications.

X11 for Mac OS X offers a complete X Window System implementation for running X11-based applications on Mac OS X. Based on the de facto-standard for X11, the open source XFree86 project, X11 for Mac OS X is compatible, fast and fully integrated with Mac OS X. It includes the full XFree86 4.4 distribution including a window server, libraries and basic utilities such as xterm."
 

Dave See

New member
Greetings,

out of curiosity, does anyone around here use open source, and to what extend? What are your experiences?

A friend of mine did the hard switch and has everything from open source now, complete.

I think I will get myself one of those Live DVD's, Knoppix, and see how my hardware can get along with it, as I have some doubts about specialities like Matrox Parhelia and available drivers.

In general, I find the idea and concept of open source excellent.

Alternative to Adobe would be Gimp, however, I have no experience with gimp and do not know to what extend it is comparable to photoshop.
Hiyas,

Been a while since my last posts, yet still using FOSS exclusively for processing. I've (re)compiled Dave Coffin's `dcraw` and ImageMagick with LCMS support for ICC profiles. Simply, you may get sRGB and AdobeRGB profiles "openly", but camera or RAW-specific have additional costs... yours, and the s/w+time, or "canned"(Jos. Holmes' or JFI).

I am still "Old School", so C/PS is not in the workflow... I use the FOSS Gimp app for JPEGS only. Everything else is scripted FOSS with only minor interaction, including full rez 16bit TIFFs(70MB).

While seduced often by my friends with C1 Pro on their Apple systems, and so too with C/PS and Lightroom... I've got file managment down in FOSS... and my TIFFs are good enough, if not cleaner, for those in post-proc roles, who get them ;)

I run Fedora 5... for now.

If you're an Adobe junkie, FOSS ain't your fix... and likely never.

rgds,
Dave

PS-LightZone /was/ Linux capable, but they've dropped it. OK by me: Java isn't FOSS, nor effective code, in practice.
 
out of curiosity, does anyone around here use open source, and to what extend? What are your experiences?

A friend of mine did the hard switch and has everything from open source now, complete.

I think I will get myself one of those Live DVD's, Knoppix, and see how my hardware can get along with it, as I have some doubts about specialities like Matrox Parhelia and available drivers.

In general, I find the idea and concept of open source excellent.

Alternative to Adobe would be Gimp, however, I have no experience with gimp and do not know to what extend it is comparable to Photoshop.

I use FOSS on a daily basis for work, but I write code. And low and behold, most FOSS developers write code. Hence, for computing tasks it works great. Hence we have things like the LAMP stack and such which blow proprietary solutions out of the water.

But for photos, nothing beats Photoshop and there is no substitute for it. Using Cygwin one can run most X11 apps under windows without issues. But just because it is easy to use/set-up does not mean it is more efficient to use. For photography most FOSS sucks. The GIMP is a joke at best, or a poor mans 5th rate icon design tool.

AS for the GIMP, the tools simply sucks. It lacks features I use regularly and it has an awful user interface. The GIMP is truly a good icon design tool and a miserable photo manipulation tool.

At the end of the day, the real question is what is the best tool for the task at hand? If it is relates to IT work (Information Technology work), then it is often vastly superior to proprietary solutions. But for specialized fields that most of the geeks* in IT do not touch we get inferior tools that waste a working persons time (and hence money).

some thoughts from a someone who uses open source tools daily,

Sean (who runs XP but uses Cygwin to get a real functional command line interface with proper tooling for getting work done)


*geek is complimentary term implying a love of a subject and a large amount of knowledge of said subject. Nerd is simply an insult.
 

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
... Hence we have things like the LAMP stack and such which blow proprietary solutions out of the water......
....
At the end of the day, the real question is what is the best tool for the task at hand?... .
Hi Sean,

Precisely! Agreed <wink>

BTW, I am busy setting up a LAMP server at home (personal lightweight use) and decided to build it on Ubuntu 7.04 Server. Do you reckon that it will be a good (enough) choice? Should I use the ready built LAMP server which is on the Ubuntu CD or should I hand pick and install the modules needed by myself?

Sorry for going off topic a bit.

