Quality of Photography in OPF improving or not?

Kathy Rappaport · Jun 20, 2008

Well said

Asher,

I repeatedly have commented that I believe that my participation in OPF has caused me to take a quantum leap in the quality of my work as a photographer. My knowledge about gear, lighting, composing and post processing is so far ahead of where it was a year and two years ago. The encouragement and education are invaluable here - not to mention the wonderful friendships I have made both locally and globally mean so much. It is really exciting to be away for a few weeks and come back to see lots of new posts by new members.

Asher Kelman · Oct 28, 2008

Kathy Rappaport said:
Asher,

I repeatedly have commented that I believe that my participation in OPF has caused me to take a quantum leap in the quality of my work as a photographer. My knowledge about gear, lighting, composing and post processing is so far ahead of where it was a year and two years ago. The encouragement and education are invaluable here - not to mention the wonderful friendships I have made both locally and globally mean so much. It is really exciting to be away for a few weeks and come back to see lots of new posts by new members.

Kathy who would have imagine two years ago that you would have a working studio and that Leonardo would be high up in Bolivia doing stock photography, Georg Baumann would have set up a superbly equipped studio in Ireland and Nicolas Claris, a 1DsIII photographer would be a featured Sinar Photographer?

100% crop:

leonardobarreto.com · Oct 28, 2008

It is difficult to keep up with all the posts, especially the ones with images... also going to shoot things to post... some do it quietly like Will...

leonardobarreto.com · Oct 28, 2008

an idea...

I have an idea, why don't we make a corner where we could post our images and expect everybody to be candid about them. I remember my days of student at ICP how the teachers had no mercy... I don't think we could do it to non-volunteer posters because things could get ugly, but what about a place to go and face the critical critics....

Asher Kelman · Oct 28, 2008

A Dedicated Critique and Image Analysis Forum: No holes barred!

leonardobarreto.com said:
I have an idea, why don't we make a corner where we could post our images and expect everybody to be candid about them. I remember my days of student at ICP how the teachers had no mercy... I don't think we could do it to non-volunteer posters because things could get ugly, but what about a place to go and face the critical critics....

Leonardo,

I would like us to push for an even higher standard of photography but you, others and myself will have to really put loving critical effort in the pictures posted. I would hope this would retain more dedicated photographers.

I think you mean you would like a dedicated a place where all the variously posted images (in the different locations in OPF), get real critique. Maybe we post an image and cross post for critique without mercy. Is the following your concept?

Pictures would still be posted according to category such as Portrait, Landscape, Event and so forth but we'd benefit having some of these new pictures cross posted for in depth no holes barred critique in a new forum, Critique and Image Analysis Think about how this would work. When someone posts in say Landscape, the picture would also appear in the new forum for no holes barred critique and the resulting comment would appear both in the Critique Forum and in the Landscape Forum. This way, all pictures for Critique would be in one place.

I like the idea but would appreciate opinions.

Asher

Cem_Usakligil · Oct 28, 2008

Asher Kelman said:
....I think you mean you would like a dedicated a place where all the variously posted images (in the different locations in OPF), get real critique. Maybe we post an image and cross post for critique without mercy. Is the following your concept?
..

Hi Asher,

As I wrote in another thread yesterday, all the critique I give here is real critique. I may not pour over all aspects of any given picture but I choose a couple of aspects and tell what I really think about them honestly. If I really dislike a picture, I stay away from C&C, as simple as that.

I am a member of a very popular Dutch photography forum where harsh, "real" critique is dispended for pictures posted. Each picture -how nice it may be- is burnt down to the ground by the next member who thinks that the picture just misses out on one or more of the many aspects of photography. Dutch are very critical by nature and they like to express it without any holds barred. This makes the sphere at the forum rather inbearable to anyone but the Dutch. I consider myself a citizen of the world with wide experience on many different cultures. That's why I know for sure that that kind of sphere here at OPF would drive away 75% of our members, at the least.

So what Leonardo might be looking for is a group of private coaches and/or mentors who guide him by providing "real" critique. These people will know about his photography style, personal goals, etc and then they can really help him improve himself. To that end, one can decide to work with a private tutor/mentor such as Ben Lifson. It won't happen in a public forum like OPF.

