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How do you feel about critiques on your images?

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Rachel Foster

New member
Ever since I got interested in photography, I've been interested in how people respond to criticiscm/critiques. I belong to another photo board as well so I've seen a variety of styles and responses. It goes everything from "tell me how wonderful my stuff is and otherwise shut up" to "I'm grateful for any feedback I can get."

My own approach is closer to the latter. I appreciate every comment I get whether I agree with it or not. I've learned a tremendous amount that way. Sometimes the feedback is not consistent with what I'm trying to do or I simply don't agree with. However, even that has value if it makes me think. Sometimes, critiques I don't agree with help me see things in a new way, or in other words, have heuristic value. The only feedback I have little patience with comes in the form of numerical ratings with no comment. If you don't like my image, fine, but at least tell me why.

I was wondering how other people see the critique/criticism issue. What's your philosophy on this? What do you want out of critiques? How do you handle those seeking praise but calling it request for critiques?
 
M

Michael Fontana

pro member
Rachel Foster said:
......How do you handle those seeking praise but calling it request for critiques?
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Hi Rachel

basically, I ignore them, as in my book, a forum's goal is exchange, discussion, confrontation and not singing a praise.
Of course everbody has easier approch to certain themes, and a more difficult to other ones. That' s natural.

(This doesn't means, that if I'm not responding, i think someone is looking for praise, as quite often, times can be short, and doing a good critique can be time-consuming, if taken seriously.)
 
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Rachel Foster

New member
Critiques can be extremely time consuming. I'm in awe of the time many people here devote to them, particularly Asher. There is also a certain knowledge base required for doing good critiques.

I think one of the problems with praise-seekers is that many (most?) don't realize that's what they are. I'm not sure what to do with that aspect of it.
 
M

Michael Fontana

pro member
Rachel Foster said:
Critiques can be extremely time consuming. I'm in awe of the time many people here devote to them, particularly Asher. There is also a certain knowledge base required for doing good critiques.

I think one of the problems with praise-seekers is that many (most?) don't realize that's what they are. I'm not sure what to do with that aspect of it.
Click to expand...

just let them find it out themselves - you can't help them otherwise, as with a contsructive but honest critique, the praise-seekers will be offsett.

And yes, Asher is devoting days, weeks, well monthes.
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Michael,

I do spend a lot of time on other folk's work. I hope it's well-received. However, there's more value than just for the photographer who made the picture. We should be looking at things from different perspectives and that's where we can help each other. Critique for me is, in part, also an investment to our understanding of "What "art in photography might be and how it might be improved".

Every so often I may succumb to give praise too easily. However, I do hope that I'm tough and relevent enough to make up for that.

One caveat about reading critique of one's own work: It's your child, your photograph. You imagined it and brought it into the world. Still, sifting through river bed pebbles for that rich nugget can be worthwhile.

So it's not just writing critique that hard, it's also really tough to be open enough to ideas outside one's experience without being a sponge for other folks opinions.

Asher
 
Cem_Usakligil

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member
Rachel Foster said:
Ever since I got interested in photography, I've been interested in how people respond to criticiscm/critiques. I belong to another photo board as well so I've seen a variety of styles and responses. It goes everything from "tell me how wonderful my stuff is and otherwise shut up" to "I'm grateful for any feedback I can get."
Click to expand...
Hi Rachel,

You know how much attention I put into my C&C and I try to be as honest and constructive as possible. Here in OPF, it works most of the time. But I had to leave my local photography club last year because I came to realize that no-one was really open for real C&C. When I told them what I really thought of some of their pictures, I have ended up angering some members and I decided to quit eventually. It's a pity really.

Cheers,
 
R

Rachel Foster

New member
Cem, you are a super star when it comes to critiquing. I have learned a tremendous amount from you and many others. I hesitate to name names because I fear leaving someone out. There have been so many who have generously given to me their time and expertise.

I know it's terribly frustrating to spend time and energy giving a thoughtful critique and having it dismissed out of hand. I think, for that reason, it's prudent to be discriminating whom one offers critiques to. At the same time, there are people who lose out on help because of this.

Especially on a site like this, where it's on a volunteer basis, it can be very problematic.
 
M

Michael Fontana

pro member
Asher Kelman said:
Michael,

I do spend a lot of time on other folk's work. I hope it's well-received. However, there's more value than just for the photographer who made the picture. We should be looking at things from different perspectives and that's where we can help each other. Critique for me is, in part, also an investment to our understanding of "What "art in photography might be and how it might be improved".