Cheers,
 
Hi Sean,

Precisely! Agreed <wink>

BTW, I am busy setting up a LAMP server at home (personal lightweight use) and decided to build it on Ubuntu 7.04 Server. Do you reckon that it will be a good (enough) choice? Should I use the ready built LAMP server which is on the Ubuntu CD or should I hand pick and install the modules needed by myself?

Hi Cem,

Personally I use WIMP (Windows IIS MySQL PHP) at home for ease of installation and configuration. I use VMWare when I need to run Linux/BSD/... for some special reason. This is because a virtual machine on my workstation is more powerful than any of the spare computers (read as parts) lying about.

The reason I suggest WIMP is because I use Zend Studio (Pro Version for database support) with Zend Core For Oracle (free download w/ registration and it supports MySQL) as it gets everything seemlessly configured for using WIMP. Zend Core For Oracle will automatically get all the nasty parts configured and it sets it up for using the debugger in Zend Studio with a minimum of configuration work. The only caveat is that you end up using virtual hosts with IIS and have to write your code to handle both virtual (http://localhost/ab/) and non-virtual hosts (http://www.ab.com/) which is a good thing when dealing with larger corporate installs where one server cluster may support dozens or hundreds of virtual hosts. This also encourages one to use constants like PATH_SEPARATOR rather than a colon or semicolon as which is used can vary by platform. And writing platform agnostic code is a good thing.

Zend Core For Oracle also has a nice web based administrative interface which simplifies configuration. Just be forewarned that when it says to restart IIS, it really means you need to restart the World Wide Web Publishing service on XP and not IIS. This can take a while on my system, but I have way too much stuff installed to make it quick.

I would favor a baseline install without customization if you must have a Linux server as it makes upgrades simpler. Myself, I try to stay as far away from configuring servers as I can. I write code, I do not babysit hardware (which is a different and challenging field unto itself).

Some thoughts.

I hope you enjoy the new lens,

Sean
 

Dave See

New member
I use FOSS on a daily basis for work, but I write code. And low and behold, most FOSS developers write code. Hence, for computing tasks it works great. Hence we have things like the LAMP stack and such which blow proprietary solutions out of the water.

But for photos, nothing beats Photoshop and there is no substitute for it. Using Cygwin one can run most X11 apps under windows without issues. But just because it is easy to use/set-up does not mean it is more efficient to use. For photography most FOSS sucks. The GIMP is a joke at best, or a poor mans 5th rate icon design tool.

AS for the GIMP, the tools simply sucks. It lacks features I use regularly and it has an awful user interface. The GIMP is truly a good icon design tool and a miserable photo manipulation tool.

At the end of the day, the real question is what is the best tool for the task at hand? If it is relates to IT work (Information Technology work), then it is often vastly superior to proprietary solutions. But for specialized fields that most of the geeks* in IT do not touch we get inferior tools that waste a working persons time (and hence money).

some thoughts from a someone who uses open source tools daily,

Sean (who runs XP but uses Cygwin to get a real functional command line interface with proper tooling for getting work done)


*geek is complimentary term implying a love of a subject and a large amount of knowledge of said subject. Nerd is simply an insult.
Hi Sean,

Agreed on most points... agreed completely on "The GIMP". I am among you geeks-who-code, although I would not boast the cleanest ;) I got into digital by "public intervention"(read: "CD-QUALITY", and "Increased Productivity" swayed the customer who pushed image prep back on the photog).

I would never recommend "The GIMP", nor "Cinepaint", nor other FOSS apps for specialized work; however, imaging is not so specialized to exclude FOSS os, nor utilities... Being newer to digital cameras, yet not to digital imaging and film photography, I count myself lucky to have had exposure and experience with the geeky bits to understand that one must "keep the data intact", which is the stuff of IT work... whether LAMP is applied to a website, or your digital imaging workflow.... Lightroom, C1 and Picassa come to mind.

My point is: if you wish to process each frame through Adobe C/PS, then you have both a great tool, and a lot of wrist activity, even applying "actions". I do not wish to spend any time at all on an individual image, per se, unless it really warrants it. I prefer to do my work with the camera and lenses... and the odd month spent(once) collecting and coding my digital processor.