My idea would be to establish a closed-circuit group of mentors whose members are established names in the industry and who are selected carefully. One can then enroll in a tuitition program (which should and cannot not be free of charge) to be privately guided by this group. Behind "closed doors", not publicly in OPF. We cannot afford to have a public judging as in the likes of Idols or X-Factor where the hopes of anybody of becoming a good photographer one day would be buried alive.

Cheers,

Asher Kelman · Oct 28, 2008

Cem_Usakligil said:
Hi Asher,

As I wrote in another thread yesterday, all the critique I give here is real critique. I may not pour over all aspects of any given picture but I choose a couple of aspects and tell what I really think about them honestly. If I really dislike a picture, I stay away from C&C, as simple as that.

I am a member of a very popular Dutch photography forum where harsh, "real" critique is dispended for pictures posted. Each picture -how nice it may be- is burnt down to the ground by the next member who thinks that the picture just misses out on one or more of the many aspects of photography. Dutch are very critical by nature and they like to express it without any holds barred. This makes the sphere at the forum rather inbearable to anyone but the Dutch. I consider myself a citizen of the world with wide experience on many different cultures. That's why I know for sure that that kind of sphere here at OPF would drive away 75% of our members, at the least.

So what Leonardo might be looking for is a group of private coaches and/or mentors who guide him by providing "real" critique. These people will know about his photography style, personal goals, etc and then they can really help him improve himself. To that end, one can decide to work with a private tutor/mentor such as Ben Lifson. It won't happen in a public forum like OPF.

My idea would be to establish a closed-circuit group of mentors whose members are established names in the industry and who are selected carefully. One can then enroll in a tuitition program (which should and cannot not be free of charge) to be privately guided by this group. Behind "closed doors", not publicly in OPF. We cannot afford to have a public judging as in the likes of Idols or X-Factor where the hopes of anybody of becoming a good photographer one day would be buried alive.

Cheers,

Thanks Cem for you wisdom and experience. So let's take all I've written and delete the "no holds barred" aspect. I'll now work on setting up a mentoring/critique service and will take comments as PM's off line. So now the idea would be to consolidate all Critiques in one forum. The threads would still be where they belong according to type of picture, landscape, portrait, sports etc but by linking would appear also in the one common Critique forum.

We need to get away from the rigidity of users who bookmark only certain places in OPF and therefore would miss all the wonderful new pictures! One common forum will get more people together!

Asher

leonardobarreto.com · Oct 28, 2008

I agree with the notion that it is a good practice to post positive comments or move on leaving nothing in case there is non to be made. That is why my proposal was to have a "room" where people went to get the other comments, and I don't see why it had to be private.

Asher, if you want I can just open a thread with an image inviting frank criticism to see what happens, does not have to be a formal sub-forum, and see if others dear enter with me...

We can call it "THE DUTCH EXPERIMENT"...

Cem_Usakligil · Oct 28, 2008

leonardobarreto.com said:
I agree with the notion that it is a good practice to post positive comments or move on leaving nothing in case there is non to be made. That is why my proposal was to have a "room" where people went to get the other comments, and I don't see why it had to be private.

Asher, if you want I can just open a thread with an image inviting frank criticism to see what happens, does not have to be a formal sub-forum, and see if others dear enter with me...

We can call it "THE DUTCH EXPERIMENT"...

Hi Leonardo,

There is no way we are going to call it that! LOL

I am not convinced that you will get the "frank" criticism in the way you want to receive it.

1) People like myself will give frank critique anytime no matter in which forum
2) People like myself may stay away from giving critique if you post utter rubbish
3) People like myself may be convinced to still give C&C despite point 2, only if there is an incentive. Let's face it. Life is hard enough as it is. Why should I be involved in activities which create "negative" emotions in the process? After all, I am not your tutor and/or mentor, am I?

Just my Euro 0.02

Cheers,

leonardobarreto.com · Oct 28, 2008

This is interesting already ... "Why should I be involved in activities which create "negative" emotions in the process? After all, I am not your tutor and/or mentor, am I?"

There are two issues here, first. You give advice, so you are my tutor and/or mentor when you do so, other wise you would not post at all, after all OPF -or myself- are not paying you for it.

You just don't want to deal with negative emotions, but at the same time you consider the advice as positive since it is something a tutor or mentor would give, not negative at all but something someone even pays for.