Every so often I may succumb to give praise too easily. However, I do hope that I'm tough and relevent enough to make up for that.

One caveat about reading critique of one's own work: It's your child, your photograph. You imagined it and brought it into the world. Still, sifting through river bed pebbles for that rich nugget can be worthwhile.

So it's not just writing critique that hard, it's also really tough to be open enough to ideas outside one's experience without being a sponge for other folks opinions.

Asher
Click to expand...

Yes, Asher

as Rachel, I admire the time and energy you spend on other folk's work. I don't think I could do as much - but then my situation is a bit different, I just can't spend that much time on it.

And yes, I think I understand quite some of your points pretty well, meanwhile "What "art in photography might be" looks to me to be a pretty academic question.

I personally like much more that you respond - today - with another picture. Great!!
Let's use the language of pictures to talk about and with pictures and let them talk with themselves!

There's lots of arts °rumours° in OPF, at the end, for me it comes down to the "basic" point of beeing °touched, inspiried, hurt, getting a new perspective, etc.°

That's the point and it's a quite a lot already, more than most of us can achieve, if we' re honest:

I like much more a really good photography than a mediocre fine art object.
 
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Wendy Thurman

New member
The critical process is extremely important. I think that an honest appraisal by one's peers is part and parcel of the creative process; that process is only enhanced by deconstruction and honest discussion. I know from the drawing classes I have taken that criticism is integral to the curriculum. The "it sucks, sell your camera" sort of thing is rife on the internet and it accomplishes nothing other than gratuitous bashing. That is one of the reasons I like this site and almost never post outside of it- the members here are peers and genuinely care about the integrity of the process. It isn't just about what didn't work but also about what did- and the why of these factors. I know I am my harshest critic and get frustrated with my images. A dispassionate and constructive second-party opinion- whether negative or positive- serves only to improve the process as it works within me.

Wendy
 
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Kathy Rappaport

pro member
Ego

I know for me, on some boards (not here) a critique is really not wanted. Much posting exists to say "look at what I did - aren't I great" becuase honesty and truth isn't valued. I have learned a lot here in the exchange.

All that said, that once I put out a sign with my name on it, I also feel that I can't have the public accessible to view my images put out for C&C. Not because I don't value the opportunity to learn, but, there is much competition who are waiting to jump at the opportunity to prove you aren't wotrh your fees. And so when you have spent your fortune trying to make a living at photography you must tread carefully.
 
J

janet Smith

pro member
The critique's I've received here have helped me enormously, mostly by helping to keep me motivated and working hard, or to think of another way of looking at a subject, another technique to try.

Occassionally I struggle to appraise my own work dispassionately - being influenced by the feeling I had when I took the photograph, honest critique has helped me to evaluate my work and to keep striving for something better/different, an endless search I think.....

No matter how skilled (or not) we may be, there is always another way to look at something, that for me is the importance of critique. I just wish I was better at giving it, but I'll try with that too.
 
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Rachel Foster

New member
A really important point is the dispassionate critique of one's own work. I can't do it. Maybe it comes with experience but I never pick out my best images.
 
K

Ken Tanaka

pro member
Wendy Thurman said:
The critical process is extremely important. ...
Click to expand...

Hi Wendy,
Well, yes and no. "Yes" if you're just learning to use a camera and/or the still toddling with the photographic framing process. "Yes", also, if you're trying to create images that convey a specific message or invoke a particular feeling from viewers.

But "no" if you're just trying to use a camera to document your life. You know better than anyone whether or not you're capturing your children's early moments, mementos of your trip to _______ , the peaceful feeling of your garden on a summer Sunday morning. Beyond obvious basic technical suggestions "feedback" on such personal imagery really doesn't count for much in practical terms. You know if you're doing well or not. You don't need me to tell you anything.

Exhibit A:
Wendy Thurman said:
I know I am my harshest critic and get frustrated with my images.
Click to expand...

Most camera owners are just that: camera owners. They're not photographers. They're not artists. They've no desire to be so, either. They just want to take good snaps, and that just takes studied practice...something also beyond most camera owners' intentions. (Every time you see a flash fire from the seats of a stadium at a night event you're seeing a vote from someone who has no idea how to use their camera...they just want to press the button and get a memento.)