OK, so I /can/ put a "1-hour photo lab" together with BASH and varied utilities... to be fair to the OP, I am in full agreement that FOSS, Ubuntu(sic) or otherwise, will always demand/distract the majority of phtogs from her/his true flow... and system callibration, software updates, and "customer compatability"(Adobe, Quark and Apple/MS). FOSS was never meant to move mountains, but offer another view of them... no less valid.

rgds,
Dave
 
Hi Sean,

Agreed on most points...

Agreed. I was a bit sweeping. The MSFT stack has its place it can have very high performance (for a cost) in the mid-market (2-4 socket) systems. I just find the excessive use of the mouse ridiculous and their RAD tools create some really bad sites (i.e., they use a DoPostBack (sic) when the should be using GETs so that people can bookmark pages). And since I use XP I can support friends with it. But I do not have OS X and yet I can support friends with that too as Terminal yields a nice user friendly* bash shell interface. But I broke my teeth on Unix (we will ignore using LOGO and BASIC in grade school).

* Unix user friendly, not novice friendly.

agreed completely on "The GIMP". I am among you geeks-who-code, although I would not boast the cleanest ;) I got into digital by "public intervention"(read: "CD-QUALITY", and "Increased Productivity" swayed the customer who pushed image prep back on the photog).

I actually find the additional artistic control I gain a real boon. But I came into photography from the remote-sensing/computer vision side so my first real imaging work was in C++ which is not user friendly but yields near infinite control.

I came into using PS late (read PS 4) and truth be told often find the "simpler"programs rather confusing and complex as they do too much for me without telling me what they are doing. I find it rather frustrating to teach friends and family how to do things as my routes are often too technical and the simple tools do way too much at each step to integrate with my gestalt of photography. But I tend to way over-study subjects so I can work by intuition.

I would never recommend "The GIMP", nor "Cinepaint", nor other FOSS apps for specialized work; however, imaging is not so specialized to exclude FOSS os, nor utilities... Being newer to digital cameras, yet not to digital imaging and film photography, I count myself lucky to have had exposure and experience with the geeky bits to understand that one must "keep the data intact", which is the stuff of IT work... whether LAMP is applied to a website, or your digital imaging workflow.... Lightroom, C1 and Picassa come to mind.

I might recommend some of these FOSS tools for massive projects where clusters are used and the cost of development is less than licensing costs. But for a single serious user nothing beats PS. I use Dreamweaver, ImageReady, and GoLive for some things like fast and easy image maps and to visually debug machine generate HTML (I can click and element and go straight to the code). But even then, auto-generated results are almost always inferior to what can be done by hand coding for both performance and long term maintainence (sic).


My point is: if you wish to process each frame through Adobe C/PS, then you have both a great tool, and a lot of wrist activity, even applying "actions". I do not wish to spend any time at all on an individual image, per se, unless it really warrants it. I prefer to do my work with the camera and lenses... and the odd month spent(once) collecting and coding my digital processor.

I spend most of photo time either shooting or in cutting room work (getting a better shot or choosing what to work on) rather than working on direct manipulation. But that is the difference between a good and great photographer: it is not what they shoot, but what they let you see and knowing what they should let you see.

But I will also admit to having spent thousands of enjoyable hours tweaking images in PS while I was learning the tool. But that was long before I had developed my current vision and I was still trapped in the remote sensing aspect and spent more time analyzing details than I spent actually seeing the result.


OK, so I /can/ put a "1-hour photo lab" together with BASH and varied utilities... to be fair to the OP, I am in full agreement that FOSS, Ubuntu(sic) or otherwise, will always demand/distract the majority of phtogs from her/his true flow... and system callibration, software updates, and "customer compatability"(Adobe, Quark and Apple/MS). FOSS was never meant to move mountains, but offer another view of them... no less valid.


A lot of FOSS is aimed at hiking the mountain one step at a time rather than riding over the pass on a highway in a Mercedes. At the same time, it is easier to get exactly where you want to go even if it is at times more work.

enjoy,

Sean (who has not had enough sleep, a long week, and now that Friday is over is ready to start the work week on Saturday)
 
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