If we comment on the photographers that are doing things well we don't help to improve the work of those of us that are making errors... it would be as if we decide to only say that the emperor is dressed when he is not naked. If he is, we would say nothing...

Cem_Usakligil · Oct 28, 2008

leonardobarreto.com said:
There are two issues here, first. You give advice, so you are my tutor and/or mentor when you do so, other wise you would not post at all, after all OPF -or myself- are not paying you for it.

You just don't want to deal with negative emotions, but at the same time you consider the advice as positive since it is something a tutor or mentor would give, not negative at all but something someone even pays for..

Hi Leonardo,

I really hate getting involved in a dialog like this, it is like a ping pong match. But here is my return anyway. After this, I won't discuss it any further. Feel free to write back nevertheless.

What I was trying to point out is that there is a difference between the cordial advice I provide here daily to different people and the kind of advice I would be giving someone if I were his/her tutor and/or mentor.

The first one is without any obligations, I freely dispense my advice. The receiver is free to do whatever he/she wants to do with it, he/she can simply ignore it. I am not responsible for making that person better in any manner.

The relationship in the second situation is different. There is commitment and a mutual responsibility. I would then be responsible in making you better and you would be responsible in complying to the best of your abilities.

Next, the matter of payment. I have mentioned "incentive", which is not only money but can be anything. I have a couple of friends whom I personally tutor on photography, and it pleases me to see them improve day by day. That is my incentive. However, I cannot do this kind of intensive tutoring for countless others here in OPF. That would be impossible for anybody.

leonardobarreto.com said:
..If we comment on the photographers that are doing things well we don't help to improve the work of those of us that are making errors... it would be as if we decide to only say that the emperor is dressed when he is not naked. If he is, we would say nothing...

You know quite well that I provide C&C on a daily basis for the good parts as well as the bad parts which need improvement. I would not tell somebody that he is doing something wrong continuously if he/she keeps at it after the first couple of C&Cs. That is the difference between free advice and tutoring. That's why we have professionals such as Ben Lifson doing the latter.

Remember, there is no such thing as a free lunch, you only get what you metaphorically "pay" for.

Cheers,

Asher Kelman · Oct 28, 2008

Cem_Usakligil said:
Hi Leonardo,

I really hate getting involved in a dialog like this, it is like a ping pong match. But here is my return anyway. After this, I won't discuss it any further. Feel free to write back nevertheless.

What I was trying to point out is that there is a difference between the cordial advice I provide here daily to different people and the kind of advice I would be giving someone if I were his/her tutor and/or mentor.

The first one is without any obligations, I freely dispense my advice. The receiver is free to do whatever he/she wants to do with it, he/she can simply ignore it. I am not responsible for making that person better in any manner.

The relationship in the second situation is different. There is commitment and a mutual responsibility. I would then be responsible in making you better and you would be responsible in complying to the best of your abilities.

This is beautiful writing. In the first there is not much of a mutual contact beyond my saying "Be nice to the others in the tour bus!" In the second instance there is a committed relationship! We have both an unwritten, but clearly understood agreement to follow through past obstacles, misunderstandings and errors.

Next, the matter of payment. I have mentioned "incentive", which is not only money but can be anything. I have a couple of friends whom I personally tutor on photography, and it pleases me to see them improve day by day. That is my incentive. However, I cannot do this kind of intensive tutoring for countless others here in OPF. That would be impossible for anybody.

Cem_Usakligil said:
You know quite well that I provide C&C on a daily basis for the good parts as well as the bad parts which need improvement. I would not tell somebody that he is doing something wrong continuously if he/she keeps at it after the first couple of C&Cs. That is the difference between free advice and tutoring. That's why we have professionals such as Ben Lifson doing the latter.

Yes you do give critique: the good and the harder to hear. Still I understand Leonardo's comments. Art schools have some notorious critique sessions which can be devastating. In fact they are part of a book on "Why Art Cannot be Taught" by James Elkins. Don't bother to buy it to to learn anything for your photography; it's of no benefit for that! However, it does harshly reject the value of the severe methods of critique sessions in art schools as often useless and destructive.

However, I can see that we can do better for critique and Yes, Leonardo you are right we should be tougher and really drill down into the picture more. With a disciplined guide to C&C we might do much better in a new forum just for that.