But back to the main subject, photo critiques are overrated particularly on relatively anonymous public venues such as Internet sites. The general public's sensibilities are very basic, particularly at 72 dpi. The average person is going to respond positively to characteristics that are very pedestrian (i.e. prettiness, balanced compositions, sentimentality) and negatively to anything outside their immediate comprehension or visual comfort. In 2006 Mike Johnston created a sadly hilarious mock Internet critique of famous photographs. It's spot-on to the types of responses that these images would probably really receive if posted on most forums.

OPF -is- a nice place. Asher and the moderators work quite hard to keep the place a constructive and congenial venue, mostly by enforcing the "real name" policy and vigorously monitoring the (relatively low) traffic. Aside from an occasional posting on a Leica forum (which, frankly, I know better than to do but sometimes can't control myself) and an occasional article for Mike Johnston's The Online Photographer, OPF is the only place I post, too. More time with a camera, more time with photographs, less time on keyboard. Photography isn't spelled QWERTY.

BTW, nice to have you here, Wendy. Your location tag invokes dangerous and exotic visions.
 
nicolas claris

nicolas claris

OPF Co-founder/Administrator
Ken Tanaka said:
Hi Wendy,
Well, yes and no. "Yes" if you're just learning to use a camera and/or the still toddling with the photographic framing process. "Yes", also, if you're trying to create images that convey a specific message or invoke a particular feeling from viewers.

But "no" if you're just trying to use a camera to document your life. You know better than anyone whether or not you're capturing your children's early moments, mementos of your trip to _______ , the peaceful feeling of your garden on a summer Sunday morning. Beyond obvious basic technical suggestions "feedback" on such personal imagery really doesn't count for much in practical terms. You know if you're doing well or not. You don't need me to tell you anything.

Exhibit A:

Most camera owners are just that: camera owners. They're not photographers. They're not artists. They've no desire to be so, either. They just want to take good snaps, and that just takes studied practice...something also beyond most camera owners' intentions. (Every time you see a flash fire from the seats of a stadium at a night event you're seeing a vote from someone who has no idea how to use their camera...they just want to press the button and get a memento.)

But back to the main subject, photo critiques are overrated particularly on relatively anonymous public venues such as Internet sites. The general public's sensibilities are very basic, particularly at 72 dpi. The average person is going to respond positively to characteristics that are very pedestrian (i.e. prettiness, balanced compositions, sentimentality) and negatively to anything outside their immediate comprehension or visual comfort. In 2006 Mike Johnston created a sadly hilarious mock Internet critique of famous photographs. It's spot-on to the types of responses that these images would probably really receive if posted on most forums.

OPF -is- a nice place. Asher and the moderators work quite hard to keep the place a constructive and congenial venue, mostly by enforcing the "real name" policy and vigorously monitoring the (relatively low) traffic. Aside from an occasional posting on a Leica forum (which, frankly, I know better than to do but sometimes can't control myself) and an occasional article for Mike Johnston's The Online Photographer, OPF is the only place I post, too. More time with a camera, more time with photographs, less time on keyboard. Photography isn't spelled QWERTY.

BTW, nice to have you here, Wendy. Your location tag invokes dangerous and exotic visions.
Click to expand...

Neither AZERTY ;-)

I tend to agree with you Ken on this statement.
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Michael Fontana said:
Yes, Asher

........And yes, I think I understand quite some of your points pretty well, meanwhile "What "art in photography might be" looks to me to be a pretty academic question.
Click to expand...

Michael,

You are quite right, I take some questions too seriously, LOL! Will Thompson's overly broad "attack" on the Fine Art Photography concept was in truth aimed at messiahs and gurus with high priced paths to photographic Nirvana. So we visited that debate again, worthwhile but perhaps at the expense of new pictures!!

Michael Fontana said:
I personally like much more that you respond - today - with another picture. Great!!
Let's use the language of pictures to talk about and with pictures and let them talk with themselves!
Click to expand...

Excellent advice! I admit, sometimes, I'm too embedded in the words. This community is a great place where we can have you guys, like human GPS and other sensors, help steer OPF, allowing a richer experience. It's much appreciated!

Michael Fontana said:
There's lots of arts °rumours° in OPF, at the end, for me it comes down to the "basic" point of beeing °touched, inspiried, hurt, getting a new perspective, etc.°
Click to expand...
.....in a nutseshell!