Asher

Cem_Usakligil · Oct 28, 2008

Asher Kelman said:
...However, I can see that we can do better for critique and Yes, Leonardo you are right we should be tougher and really drill down into the picture more. With a disciplined guide to C&C we might do much better in a new forum just for that.

Agreed

. BTW, that's why I wrote my small guide to C&C some time ago. It's just a start, but a start nevertheless.

Cheers,

leonardobarreto.com · Oct 28, 2008

Asher,

I think that you summarized it well. I have to admit that it is not a b&w issue but more like 18% gray...

Leonardo

ps I have 9 images up for sale now on alamy, I think I will have fun doing stock... don't know if any will sell ...

Cem_Usakligil · Oct 28, 2008

leonardobarreto.com said:
Asher,

I think that you summarized it well. I have to admit that it is not a b&w issue but more like 18% gray...

Leonardo

ps I have 9 images up for sale now on alamy, I think I will have fun doing stock... don't know if any will sell ...

Hi Leonardo,

I may have sounded a bit hard in my reaction to you but that was what you wanted to hear anyway, isn't it? (pun intended, LOL). I will toast to 18% gray, hear, hear!

BTW, I have been following your progress on Alamy and I hope the best for you, I really do

. The 9 pics are quite nice but it may be a while before they are found amongst the 13 million others. May luck be with you!

Cheers,

Cem_Usakligil · Oct 28, 2008

Moved off topic posts

Hi,

FYI: I have moved three off topic posts about Alamy by Asher, Leonardo and myself to this thread.

Cheers,

leonardobarreto.com · Oct 29, 2008

Ok, going back to the original topic, -but in another direction- I would like to know what you think about other people commenting and critiquing you work.

I was thinking about that and first I thought: "I'm not in need to reassurance, I know when I have one of my best or worst images when I see it...", and that I could be a guest at the Dutch Forum any time.

But, when looking deeper I realized that I do care when someone comments my work positively or not.

What about you Asher, do yo have photo self steam problems or could you stand for a big looking glass?

Do you have images that keep for yourself and never post here?

For some it is even harder to comment on other peoples work... and some can't have any feedback at all....

Andrew Stannard · Oct 29, 2008

Personally I value all comments that come back about my work - good and bad. From an artistic point of view I don't think it is reasonable to expect everyone to like your work, it is after all a very subjective medium.

I'll admit to being pleased when I get positive feedback and in truth negative feedback may put me briefly on the defensive, but looking back I think it is negative comments that have encouraged me to improve and develop as a photographer. On a forum such as this if one puts forward an image for critique then it is only reasonable to expect the good and the bad.

I have plenty of images that never see the light of day beyond my own monitor. Some of them are just bad and some might have merit for others, but not for me - for me photography is an emotional experience and if an image doesn't work for me then I am reluctant to let others see it.

As for critiquing others I do sometimes struggle - I know what I like and what I don't like, but understanding why and articulating why is not always a straightforward task. It is also difficult to know how others will react to negative feedback, for some it may discourage them - in these cases it is better not to comment?

Just some of my thoughts,

Rachel Foster · Oct 29, 2008

I also value all comments, and consider every comment I receive carefully. However, some I discard. For those that seem to be consistent with my "vision" I attempt -- as best I can -- to implement the advice. The thing is, I develop at my own pace via my own path. I am still trying to correct problems brought to my attention a full year ago.

One of the difficulties with mentor-mentee relationships is that the mentor might not understand the student's learning style, strengths, or weaknesses. This can lead to a feeling of frustration that the student has not done -- or possibly can not do -- what the teacher clearly knows s/he needs to do.

In essence, a successful student-teacher match will have a lot to do with trust, on the part of both mentor and mentee. But, oh when it works........

Quality of Photography in OPF improving or not?

Kathy Rappaport

pro member

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief

leonardobarreto.com

pro member

leonardobarreto.com

pro member

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief

leonardobarreto.com

pro member

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member

leonardobarreto.com

pro member

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member

Asher Kelman

OPF Owner/Editor-in-Chief

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member

leonardobarreto.com

pro member

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member

Cem_Usakligil

Well-known member

leonardobarreto.com

pro member

Andrew Stannard

pro member

Rachel Foster

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