Asher
 
W

Wendy Thurman

New member
Ken Tanaka said:
Hi Wendy,
Well, yes and no. "Yes" if you're just learning to use a camera and/or the still toddling with the photographic framing process. "Yes", also, if you're trying to create images that convey a specific message or invoke a particular feeling from viewers.

But "no" if you're just trying to use a camera to document your life. You know better than anyone whether or not you're capturing your children's early moments, mementos of your trip to _______ , the peaceful feeling of your garden on a summer Sunday morning. Beyond obvious basic technical suggestions "feedback" on such personal imagery really doesn't count for much in practical terms. You know if you're doing well or not. You don't need me to tell you anything.

Exhibit A:

Most camera owners are just that: camera owners. They're not photographers. They're not artists. They've no desire to be so, either. They just want to take good snaps, and that just takes studied practice...something also beyond most camera owners' intentions. (Every time you see a flash fire from the seats of a stadium at a night event you're seeing a vote from someone who has no idea how to use their camera...they just want to press the button and get a memento.)

But back to the main subject, photo critiques are overrated particularly on relatively anonymous public venues such as Internet sites. The general public's sensibilities are very basic, particularly at 72 dpi. The average person is going to respond positively to characteristics that are very pedestrian (i.e. prettiness, balanced compositions, sentimentality) and negatively to anything outside their immediate comprehension or visual comfort. In 2006 Mike Johnston created a sadly hilarious mock Internet critique of famous photographs. It's spot-on to the types of responses that these images would probably really receive if posted on most forums.

OPF -is- a nice place. Asher and the moderators work quite hard to keep the place a constructive and congenial venue, mostly by enforcing the "real name" policy and vigorously monitoring the (relatively low) traffic. Aside from an occasional posting on a Leica forum (which, frankly, I know better than to do but sometimes can't control myself) and an occasional article for Mike Johnston's The Online Photographer, OPF is the only place I post, too. More time with a camera, more time with photographs, less time on keyboard. Photography isn't spelled QWERTY.

BTW, nice to have you here, Wendy. Your location tag invokes dangerous and exotic visions.
Click to expand...

Well said, Ken. There's a photograph I posted on this site that I had originally posted on a Canon site- Afghan Bloodsport, the dogfighting image. One of the forum members responded that images of that sort had no place in a travel thread where beautiful waterfalls and scenic vistas should be featured- and he never looked at the image!

And thanks for the link :)

Wendy
 
Asher Kelman

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief
Wendy Thurman said:
.....There's a photograph I posted on this site that I had originally posted on a Canon site- Afghan Bloodsport, the dogfighting image. One of the forum members responded that images of that sort had no place in a travel thread where beautiful waterfalls and scenic vistas should be featured- and he never looked at the image!
Click to expand...

Wendy,

It may be hard to believe but a lot of folk grow up never visiting a farm or seeing an animal butchered. If one travels through the villages of many people in the country side and some towns, slaughtering animals is part of real life. I've seen a woman petting a rabbit then wringing it's neck and within minutes the fur is off, as if it was a one piece suit. Shortly thereafter, that sweet pet she was fondling is dressed, ready for market! In some villages I've seen children call their own chickens after an elder tells them who's pet is being sold! Each child brings his particular chicken, (one he or she has tended to since it was a chick), to be sold and dispatched.

A While ago, Leonardo, I believe, shared a picture of a severed head of a bull. It was quite gross but it's what "is" and that does not need parsing for many folk as they also live on the edge of survival too.

Asher
 
R

Rachel Foster

New member
I'm one of those who will never look. All I ask is a warning in the title line, please. I'm making no statement about where such images belong, just that they make me ill.
 
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Wendy Thurman

New member
I don't- and won't- do gore. Nor will I engage in shock value. What I will do is shoot images that may not fit with Western cultural norms and I won't make any apologies for doing so. I haven't really defined myself photographically- once upon a time I did do so and defined myself as an underwater photographer- but that time has passed.

Now I just shoot what I see, from the perspective of what I experience. I admit that much of that isn't going to be pretty.

Wendy
 
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Rachel Foster

New member
Wendy, just to make sure...I never questioned the value or taste of such images in general, nor yours specifically. I'm a huge softie when it comes to animals. While many folk need such reminders (thus giving an importance to such images), I don't.

I never meant to sound critical. I'm just hypersensitive to such visuals.
 
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